Post game show?

[Allsox]

With Padilla, does anyone know if this assclown and Carlos Zambrano are friends or countrymen? That's the only thing I could think of as to why he threw at AJ on purpose in consecutive ABs since as AJ said, he faced only a couple of times when he was a Giant.

 

And with Tracy, if he can't do what his manager asks, demote him. I have no sympathy for him nor care if Ozzie did let him have it in the dugout. Ozzie's the manager of the team, he can do whatever he wants in that dugout. I will say I'm disappointed in Javy not plunking a Ranger after the 1st AJ beanball especially when he said in the papers he thought it was intentional.

[G&T]

I don't know if anyone was sure enough at that point that it was intentional. Vaz said he "knew", but I don't buy it. Many may have suspected it, but you couldn't know in that situation - AJ's first at bat, he hadn't done anything particular to the Rangers or to the idiot pitcher... not much apparent motive there.

 

Farmer knew right off the bat but didn't know why he would do it. I imagine the bench knew what was going on.

[winninguglyin83]

When they are fastballs to the midsection, it's intentional.

 

breaking balls and changeups are mistakes. So are fastballs that get away.

 

But those pitches looked like Padkilla thought he was at the county fair.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Farmer knew right off the bat but didn't know why he would do it. I imagine the bench knew what was going on.

 

 

I think we have broken down this topic enough, lets just go out and pummel them on field and show them up...ozzie style

[Guest JimH]

This is very interesting discussion, especially with opinions being diverse. Good points made all the way around.

 

For what it's worth, here's how I see it ...

 

1. Vazquez shoud've dusted someone off the very next inning after Pierzynski got hit the first time.

 

2. What we don't know though is if Guillen specifically told Vazquez not to retaliate. That would seem odd but it's possible. Guillen may have wanted a lesser guy (Tracey or Montero) to drill a hitter.

 

3. Even if Vazquez doesn't hit a guy, at least make them move their feet. He was not pitching inside at all, and not only did he not send a message after Pierzynski got plunked, he also lost the game because he kept pitching outer half (White Sox weak offense last nite notwithstanding).

 

4. Yes I personally feel bad for Tracey but I will get over it. If this totally ruins his career, he wasn't tough enough mentally anyways. And I suspect this will not ruin Sean's career.

 

5. I think Guillen is extremely leery of baseball's judicial system. He does not want any of his key players getting suspended. I don't blame him but sometimes a frontline pitcher has to put it on the line and dust someone off. It's part of baseball. I'm not saying throw to hurt someone but make them move their feet.

 

6. Guillen may have been testing Tracey. It is an age old unwritten baseball clubhouse code ... hey rookie, let's see if you will stick up for your teammates. Is it a slightly unfair situation for Tracey? Maybe, yes, but that's the way it goes. Life isn't fair and neither is baseball sometimes. And yes I agree that Tracey tried to go inside on Blalock but he missed. After he missed twice he needed to keep trying and get it done. Again, maybe not fair to him but baseball has a unique honor code. May seem barbaric to some but a tight knit clubhouse is not barbaric, it's important.

 

7. Guillen's outburst in the dugout at Tracey, was it out of place? Tough to say. We don't know how the players reacted. It's entirely possible it may have brought them together. Certainly embarassing for Sean Tracey though, and no one likes to see a player get publically embarassed. But again, if it brings the team closer together, mission accomplished.

 

The biggest issue to me, and it's a big picture issue, is White Sox pitch calling (pitchers and catchers) have not done a good job establishing inside. They tend to pitch away, away, away. If they establish inside, the occasional "oops, a pitch ran too far inside" tends to get overlooked by the umpire and the opposition. Not only that, but it helps you win games. If you keep working outside, all of a sudden you come way in and it's obvious.

 

Oh and one last thing ... I thought Cuzzi could just as well heaved Padilla after the 2nd plunking. I understand why he issued the warning but Cuzzi has to understand both team's perspective.

 

Anyway I know people will disagree with these thoughts but moving forward I think the White Sox can avoid some of this drama if they'd be a bit more aggressive from the get go.

[G&T]

I think we have broken down this topic enough, lets just go out and pummel them on field and show them up...ozzie style

 

Agreed. I would have been satisfied with Javy not giving up a ton of runs and winning yesterday rather than hitting someone.

