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[RockRaines]

wow.

 

im going to go out on the limb and say that this team's got enough f***ing offense.

 

let's hold onto our young pitchers and take our chances with clutch cintron and d-stud uribe. this team does not need tejeda, not at that price tag (both for what we would give up and his salary)

I would trade anyone not named BMAC

[Flash Tizzle]

How do you figure? B-Mac still hasnt really proven himself in the bigs and everybody in our starting rotation is still locked up for next season. Buehrle is the closest one to f/a if im correct and id hope we would resign him of all our SP's. Also we have many other SP prospects too... Phillips and Haeger dominating AAA and Broadway, Lumsden, and to a lesser extent Liotta in AA.

Our starting rotation needs a shakeup before next season. No way in hell I expect everything to remain as it is. Someone needs to go.

 

I wouldn't exactly imply our collection of starting pitching prospects makes McCarthy expendable. I'll be willing to bet perhaps one (Lumsden) could ever have a ceiling high as Brandon. Even then it's too early to determine whether or not he can be depended upon.

 

We're not Minnesota. There isn't some machine underneath our stadium capable of producing pitching talent at a consistent rate. Our general manager hasn't exactly pulled a future Cy-young, closer, and a 4th starter for a catcher forced out. You can't just trade McCarthy, even for Tejada. If we're talking about an outfield prospect -- a position we've atleast produced average talent -- I can see Williams taking a chance; as he did with Vazquez.

 

Any move involving McCarthy would bite us in the ASS. For the love of God, if we're trading McCarthy might as well not have a minor league system. Wouldn't it be good for our payroll to have a SP earning less than one million when his counterparts in Garland and Garcia are raping us for 8+ million?

[daa84]

what most people fail to realize is that brandon is still 22, the same age as broadway, and just a year older than mcculloch. you can't forget how fast he flew through the minors, and into the majors.

Here is the game by game breakdown for Brandon at each level.

 

Low A: 15 games

High A: 8 games

AA: 4 games

AAA: 19 games

 

If this guy had taken a normal route, hed just be ready for AAA

 

Broadway has already had 11 games at high A and 15 at AA, and is the same age, yet i doubt anyone wants to give up on him, but people do for mccarthy? factor in the fact that Bmac led the minors in Ks and posted absolutely ridiculous K:BB ratios at just about every stop, and the fact that 38 innings of work in the bullpen means jack s***, (and even his #s arent that bad) and im not ready to give up on anyone.

[RockRaines]

BMAC is also still building velocity if anyone hasnt noticed. His frame is still filling out, and he is still developing. If he is this good right now, how good is he going to be when he is Buehrle's age?

Edited June 26, 2006 by RockRaines

[Frankensteiner]

Im starting to become not as high on McCarthy as I once was... if we could add Tejeda I wouldnt mind parting with B-Mac. Think of the offensive power we would be....

 

I would agree with you if Garcia/Vazquez/Garland weren't so piss poor this season. As it is, I'm hopeful McCarthy can get into the rotation next year.

[ZoomSlowik]

If there is one guy that is actaully on KW's "Big Board" its Brandon. He has said countless times that the Sox WILL find a way to get Mac into the rotation next year, which is telling Garland-Garcia-Vazquez to step it in gear,because the weakest link is hitting the road.

Mac is not going anywhere.

 

I would think the rankings of most likely to go would be Garcia, Garland, then Vazquez. My reasons:

 

1) We just got Vazquez, and Kenny has wanted him for some time. He is very similar to Contreras when we got him: great stuff, high salary, and a history of sucess (going back to Cuba for Contreras) despite recent struggles. I just doubt that we give up after one year.

 

2) Garland just signed an extension this year, and is the youngest of the group. However, he is also the worst in terms of performance thus far, and it isn't really that close. He could be the one to go if we can get more talent for him.

 

3) Garcia only has one year left on his deal, which makes him more of an unknown in terms of salary. He also seems to have lost some of his stuff and doesn't appear dependable anymore.

[WCSox]

How do you figure? B-Mac still hasnt really proven himself in the bigs and everybody in our starting rotation is still locked up for next season.

 

True, but all of our current starters cost a lot of money and at least a couple of them haven't been putting up the numbers to justify those salaries. And they're all tradeable. B-Mac has incredible stuff (looks like a young Mussina) and will be dirt-cheap for the foreseeable future. There's no way you trade a guy like that away... unless it's for Pujols or some other insanely-good stud in his prime.

