Rotation concerns??

[whitesoxfan101]

Freddy has an ERA over 5, and Jon over 6 now. I think our other 3 guys have obviously done a nice job, but are we going to have to give B-Mac a shot and/or make a trade? I mean it's Mid-June, these are no longer small sample sizes.

[fathom]

I think we all know that Garcia's rotation spot is as secure as that of Buehrle, Contreras, and Vazquez. I really wonder how Garcia is able to get hitters out though.

[BobDylan]

I think we all know that Garcia's rotation spot is as secure as that of Buehrle, Contreras, and Vazquez. I really wonder how Garcia is able to get hitters out though.

 

He looked like a much better pitcher last season.

[WCSox]

I think we all know that Garcia's rotation spot is as secure as that of Buehrle, Contreras, and Vazquez. I really wonder how Garcia is able to get hitters out though.

 

Unless ESPN's radar gun was completely inaccurate, his arm still looks OK. His "high-gear" fastball was in the 92-94 mph range tonight. Much of his trouble tonight was due to his inability to locate his hook. But, yeah, he hasn't pitched well at all in his last few starts.

 

I'd like to see Freddy here for another season and then shown the door when his contract expires. He's still very effective at times and would make a solid #4.

[whitesoxfan101]

I actually worry more about his breaking ball than anything else. He can get people out throwing 88 with the heater, but if he can't locate his off speed stuff, he can't get people out. Freddy was getting people out earlier this year, but recently he hasn't located the off speed stuff, and big problems have come up.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Freddy has an ERA over 5, and Jon over 6 now. I think our other 3 guys have obviously done a nice job, but are we going to have to give B-Mac a shot and/or make a trade? I mean it's Mid-June, these are no longer small sample sizes.

Freddy has been very good this year against teams not from Cleveland or Toronto. Let's not throw the World series clinching pitcher who gave up 3 hits in 7 IP under the bus just yet.

Link

Garland is a different story. Link2

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think there's definitely some concerns. We can't use the "it's early" excuse anymore. Contreras, Buehrle, and Vazquez have all been solid to dominant. Garland and Garcia have been average to pathetic. We can talk about the bullpen-ss-cf holes all we want. This team begins and ends with its starting rotation.

[whitesoxfan101]

I think there's definitely some concerns. We can't use the "it's early" excuse anymore. Contreras, Buehrle, and Vazquez have all been solid to dominant. Garland and Garcia have been average to pathetic. We can talk about the bullpen-ss-cf holes all we want. This team begins and ends with its starting rotation.

 

Well said and I agree.

[WCSox]

I think there's definitely some concerns. We can't use the "it's early" excuse anymore. Contreras, Buehrle, and Vazquez have all been solid to dominant. Garland and Garcia have been average to pathetic. We can talk about the bullpen-ss-cf holes all we want. This team begins and ends with its starting rotation.

 

Most GMs would sell their souls to the Devil to have our rotation... even with below-average pitching from Garcia and wretched pitching from Garland. Three of oru five starters are pitching well and two of those guys are likely All-Stars. I'll take three quality starters and a competent bullpen over five quality starters and no bullpen any day.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Most GMs would sell their souls to the Devil to have our rotation... even with below-average pitching from Garcia and wretched pitching from Garland. Three of oru five starters are pitching well and two of those guys are likely All-Stars. I'll take three quality starters and a competent bullpen over five quality starters and no bullpen any day.

 

Well, Detroit is getting good performances from all their starters every night. We're not gonna have a 15-game lead to play with this time around. If we're gonna get back to the playoffs, we need Garland and Garcia to wake-up.

[WCSox]

Well, Detroit is getting good performances from all their starters every night. We're not gonna have a 15-game lead to play with this time around. If we're gonna get back to the playoffs, we need Garland and Garcia to wake-up.