[RockRaines]

I said it before and I'll say it again. IMO Ozzie Guillen is similar to Dusty Baker when it comes to handling young players, he completely demoralized Tracey today possibly mentally f***ing the guy for years to come.

WHoa, whoa, whoa. HOW so? What young players has he done this to? He has been nothing but supportive of Anderson during his run at CF, and has come out publically and said hes his CF'er. With Jenks he has done the same thing, and even made it a point to console him after a blown save. Who are these young players you speak of?

[mumu]

We get beaned twice, we don't retaliate, and our hitters get demoralized on top of it (what did we have, 3 hits against padillo ain 8 innings?).

 

If nothing else, we should have a very heated match up coming our way at 7:05 tonight.

[Kalapse]

WHoa, whoa, whoa. HOW so? What young players has he done this to? He has been nothing but supportive of Anderson during his run at CF, and has come out publically and said hes his CF'er. With Jenks he has done the same thing, and even made it a point to console him after a blown save. Who are these young players you speak of?

I think the way he's handeled Anderson and especially McCarthy has been absolutley horrible. It's on thing to publically "back" a guy like Anderson but platooning him with Mackowiak was just stupid as was threatening to send him down plus only playing him against lefties even though he has more trouble with them historically, what better way to get in a groove at the plate than to play 2-3 times a week and only against lefties. Did he actually expect BA to produce under those circumstances?

 

McCarthy should have been one of his major setup men from the get go, he's just that damn good. There's no reason for BMac to get the Mike Jackson treatment, he does you no good if you're using him as a mopup man and only pitching him 1-2 times a week, the guy needed regular work and was not getting it. Funny how when he begins to pitch more regularly he starts to dominate and is then thrust into the righty setup role.

 

That's 2 very blatant situations, I think he did a fairly good job with Jenks last year but with the other 2 rookies he's had over the course of his managing career he's seriously dropped the ball IMO.

 

7. Guillen's outburst in the dugout at Tracey, was it out of place? Tough to say. We don't know how the players reacted. It's entirely possible it may have brought them together. Certainly embarassing for Sean Tracey though, and no one likes to see a player get publically embarassed. But again, if it brings the team closer together, mission accomplished.

How exactly does demoralizing a 25 year old rookie with a total of 4 IP in his big league career bring a team together? "Hey guys look Ozzie's hootin' and hollerin' at Sean! Wow I feel real close to you right now, lets make beautiful baseball together." For some reason I just don't see that happening.

[Guest JimH]

How exactly does demoralizing a 25 year old rookie with a total of 4 IP in his big league career bring a team together? "Hey guys look Ozzie's hootin' and hollerin' at Sean! Wow I feel real close to you right now, lets make beautiful baseball together." For some reason I just don't see that happening.

 

Baseball clubhouses are unique places, and baseball's code of honor is really important to lots of players. There is a lot of stuff we don't know.

[Controlled Chaos]

I think the way he's handeled Anderson and especially McCarthy has been absolutley horrible. It's on thing to publically "back" a guy like Anderson but platooning him with Mackowiak was just stupid as was threatening to send him down plus only playing him against lefties even though he has more trouble with them historically, what better way to get in a groove at the plate than to play 2-3 times a week and only against lefties. Did he actually expect BA to produce under those circumstances?

 

McCarthy should have been one of his major setup men from the get go, he's just that damn good. There's no reason for BMac to get the Mike Jackson treatment, he does you no good if you're using him as a mopup man and only pitching him 1-2 times a week, the guy needed regular work and was not getting it. Funny how when he begins to pitch more regularly he starts to dominate and is then thrust into the righty setup role.

 

That's 2 very blatant situations, I think he did a fairly good job with Jenks last year but with the other 2 rookies he's had over the course of his managing career he's seriously dropped the ball IMO.

How exactly does demoralizing a 25 year old rookie with a total of 4 IP in his big league career bring a team together? "Hey guys look Ozzie's hootin' and hollerin' at Sean! Wow I feel real close to you right now, lets make beautiful baseball together." For some reason I just don't see that happening.

 

You would rather Ozzie use kid gloves with his players. You like a soft approach. Maybe when you get to be a manger you can use baby talk as a means of communication. Everyone can wear fuzzy pink bunny slippers and play duck duck goose in between innings. I can see Uribe now...pato pato!! Wouldn't that be swell!!