[WCSox]

I would think the rankings of most likely to go would be Garcia, Garland, then Vazquez. My reasons:

 

1) We just got Vazquez, and Kenny has wanted him for some time. He is very similar to Contreras when we got him: great stuff, high salary, and a history of sucess (going back to Cuba for Contreras) despite recent struggles. I just doubt that we give up after one year.

 

2) Garland just signed an extension this year, and is the youngest of the group. However, he is also the worst in terms of performance thus far, and it isn't really that close. He could be the one to go if we can get more talent for him.

 

3) Garcia only has one year left on his deal, which makes him more of an unknown in terms of salary. He also seems to have lost some of his stuff and doesn't appear dependable anymore.

 

I agree about Vazquez. He has much better stuff than the other two and a year under Coop could make a huge difference.

 

It's almost a toss-up between Garland and Garcia, though. Garland has very pedestrian stuff (good sinker and two-seamer, but his offspeed stuff is weak and he doesn't locate his hook) and has to have good command to be effective. He's young and durable, though, and will eat a ton of innings at the back of the rotation. Garcia doesn't throw 95-96 mph like he used to, but his offspeed stuff (75 mph) still makes that 90-93 mph fastball effective. Like Jon, he gets hit hard when he doesn't locate because his stuff isn't overpowering. Freddy's the better pitcher (by far, IMO), but he's already peaked and is only under contract through next season. It's doubtful that he'll be re-signed uneless it's for a lot less. Further complicating matters are Freddy's relationship with Ozzie and Jon's relationshp with Mark.

 

Despite what KW has said about B-Mac definitely being in the rotation next season, it wouldn't surprise me if he went back on that statement. I get the feeling that he's going to want to see another year out of Freddy and Jon before making a decision.

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree about Vazquez. He has much better stuff than the other two and a year under Coop could make a huge difference.

 

It's almost a toss-up between Garland and Garcia, though. Garland has very pedestrian stuff (good sinker and two-seamer, but his offspeed stuff is weak and he doesn't locate his hook) and has to have good command to be effective. He's young and durable, though, and will eat a ton of innings at the back of the rotation. Garcia doesn't throw 95-96 mph like he used to, but his offspeed stuff (75 mph) still makes that 90-93 mph fastball effective. Like Jon, he gets hit hard when he doesn't locate because his stuff isn't overpowering. Freddy's the better pitcher (by far, IMO), but he's already peaked and is only under contract through next season. It's doubtful that he'll be re-signed uneless it's for a lot less. Further complicating matters are Freddy's relationship with Ozzie and Jon's relationshp with Mark.

 

Despite what KW has said about B-Mac definitely being in the rotation next season, it wouldn't surprise me if he went back on that statement. I get the feeling that he's going to want to see another year out of Freddy and Jon before making a decision.

 

The problem with Freddy is that I haven't seen him hitting 90 much recently. Most of the time he's been around 88, and his breaking stuff hasn't looked too sharp most of the time. Even in his gem against St. Louis his stuff didn't look all that impressive. I think he's the best at surviving without his best stuff, but his stuff is also the least impressive, and he doesn't seem to have his good stuff too often anymore. I'm kind of worried that he's getting close to the end of his effective days. I hope I'm wrong for our sake.

[GoodAsGould]

Yeah I kind of hope Freddy Garcia isnt in the starting rotation next season.... his record looks good so far but he has had a lot of run support. But on the mound for the most part he has impressed me less than Garland.

[Frankensteiner]

I agree with you Zoom. For me, give me mental problems over physical problems any day of the week. Jon has been quoted as saying he just isn't confident going inside, at least not as confident as he was last year. That is something that can be corrected.

 

Garcia on the other hand has simply lost zip on most, if not all his pitches. Freddy is one of the biggest gamers out there,and I have alot of respect for that, but I'll take my chances on fixing a still growing Jon Garland than declining Freddy...

 

This is an interesting question. Garcia this season reminds me of Colon his first year with the Angels. Bart lost his stuff that year too, but rebounded last season to win the Cy Young.