 

Yeah, because Detroit is the model MLB franchise. Forget the fact that they rely on three-run homers to win games. Forget the fact that they can't win a series against any of the elite AL teams. Forget the fact that they haven't been to the playoffs since 1987.

 

Most teams would love to have Freddy as their #4. Most teams would also love to have the option of replacing Garland with McCarthy, if needed. Our starting pitching is not as lights-out as it was last season, but it isn't that bad, either. On the other hand, our current bullpen isn't even close to as good as last season's. If KW doesn't deal for a veteran reliever or two, that's going to be the difference between this and last season.

Edited June 12, 2006 by WCSox

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, because Detroit is the model MLB franchise. Forget the fact that they rely on three-run homers to win games. Forget the fact that they can't win a series against any of the elite AL teams. Forget the fact that they haven't been to the playoffs since 1987.

 

Or forget the fact that they're in first place? Or the fact that they lead the AL in era? What does them not being in the playoffs since '87 have to do with '06?

 

Most teams would love to have Freddy as their #4. Most teams would also love to have the option of replacing Garland with McCarthy, if needed. Our starting pitching is not as lights-out as it was last season, but it isn't that bad, either. On the other hand, our current bullpen isn't even close to as good as last season's. That's been the difference.

 

Most teams would love to have Freddy as their #4 if he's pitching well. A 5.13 era on June 11th doesn't qualify. What's replacing McCarthy with Garland gonna accomplish? We'd still be in the same boat we are now. I never said our starting rotation as a whole has been bad. But 2/5ths of it has been real bad. That's cause for concern for a team that revolves around its rotation.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Detroit is getting good performances from all their starters every night. We're not gonna have a 15-game lead to play with this time around. If we're gonna get back to the playoffs, we need Garland and Garcia to wake-up.

AS I have already pointed out, Garcia's struggles have only come against the Indians and the Blue Jays (one game was were he was rushed through the rain delay.)

 

We've seen our current starters prove themselves over a long season and October. Detroit certainly hasn't with Verlander, Robertson, Maroth, Bonderman and "Mr. First Half" Kenny Rogers.

[fathom]

Most teams would love to have Freddy as their #4. Most teams would also love to have the option of replacing Garland with McCarthy, if needed. Our starting pitching is not as lights-out as it was last season, but it isn't that bad, either. On the other hand, our current bullpen isn't even close to as good as last season's. If KW doesn't deal for a veteran reliever or two, that's going to be the difference between this and last season.

 

Most teams would love to be able to pay more than 40 millions dollars a year for their starting rotation (wow, is that nice to be on the rich side of the payroll argument). The thing that's supposed to seperate us from the pack is our starters. So far, they've underachieved as a group. If they start to perform at an elite level, we'll be fine.

[Frankensteiner]

Freddy has an ERA over 5, and Jon over 6 now. I think our other 3 guys have obviously done a nice job, but are we going to have to give B-Mac a shot and/or make a trade? I mean it's Mid-June, these are no longer small sample sizes.

 

I agree. I would have no problem acquiring another starter provided there's a great one available; I wouldn't do it for someone like Scott Elarton though. Pretty much think we should get the best pitcher available whether it's a starter or reliever. And then we could move Garland to the bullpen and hope he's more effective there (which he was in 2001).

[Gregory Pratt]

I was talking up Barry Zito, but we probably don't have what it takes to pry him away.

[Frankensteiner]

AS I have already pointed out, Garcia's struggles have only come against the Indians and the Blue Jays (one game was were he was rushed through the rain delay.)

 

On the flip side, one could argue Garcia's only good games have come against relatively weak hitting teams (Cubs, LAA, Minn).

[Jordan4life_2007]

AS I have already pointed out, Garcia's struggles have only come against the Indians and the Blue Jays (one game was were he was rushed through the rain delay.)

 

In other words...He sucks against good offensive teams. That makes me feel a lot better

 

We've seen our current starters prove themselves over a long season and October. Detroit certainly hasn't with Verlander, Robertson, Maroth, Bonderman and "Mr. First Half" Kenny Rogers.

