Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:44 PM) Detroit isn't good offensively? Buehrle has been horses*** against the Indians and Rangers. Should we throw him under the bus for not pitching well against good hitting teams? Contreras has a 4.91 ERA against the weak hitting Cubs. He also has an ERA over 6.00 against the Indians. Under the bus? Vazquez pitched great against the Indians, sucked against the great hitting Rangers and Blue Jays, and even sucked against the crappy hitting Twins. Boy, I bet some of you just don;t how to feel with all of our starters not pitching well against great hitting teams. :rolly :rolly :rolly :banghead OK, let's play it your way. What are Freddy's overall numbers if you take away his starts against the Indians and Bluejays? Edited June 12, 2006 by Jordan4life_2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(shoota @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I see your point, but Buehrle, Contreras and Vazquez have been good overall (ERAs of 3.21; 2.54; and 4.19), while Garcia has lost speed on his fastball, isn't efficient with his pitch count, and has an ERA of 5.13, with Garland looking like 2005 was a fluke and is pitching like the career .500 pitcher he once was (ERA 6.19) and has given up the most home runs in the AL. Garcia was hitting 94 MPH on the gun today. What's the difference if the Sox lose because Buehrle gives up 5 ER in 6.2 IP against CC Sabathia and the Sox lose 10-8 after Garcia gives up 8 ER in 5.2 IP? Garcia's overall ERA takes a hit, but regardless they both pitched like s*** against the same team and were a direct result of the Sox losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 08:47 PM) Blah, blah, blah. I'm going by what I see as of right now. And that's why your post is so ridiculous. And as of right now, their pitching has been the best in the AL. Will it continue? Nobody knows. But I'm not gonna just dismiss them just because it's the cool thing to do on Soxtalk. Funny, I'm more concerned about how the Sox are doing. Yeah, I was implying I'd rather have their staff over ours. :headshake Oh, but they're the model which the Sox should follow, right? Inexperienced pitching, an aging and injury-prone catcher, a RF with a surgically-repaird knee who is past his prime, mediocre defense, and no ability to manufacture runs... sounds great! It wouldn't be very hard to do better than what Jon is doing right now. And moving McCarthy into the rotation would create another hole in our already suspect 'pen. Unless you think Garland would flourish there. In which case you'd be nuts. No, but it'd get him out of the rotation, which you consider the most important thing. BTW, 2/5 of the '05 Astros rotation sucked as well. How'd that work out for them? Why don't you stick to the topic of the thead? It asks should we be concerned about our rotation. When two guys have eras over 5 and 6, yes, you should be concerned. I don't need a reminder from you on how crummy our bullpen has been. You're the one who brought it up... We can talk about the bullpen-ss-cf holes all we want. This team begins and ends with its starting rotation. No, what's your point is what you should be asking. I don't think you even have one. Dude, just stop. Dude, shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoota Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:37 PM) People here already understand that. But your hard-on for a pitching staff that hasn't done anything noteworthy over the long run doesn't make any sense. The Sox had a "good staff" in the first half of 2000. How'd that work out? That's not a good example to use in your argument. Sure the young 2000 Sox rotation didn't sustain success after the 2000 season, but it was good enough to win its division that year, which means Detroit's young rotation could be good enough to win our division this year. Though the Wild Card is another way to earn entry into the playoffs, I certainly would not want to lose the division because of the mindset that our starting 5 is better than Detroit's and does not need to be upgraded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK, let's play it your way. What are Freddy's overall numbers if you take away his starts against the Indians and Bluejays? 54.1 IP, 49 H, 10 BB, 31 K's, 2.98 ERA, 1.09 WHIP Is it too late to get him out from under the bus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 It's a night for fussing and feuding all over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:00 PM) 54.1 IP, 49 H, 10 BB, 31 K's, 2.98 ERA, 1.09 WHIP Is it too late to get him out from under the bus? So now we have to hand pick his starts like the Cubs do for Wood so he doesn't face any good offenses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Cleveland really teed off on Freddie. I mean they were teeing off. If he really threw 92 that makes me feel better. It sure looked like he was throwing soft all night to me. Arm strength may be a problem. Is Fred hiding an injury like Cliff did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:56 PM) And that's why your post is so ridiculous. That's hilarious coming from you. Funny, I'm more concerned about how the Sox are doing. As am I. You're not special. Oh, but they're the model which the Sox should follow, right? Inexperienced pitching, an aging and injury-prone catcher, a RF with a surgically-repaird knee who is past his prime, mediocre defense, and no ability to manufacture runs... sounds great! The model franchise they should follow? What the f*** are you talking about? No, but it'd get him out of the rotation, which you consider the most important thing. Which I consider the most important thing? All I said was that he has to start pitching better. What the hell is wrong with you? lol. BTW, 2/5 of the '05 Astros rotation sucked as well. How'd that work out for them? You're the one who brought it up... Dude, shut up. And how many games did the Astros win last year? I believe it was 89. You're smokin' that really good s*** if you think we're getting to the playoffs in the