 

With Garland, it's difficult to say whether he's a better bet to rebound next year. His 2005 might just be a career year making him a one year wonder. On the other hand, there's a bigger payoff in straigthening out Garland because he's 3/4 years younger than Garcia.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 26, 2006 -> 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah I kind of hope Freddy Garcia isnt in the starting rotation next season.... his record looks good so far but he has had a lot of run support. But on the mound for the most part he has impressed me less than Garland.

Yeah they sure broke out the bats the last time he won.

Freddy's wins:

5-3 over the Tigers

6-4 over Blue Jays (f***ed up rain game where they rushed to get through the 5th.)

9-2 over Twins (3 runs came after he left the game.)

8-5 over Angels (he only gave up 3 of the runs in 6 innings)

9-1 over Angels (Freddy is an Angels killer, but the Sox brought the lumber against Bullpen pitcher Kevin Gregg that night)

7-3 over Twins (1 run came in the 9th)

7-0 over Cubs (Freddy is a Cubs killer and the Cubs f***ing blow)

12-4 over Reds (another s***ty NL team)

1-0 over the Cards

 

I only see about 2 or 3 games where the offense bailed him out of a below average start. The Angels (Even though he had a Quality start, the Rain game on Easter, and MAYBE the Reds game even though he settled down big time after giving up that first inning, first row homer to that steroid abuser, Rich Aurilia.)

 

Hasn't it already been mentioned 100 times that Freddy is intentionally taking speed off his fastball for more movement?

[Whitewashed in '05]

Yeah they sure broke out the bats the last time he won.

Freddy's wins:

5-3 over the Tigers

6-4 over Blue Jays (f***ed up rain game where they rushed to get through the 5th.)

9-2 over Twins (3 runs came after he left the game.)

8-5 over Angels (he only gave up 3 of the runs in 6 innings)

9-1 over Angels (Freddy is an Angels killer, but the Sox brought the lumber against Bullpen pitcher Kevin Gregg that night)

7-3 over Twins (1 run came in the 9th)

7-0 over Cubs (Freddy is a Cubs killer and the Cubs f***ing blow)

12-4 over Reds (another s***ty NL team)

1-0 over the Cards

 

I only see about 2 or 3 games where the offense bailed him out of a below average start. The Angels (Even though he had a Quality start, the Rain game on Easter, and MAYBE the Reds game even though he settled down big time after giving up that first inning, first row homer to that steroid abuser, Rich Aurilia.)

 

Hasn't it already been mentioned 100 times that Freddy is intentionally taking speed off his fastball for more movement?

 

I don't think everyone knows that, but I think the beef they have is that he's been a power pitcher his whole career with success so why change it now? Some might be curious as if he really has "intentionally" took mph off his fastball. You would think maybe he would rear back every once in a while during a jam to blow it past them, but nothing. Unless someones seen him rear back a few times, but the gun on comcast f***ing sucks.

[GoodAsGould]

Yeah they sure broke out the bats the last time he won.

Hasn't it already been mentioned 100 times that Freddy is intentionally taking speed off his fastball for more movement?

 

What does that have anything to do with it? The point is his era is still 4.66 after he just pitched an 8 inning shutout and thats up from 3.87 last season and a career 3.97. And he cant get the fastball like he used to even when he tries...Obviously if he could what would be the point of changing.

 

At least with Garland we know its not his stuff thats been the problem its all in his head.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 26, 2006 -> 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does that have anything to do with it? The point is his era is still 4.66 after he just pitched an 8 inning shutout and thats up from 3.87 last season and a career 3.97. And he cant get the fastball like he used to even when he tries...Obviously if he could what would be the point of changing.

 

At least with Garland we know its not his stuff thats been the problem its all in his head.

That was a seperate point from the debunking of your theory that Freddy only has wins because of run support.

 

Here's Freddy's run support in games he has lost:

2

2

0

8 (6 runs in the almost miracle 9th inning.)

 

This is in regards to all of the Freddy Bashing;

The late inning runs result in final scores that mask his very good pitching performances.

 

He has only been hit hard against Two Teams: The Blue Jays and the Indians. Unfortunately because he has faced the Indians 3 times and the BJ's twice (although the rain and umps had a HUGE factor in that game) his overall numbers have been hurt.

 

His velocity is down, but he is doing it to get more movement on his pitches. Why? Who knows? Maddux

made the same change (although much later in his career,) but if Freddy is still getting wins against all but two teams, who cares in the end?