 

I don't know what it's gonna take before people realize that the Tigers are a good team. Will they win the division? I don't know. But I think we're at a point now that we can stop waiting for the Tigers to all of a sudden fall apart. They've got a good staff. Period.

[WCSox]

Or forget the fact that they're in first place? Or the fact that they lead the AL in era? What does them not being in the playoffs since '87 have to do with '06?

 

Outside of Kenny Rogers (who is a terrible 2nd-half pitcher, BTW), none of those guys have ever done squat in the majors. Oh, and Maroth just had elbow surgery. And Verlander, the rookie, has never thrown anything close to 200 innings before and it's unlikely that his arm is conditioned well enough to pitch effectively in September.

 

You want to go with a bunch of front-runners who've never put together a good full season before? Suit yourself. I'll stick with Mark, Jose, Javy, Freddy, and Jon.

 

Most teams would love to have Freddy as their #4 if he's pitching well. A 5.13 era on June 11th doesn't qualify. What's replacing McCarthy with Garland gonna accomplish? We'd still be in the same boat we are now.

 

Going into today's game, Freddy's ERA was about 4.6. Overall, he's been decent this year. Not that great, but not horrible. McCarthy would most likely put up an ERA somewhere in the 4.5-5.5 range, which would be an improvement over what Jon's been doing. Then again, it's unlikely that Garland will continue to suck this badly for the remainder of the season.

 

As disappointing as Jon (and Freddy, to a lesser extent) have been, the Sox need reliable middle relievers more than anything else right now. Sean Tracey on the mound doing his impression of Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn in September will kill us.

 

I never said our starting rotation as a whole has been bad. But 2/5ths of it has been real bad. That's cause for concern for a team that revolves around its rotation.

 

And 2/5th of it has been outstanding. And the #3 has been pretty good. And it's not even mid-June yet. And we have the second-best record in baseball right now. What was your point again?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I was talking up Barry Zito, but we probably don't have what it takes to pry him away.

 

Pretty much.

[WCSox]

I don't know what it's gonna take before people realize that the Tigers are a good team. Will they win the division? I don't know. But I think we're at a point now that we can stop waiting for the Tigers to all of a sudden fall apart. They've got a good staff. Period.

 

People here already understand that. But your hard-on for a pitching staff that hasn't done anything noteworthy over the long run doesn't make any sense. The Sox had a "good staff" in the first half of 2000. How'd that work out?

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In other words...He sucks against good offensive teams. That makes me feel a lot better

I don't know what it's gonna take before people realize that the Tigers are a good team. Will they win the division? I don't know. But I think we're at a point now that we can stop waiting for the Tigers to all of a sudden fall apart. They've got a good staff. Period.

Detroit isn't good offensively?

Buehrle has been horses*** against the Indians and Rangers. Should we throw him under the bus for not pitching well against good hitting teams?

Contreras has a 4.91 ERA against the weak hitting Cubs. He also has an ERA over 6.00 against the Indians.

Under the bus?

Vazquez pitched great against the Indians, sucked against the great hitting Rangers and Blue Jays, and even sucked against the crappy hitting Twins.

 

Boy, I bet some of you just don;t how to feel with all of our starters not pitching well against great hitting teams.

 

 

 

:rolly :rolly :rolly :banghead

[shoota]

Outside of Kenny Rogers (who is a terrible 2nd-half pitcher, BTW), none of those guys have ever done squat in the majors. Oh, and Maroth just had elbow surgery. And Verlander, the rookie, has never thrown anything close to 200 innings before and it's unlikely that his arm is conditioned well enough to pitch effectively in September.

You want to go with a bunch of front-runners who've never put together a good full season before? Suit yourself. I'll stick with Mark, Jose, Javy, Freddy, and Jon.