AL with 89 wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So now we have to hand pick his starts like the Cubs do for Wood so he doesn't face any good offenses? He asks for the stats didn't he? Isn't Detroit a good offensive team? Buehrle sucks against the Indians, as does Contreras this year. I really don't understand what is so fasicnating about pitchers struggling against team that have a good/great offense. ...and as for facing the "weak" offense teams, what do you want Freddy to do? Lose? He's shutting them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoota Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 10:55 PM) Garcia was hitting 94 MPH on the gun today. What's the difference if the Sox lose because Buehrle gives up 5 ER in 6.2 IP against CC Sabathia and the Sox lose 10-8 after Garcia gives up 8 ER in 5.2 IP? Garcia's overall ERA takes a hit, but regardless they both pitched like s*** against the same team and were a direct result of the Sox losing. I concede ignorance to staying updated on Freddy's velocity, but even if he was posting 94 MPH on the gun today, is his velocity and consistency of velocity down from last season? For discussion's sake, let's assume Freddy's velocity is as high as ever. His ERA is still 5.13 (a run higher than his career average) and he's pitching worse than expected. The difference in your example is that Buehrle pitched better than Garcia, like he has all year to an ERA of about 2 runs less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(shoota @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 08:57 PM) That's not a good example to use in your argument. Sure the young 2000 Sox rotation didn't sustain success after the 2000 season, but it was good enough to win its division that year, which means Detroit's young rotation could be good enough to win our division this year. Boy, that's putting it lightly. That season was the end of Sirotka's career. Parque never pitched a full season again. Eldred had so many problems with his elbow that he had to move to middle relief. Baldwin had an unimpressive year with Seattle and fizzled out after '01. Detroit very well may win the division. And they might get swept in the playoffs, just like the 2000 Sox. Though the Wild Card is another way to earn entry into the playoffs, I certainly would not want to lose the division because of the mindset that our starting 5 is better than Detroit's and does not need to be upgraded. So, who do you suggest that we upgrade our rotation with? And how would you accomplish that AND address our horrible bullpen situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:00 PM) 54.1 IP, 49 H, 10 BB, 31 K's, 2.98 ERA, 1.09 WHIP Is it too late to get him out from under the bus? Alright. I'll admit, I didn't realize it was only Cleveland and Toronto that he's really struggled with. So what's the conclusion then? That he can dominate weak hitting teams like the Cubs and Angels? While getting lit up by the good hitting teams? I mean, he's probably gonna face the Indians 2-3 more times this year. Is it gonna be ok if he continues to get killed as long as he does the job against the crap teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:08 PM) Alright. I'll admit, I didn't realize it was only Cleveland and Toronto that he's really struggled with. So what's the conclusion then? That he can dominate weak hitting teams like the Cubs and Angels? While getting lit up by the good hitting teams? I mean, he's probably gonna face the Indians 2-3 more times this year. Is it gonna be ok if he continues to get killed as long as he does the job against the crap teams? Very often you win your division feasting on crap teams, average teams and above average teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:05 PM) He asks for the stats didn't he? Isn't Detroit a good offensive team? Buehrle sucks against the Indians, as does Contreras this year. I really don't understand what is so fasicnating about pitchers struggling against team that have a good/great offense. ...and as for facing the "weak" offense teams, what do you want Freddy to do? Lose? He's shutting them down. How exactly has Contreras "sucked" against the Indians this year? He's had one good outing and one bad outing against them this year. Usually above average pitchers will find a way to get passed above average/great offenses. And Detroit is an average offensive team (16th in baseball in Runs scored). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 09:03 PM) And how many games did the Astros win last year? I believe it was 89. You're smokin' that really good s*** if you think we're getting to the playoffs in the AL with 89 wins. The Astros also won the NL last year... with not even half of the offensive talent that we have. Oh, and the Sox also have the second-best record in the league right now, which means that they would be in the playoffs if the season ended today. Nice analysis there, Sherlock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Whoa... did I miss something here.. ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Alright. I'll admit, I didn't realize it was only Cleveland and Toronto that he's really struggled with. So what's the conclusion then? That he can dominate weak hitting teams like the Cubs and Angels? While getting lit up by the good hitting teams? I mean, he's probably gonna face the Indians 2-3 more times this year. Is it gonna be ok if he continues to get killed as long as he does the job against the crap teams? Perhaps the Indians are seeing Freddy tip his pitches? Maybe Freddy was still hungover from his birthday (June 10th 1976.) According to the stats, both his two outings against the blue jays were terrible. In one of the game he was rushing through the 6th inning to get the game in and plays that are made during normal conditions were not being made due to 8 inches of rain being on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitewashed in '05 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Luckily we still have a good record, but we won't keep