 

GMAFB...these are grown men. Tracey is 25 years old...If he can't handle his boss yelling at him for not getting the job done, then I certainly don't want to see him on the mound with the tying run on third base. If Tracey is a stand up guy, he will blame himself for Ozzies lashing. He didn't perform. Same with Anderson...he knows it's nobody's fault, but his own. I want Anderson in there, but I certainly wouldn't blame Ozzie for Andersons struggles. It's like there is no more accountablility in this day and age.

[RockRaines]

I do not agree with your assesment at all Kalapse. In fact I dont even want to start a debate because its obvious you are upset about last nights game, especially upset about Tracey. Ozzie is one of the best managers in the game putting trust in young players, and putting them in situations where they have a chance to succeed and earn a spot. Calling him otherwise is just misplaced frustration.

[Kalapse]

I do not agree with your assesment at all Kalapse. In fact I dont even want to start a debate because its obvious you are upset about last nights game, especially upset about Tracey. Ozzie is one of the best managers in the game putting trust in young players, and putting them in situations where they have a chance to succeed and earn a spot. Calling him otherwise is just misplaced frustration.

I've said this a few times, it has nothing to do with last nights game.

 

You would rather Ozzie use kid gloves with his players. You like a soft approach. Maybe when you get to be a manger you can use baby talk as a means of communication. Everyone can wear fuzzy pink bunny slippers and play duck duck goose in between innings. I can see Uribe now...pato pato!! Wouldn't that be swell!!

 

GMAFB...these are grown men. Tracey is 25 years old...If he can't handle his boss yelling at him for not getting the job done, then I certainly don't want to see him on the mound with the tying run on third base. If Tracey is a stand up guy, he will blame himself for Ozzies lashing. He didn't perform. Same with Anderson...he knows it's nobody's fault, but his own. I want Anderson in there, but I certainly wouldn't blame Ozzie for Andersons struggles. It's like there is no more accountablility in this day and age.

Yeah I'm not really sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted.

 

As for the small amount of your post that actually had something to do with my quote, I'm not blaiming Ozzie for BA's failures simply saying that it's not easy for him to bust out of any type of slump while sitting on the bench 4 games a week. Mackowiak's s*** defense in CF hurt this team far more than BA's s*** offense.

[southsideirish71]

You would rather Ozzie use kid gloves with his players. You like a soft approach. Maybe when you get to be a manger you can use baby talk as a means of communication. Everyone can wear fuzzy pink bunny slippers and play duck duck goose in between innings. I can see Uribe now...pato pato!! Wouldn't that be swell!!

 

GMAFB...these are grown men. Tracey is 25 years old...If he can't handle his boss yelling at him for not getting the job done, then I certainly don't want to see him on the mound with the tying run on third base. If Tracey is a stand up guy, he will blame himself for Ozzies lashing. He didn't perform. Same with Anderson...he knows it's nobody's fault, but his own. I want Anderson in there, but I certainly wouldn't blame Ozzie for Andersons struggles. It's like there is no more accountablility in this day and age.

 

Look at it this way. If this demoralizes him, how is he going to handle when 40k fans boo him when he gives up a game winning dong to a rival, and then proceeds to get ripped in the papers, and then on talk radio for the next few days. Baseball is not a kind game. Brian Anderson is a swell guy. How many people have him sent down already. How many people call in after games wanting him gone. If his mental accumen cant handle this then he is in for a long career in the minors. So far he has been tough enough to get through it. Part of this game is physical, part of this game is mental. If Tracey cant handle a lashing from Ozzie, then maybe he doesnt have the proper stones for the MLB.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Look at it this way. If this demoralizes him, how is he going to handle when 40k fans boo him when he gives up a game winning dong to a rival, and then proceeds to get ripped in the papers, and then on talk radio for the next few days. Baseball is not a kind game. Brian Anderson is a swell guy. How many people have him sent down already. How many people call in after games wanting him gone. If his mental accumen cant handle this then he is in for a long career in the minors. So far he has been tough enough to get through it. Part of this game is physical, part of this game is mental. If Tracey cant handle a lashing from Ozzie, then maybe he doesnt have the proper stones for the MLB.

 

 

THERES NO CRYING IN BASEBALL.

[Hangar18]

This is pretty interesting ........... I will say this. The BEST managers are the ones who DONT have one set of rules for dealing with their players. Each player is different. Some have to be coddled and paid attention to (BigFrank, Garland) others can be left alone (Thome, Konerko) and some have to be "yelled" at ......