[shoota]

That was a seperate point from the debunking of your theory that Freddy only has wins because of run support.

 

Here's Freddy's run support in games he has lost:

2

2

0

8 (6 runs in the almost miracle 9th inning.)

 

This is in regards to all of the Freddy Bashing;

The late inning runs result in final scores that mask his very good pitching performances.

 

He has only been hit hard against Two Teams: The Blue Jays and the Indians. Unfortunately because he has faced the Indians 3 times and the BJ's twice (although the rain and umps had a HUGE factor in that game) his overall numbers have been hurt.

 

His velocity is down, but he is doing it to get more movement on his pitches. Why? Who knows? Maddux

made the same change (although much later in his career,) but if Freddy is still getting wins against all but two teams, who cares in the end?

 

I know this isn't a solid point because of its subjective opinion, but I just don't feel comfortable when Freddy's pitching. It seems like he often pitches from behind, regularly allowing first and second inning runs.

 

Since I don't see him dominate offenses, but labor and throw many pitches to many batters, I sometimes get the feeling that he's almost lucky to record an out or earn a victory.

Edited June 27, 2006 by shoota

[redandwhite]

What about Alex Cora?

 

Cora's name always came up as someone that Williams liked, dare I say coveted.

 

Not that he's struggling, he's actually performing really well, but I wonder if a Cora for Uribe, prospect/cash would work.

[GoodAsGould]

What about Alex Cora?

 

Cora's name always came up as someone that Williams liked, dare I say coveted.

 

Not that he's struggling, he's actually performing really well, but I wonder if a Cora for Uribe, prospect/cash would work.

 

umm why would we trade Uribe for a lesser player in Cora and than some prospects? And I dont care if Cora is hitting a higher avg. he would be a downgrade.

[witesoxfan]

I don't think everyone knows that, but I think the beef they have is that he's been a power pitcher his whole career with success so why change it now? Some might be curious as if he really has "intentionally" took mph off his fastball. You would think maybe he would rear back every once in a while during a jam to blow it past them, but nothing. Unless someones seen him rear back a few times, but the gun on comcast f***ing sucks.

 

To extend your career instead of burning out at 28 like Kerry Wood?

 

What about Alex Cora?

 

Cora's name always came up as someone that Williams liked, dare I say coveted.

 

Not that he's struggling, he's actually performing really well, but I wonder if a Cora for Uribe, prospect/cash would work.

 

He's not near the player Uribe is defensively.

 

Uribe may get lazy defensively, but he can be a game-changer as well...as seen in game 4.

[Whitewashed in '05]

To extend your career instead of burning out at 28 like Kerry Wood?

He's not near the player Uribe is defensively.

 

Uribe may get lazy defensively, but he can be a game-changer as well...as seen in game 4.

Their situations aren't even comparable.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 26, 2006 -> 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

umm why would we trade Uribe for a lesser player in Cora and than some prospects? And I dont care if Cora is hitting a higher avg. he would be a downgrade.

Uribe is owed 4.15 million dollars next year, 4.45 million if you count the buy out. I can't imagine the White Sox upgrade at short without ridding themselves of Uribe.

 

Perhaps a prospect isn't needed, and maybe the Red Sox would be willing to take on that cash, I just can't imagine they or anyone would for a utility infielder.

[GoodAsGould]

Uribe is owed 4.15 million dollars next year, 4.45 million if you count the buy out. I can't imagine the White Sox upgrade at short without ridding themselves of Uribe.

 

Perhaps a prospect isn't needed, and maybe the Red Sox would be willing to take on that cash, I just can't imagine they or anyone would for a utility infielder.

 

Ok but why would we want Cora instead of Uribe. The point would be to upgrade the SS not to shed payroll.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 27, 2006 -> 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok but why would we want Cora instead of Uribe. The point would be to upgrade the SS not to shed payroll.

I was just throwing his name out there, considering when Cora was a free agent, he was a popular name on this board.

[DBAHO]

I was just throwing his name out there, considering when Cora was a free agent, he was a popular name on this board.

IIRC and correct me if I'm wrong, that was to replace Willie Harris as the 2nd baseman, before we signed Tadahito Iguchi.

[RockRaines]

Ok but why would we want Cora instead of Uribe. The point would be to upgrade the SS not to shed payroll.

There is no reason to get Cora, except to take him off the hands of the Red Sox.