it and we won't reclaim first place if some of our players keep playing like s***. Anderson looks like he might be on to something and Uribe has looked slightly better with the same results. Garcia and Garland have been pretty bad. Montero has been getting the job done his past few outings, but we still need at least one arm in that pen. Hopefully each of the players I have mentioned start playing A LOT better and we get some bullpen help because if they don't improve the playoffs aren't guarenteed and a repeat is totally out of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How exactly has Contreras "sucked" against the Indians this year? He's had one good outing and one bad outing against them this year. Usually above average pitchers will find a way to get passed above average/great offenses. And Detroit is an average offensive team (16th in baseball in Runs scored). His overall ERA against the Indians is 6.55/ He sucks then right? Please take not of when Freddy defeated the Tigers. It was very early in the season when they were on fire with Shelton batting somewhere in the .600's or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoota Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:07 PM) Boy, that's putting it lightly. That season was the end of Sirotka's career. Parque never pitched a full season again. Eldred had so many problems with his elbow that he had to move to middle relief. Baldwin had an unimpressive year with Seattle and fizzled out after '01. You're missing the point. You compared the Sox's young 2000 rotation to the 2006 Tigers rotation as evidence that the Tigers rotation won't sustain long-term success. I countered saying that even if the 2006 Tigers rotation never wins a game after this season, they are, like the 2000 Sox, capable of winning their division. This obviously has a negative impact on our 2006 White Sox because then our only route to postseason play would be via the Wild Card. QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:07 PM) Detroit very well may win the division. And they might get swept in the playoffs, just like the 2000 Sox. So, who do you suggest that we upgrade our rotation with? And how would you accomplish that AND address our horrible bullpen situation? IT'S IRRELEVANT TO OUR WHITE SOX how well or poor the Tigers perform in the playoffs if they win the division. It is their regular season play that can hurt our team's chances at postseason play. As far as how I suggest we upgrade our rotation, that's a poor argument. Even if I have no clue as to who to replace Freddy and Garland with, that does not mean the performances of those two doesn't merit upgrade--which is exactly what this discussion is about. Edited June 12, 2006 by shoota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(shoota @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 09:19 PM) You're missing the point. You compared the Sox's young 2000 rotation to the 2006 Tigers rotation as evidence that the Tigers rotation won't sustain long-term success. No, I'm just saying that they've never done it before. The chances of four of their starters to have career years simultaneously isn't that high. As far as how I suggest we upgrade our rotation, that's a poor argument. It's not an argument. It's a question. Even if I have no clue as to who to replace Freddy and Garland with, that does not mean the performances of those two doesn't merit upgrade--which is exactly what this discussion is about. My God. :rolly I'll ask one more time: What "upgrade" are you talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:15 PM) Perhaps the Indians are seeing Freddy tip his pitches? Maybe Freddy was still hungover from his birthday (June 10th 1976.) According to the stats, both his two outings against the blue jays were terrible. In one of the game he was rushing through the 6th inning to get the game in and plays that are made during normal conditions were not being made due to 8 inches of rain being on the ground. Take away Garcia's starts against the Cubs, Twins and Angels, 3 of the weakest offenses, (the Angels were really struggling when the Sox faced them) and what is Garcia's ERA? He wasn't rushed that game vs. Toronto. I happened to be there. He was getting lit up in the 5th. Ozzie left him out there for the win. It almost cost the Sox a win. You have to be concerned about Garcia and Garland. Neither have been that sharp this year. Freddy was on a hot streak for a while, but hasn't won since he beat the Cubs, and has looked bad lately. Garland has been terrible, so terrible that people actually get enthused about a 6 inning 5 ER 3 homerun allowed performance. With the bullpen as weak as it is, the Sox are going to need more out of their starters, although I heard today on ESPN that White Sox starters have pitched the most innings in the major leagues. Its cause for concern. Garcia had 1 or 2 pitches go 94 on the USCF gun today, but most between 89-91. That gun is known to be quick. He also hit 106 on it once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:11 PM) The Astros also won the NL last year... with not even half of the offensive talent that we have. Oh, and the Sox also have the second-best record in the league right now, which means that they would be in the playoffs if the season ended today. Nice analysis there, Sherlock. LOL. You obviously didn't get the point. Let me help you. WE WILL NOT GET TO THE PLAYOFFS WITH LESS THAN 90 WINS. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ASTROS DID IN A CRAPPY NATIONAL LEAGUE. Get it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoota Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 11, 2006 -> 11:22 PM) No, I'm just saying that they've never done it before. The chances of four of their starters to have career years simultaneously isn't that high. It's not an argument. It's a question. My God. :rolly I'll ask one more time: What "upgrade" are you talking about. Horrible. Simply horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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