 

I think Ozz knows best what works with his players, and if it doesnt work, hes smart enough to know to change course when he has to. At least thats what I get from him, and the players all say the same thing, they LOVE playing for Ozzie. Ozzie is a very complicated guy and thats great

[WCSox]

Roles IMO shoulda been reversed there if Vasquez isnt gonna sack up and do his own dirty work. Then make Montero come in and do it, Tracey is the better pitcher of the 2.

 

Wow... looks like I missed a hell of a game last night.

 

Agreed that plunking a Rangers batter was Javy's job. But Tracey supposedly threw at hime TWICE and missed both times??? Wow, I know that his control is awful, but still. It's just as well that "Wild Thing" Tracey is going back to Charlotte because he isn't going to be of any help to us this season.

 

But why Ozzie would go apes*** one a rookie like that... wow. That's disturbing.

 

Oh, and Buck Showalter can go f*** himself. He's going to get one of his players beaned in the head tonight.

[bighurt574]

If he could, I think Ozzie would even admit that the "public" lashing of Tracey was a mistake. It's never been his style to show up one of his own players like that.

 

Is Ozzie at risk for a suspension here even though no one was hit? Seems pretty clear to anyone that he brought in a pitcher with instructions to hit a guy.

 

Stories like this also worry me:

 

ESPN, quoting Suntimes

 

Having "leaks" like this can't be good either.

Edited June 15, 2006 by bighurt574

[WCSox]

I really hope that the White Sox retaliate tonight. It seems to me that around the league teams think that they can throw inside and intimidate the White Sox and nothing will happen. It always seems that we get hit several times in a game and then before we do anything we get warned and then we do nothing. We need to take charge tonight establish the inside part of the plate and HIT a Rangers batter. I don't care if it is Mark that does it in the 1st inning and he gets tossed. I will take a loss if it shows the rest of the league that if you mess with us you will be dealt with. I don't think that teams around the league are afraid of retaliation from the White Sox.

 

I care. I'm all for retaliation, but we need to win this series and I don't want our second-best starter getting tossed in the first inning... especially after all of the innings our 'pen has pitched over the past two days.

[That funky motion]

I care. I'm all for retaliation, but we need to win this series and I don't want our second-best starter getting tossed in the first inning... especially after all of the innings our 'pen has pitched over the past two days.

I agree. If Mark is in the 6th or 7th and the Sox have a good lead,Mark will plunk someone and enjoy doing it. No one will have to tell Mark to do it, he is the definition of team player.

[southsideirish71]

So who here thinks that Ozzie had Tracey sent down now because he missed Blalock, and not to make room on the 25 man for the impending trade of Riske to the sox.

[Capn12]

I still think it was done for the game events...and KW worked his ass off to get a 'pen arm...or maybe not

[whitesoxfan101]

The question that needs to be asked is.....why would Ozzie send Tracey in to hit somebody?? Even if you 100 percent agree with the move, Tracey has the worst control on the team and would be most likely to miss by far.

[Balta1701]

By the way folks, in terms of Javier retaliating after the first time AJ was hit...

 

AJ was hit to lead off the 2nd inning. The leadoff hitter in the bottom of the 2nd was Hank Blalock, who homered (would have been nice to hit him instead, eh?)

 

After that, Javy struck out DeRosa and Mench before Walking Kinsler. Barajas, their catcher, came up with 2 outs, but with a man on 1st, and you don't hit a guy and push a runner into scoring position. In the 3rd inning, Javy gave them enough baserunners as it was anyway. So if he wanted to go after the catcher or the DH, he couldn't do it until after the warnings were issued. The only good candidate would have been Kinsler, as he came up with 2 outs in the 3rd, but Javy had already given up a run that inning, so you don't always want to give them another baserunner then either.

[LVSoxFan]

As a general rule, you go hard on guys who should know what they're doing but you do not humiliate new guys in front of everybody like that. That event is so traumatic for them that they may never come back.

 

The vets know that they can do better so they can take the dressing down (like when Uribe didn't run out that fly ball once). But to lay into that guy like that after asking him to bean a batter.

 

Sorry, I love Ozzie but I thought this was out-of-control and wrong. I feel bad for Tracey.

 

The one thing I will give us is that how is it we're getting warned after being hit a second time (same guy!) and we've hit no one? That's bulls***.