Going into today's game, Freddy's ERA was about 4.6. Overall, he's been decent this year. Not that great, but not horrible. McCarthy would most likely put up an ERA somewhere in the 4.5-5.5 range, which would be an improvement over what Jon's been doing. Then again, it's unlikely that Garland will continue to suck this badly for the remainder of the season.

 

As disappointing as Jon (and Freddy, to a lesser extent) have been, the Sox need reliable middle relievers more than anything else right now. Sean Tracey on the mound doing his impression of Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn in September will kill us.

And 2/5th of it has been outstanding. And the #3 has been pretty good. And it's not even mid-June yet. And we have the second-best record in baseball right now. What was your point again?

 

Why does it have to be an either/or decision? There are certainly other alternatives.

 

I wouldn't want to trade rotations with Detroit, but I don't want to rely on poor pitching from Garcia and Garland either.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Outside of Kenny Rogers (who is a terrible 2nd-half pitcher, BTW), none of those guys have ever done squat in the majors. Oh, and Maroth just had elbow surgery. And Verlander, the rookie, has never thrown anything close to 200 innings before and it's unlikely that his arm is conditioned well enough to pitch effectively in September.

 

Blah, blah, blah. I'm going by what I see as of right now. And as of right now, their pitching has been the best in the AL. Will it continue? Nobody knows. But I'm not gonna just dismiss them just because it's the cool thing to do on Soxtalk.

 

You want to go with a bunch of front-runners who've never put together a good full season before? Suit yourself. I'll stick with Mark, Jose, Javy, Freddy, and Jon.

Going into today's game, Freddy's ERA was about 4.6. Overall, he's been decent this year. Not that great, but not horrible. McCarthy would most likely put up an ERA somewhere in the 4.5-5.5 range, which would be an improvement over what Jon's been doing. Then again, it's unlikely that Garland will continue to suck this badly for the remainder of the season.

 

Yeah, I was implying I'd rather have their staff over ours. :headshake

 

It wouldn't be very hard to do better than what Jon is doing right now. And moving McCarthy into the rotation would create another hole in our already suspect 'pen. Unless you think Garland would flourish there. In which case you'd be nuts.

 

As disappointing as Jon (and Freddy, to a lesser extent) have been, the Sox need reliable middle relievers more than anything else right now. Sean Tracey on the mound doing his impression of Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn in September will kill us.

 

Why don't you stick to the topic of the thead? It asks should we be concerned about our rotation. When two guys have eras over 5 and 6, yes, you should be concerned. I don't need a reminder from you on how crummy our bullpen has been.

 

And 2/5th of it has been outstanding. And the #3 has been pretty good. And it's not even mid-June yet. And we have the second-best record in baseball right now. What was your point again?

 

No, what's your point is what you should be asking. I don't think you even have one.

 

 

People here already understand that. But your hard-on for a pitching staff that hasn't done anything noteworthy over the long run doesn't make any sense. The Sox had a "good staff" in the first half of 2000. How'd that work out?

 

Dude, just stop.

[shoota]

Detroit isn't good offensively?

Buehrle has been horses*** against the Indians and Rangers. Should we throw him under the bus for not pitching well against good hitting teams?

Contreras has a 4.91 ERA against the weak hitting Cubs. He also has an ERA over 6.00 against the Indians.

Under the bus?

Vazquez pitched great against the Indians, sucked against the great hitting Rangers and Blue Jays, and even sucked against the crappy hitting Twins.

 

Boy, I bet some of you just don;t how to feel with all of our starters not pitching well against great hitting teams.

:rolly :rolly :rolly :banghead

 

I see your point, but Buehrle, Contreras and Vazquez have been good overall (ERAs of 3.21; 2.54; and 4.19), while Garcia has lost speed on his fastball, isn't efficient with his pitch count, and has an ERA of 5.13, with Garland looking like 2005 was a fluke and is pitching like the career .500 pitcher he once was (ERA 6.19) and has given up the most home runs in the AL.