VAfan Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) Before the season started, I took the position that Ozzie should have Jermaine Dye hit third, with Thome fourth and Konerko fifth. I had several reasons: 1. We went 16-1 to finish the 2005 season and Dye earned the WS MVP hitting third. 2. JD showed more patience at the plate in the #3 hole. 3. Moving JD up would maximize his value without diminishing JT's contribution. 4. It gives us a better L/R balance through the lineup. Crede, for example, could hit sixth and AJ seventh. But I never expected JD to hit like he has this year. Now, more than ever, I think Ozzie should make the switch. I just don't think JT is our best hitter. JD is. And our best hitter ought to hit third. Look at JD's stats with runners on, runners in scoring position, and runners in scoring position with 2 outs. Runners On 81 26 26 3 0 8 37 16 1 17 3 2 .321 .430 .654 1.084 Scoring Position 47 24 19 2 0 7 35 11 1 7 0 0 .404 .508 .894 1.402 Scoring Posn, 2 out 25 10 12 0 0 4 20 8 0 6 0 0 .480 .606 .960 1.566 Now compare those stellar numbers to JT's Runners On 101 43 34 5 0 12 46 27 2 28 0 0 .337 .474 .743 1.217 Scoring Position 52 35 21 3 0 7 35 17 1 15 0 0 .404 .534 .865 1.399 Scoring Posn, 2 out 23 13 7 0 0 2 9 3 0 7 0 0 .304 .385 .565 .950 Certainly JT is no slouch. Those are exceptional numbers. But JD's are clearly better. And I also don't think they register "productive outs." On that score, JT has 64 Ks to JD's 41 Ks. So Jermaine is more likely to advance the runner, especially a guy on third base. The other problem I would identify is our record against lefties. One challenge we have is that Iguchi has sucked this year against lefties. He's hitting them at a .207 clip v. 338 against righties. So, even if we use Ozuna to lead off, our lineup against lefties usually has Uribe and Anderson at the bottom, then Ozuna/Pods, Iguchi/Thome. Only Ozuna hits lefties in that group. And if a righty has started but a lefty comes out of the bullpen, they get a nice long streak of guys they can get out. If any of those guys get on, JD would likely have a chance to knock them in. Right now, Thome often makes the last out -- or strands the guy on third with less than two outs. So, while I don't think this would make a massive difference, I think it could make enough of a difference in close ballgames to be well worth making the switch. Edited June 16, 2006 by VAfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Ain't broke, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Dye's in the perfect spot. He's our best overall hitter right now. If he was batting 3rd, he'd be batting behind Pods and Iguchi. However, in the 5 spot, he's behind Thome and Konerko. Thome and PK are two of the better guys at getting on base. Thus, Dye has the ability to knock them in, and it doesn't always have to be with a homer. Thome's not the type of hitter who's going to hit sac flies, etc. It's one of the main reasons I hate playing small ball in front of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 QUOTE(Brian @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 08:39 PM) Ain't broke, don't fix it. Took the words right out of my mouth. Don't fix it if it's not broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 have you seen how many walks jim thome takes? by the way, big jim just hit 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Dye's stats could just be the result of hitting fifth. Why change it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFirebird Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 08:40 PM) Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Dye's in the perfect spot. He's our best overall hitter right now. If he was batting 3rd, he'd be batting behind Pods and Iguchi. However, in the 5 spot, he's behind Thome and Konerko. Thome and PK are two of the better guys at getting on base. Thus, Dye has the ability to knock them in, and it doesn't always have to be with a homer. Thome's not the type of hitter who's going to hit sac flies, etc. It's one of the main reasons I hate playing small ball in front of him. fathom is exactly correct on this one. Dye not only does a great job at knocking in Thome and PK when they get on base he is really comfy in the 5th hole without the pressure like hitting 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted June 16, 2006 Author Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 08:40 PM) Thome's not the type of hitter who's going to hit sac flies, etc. It's one of the main reasons I hate playing small ball in front of him. This seems to help make my point. Dye hit perfectly at the end of last season with small ball in front of him and Paul Konerko behind him. We went 16-1 and swept the World Series. As for the "it aint broke" comments, my response is, "it's also not hitting on all cylinders." We're still a game and half behind Detroit. Jim Thome, after starting off on fire, has dropped to .277. Age is likely to start wearing him down, so don't expect his numbers to improve from here on out. Also, as for Dye's great numbers being accumulated b/c he's hitting 5th, we already know from last year that he was fabulous in the #3 hole. He's just a much more well-rounded hitter than Jim Thome, and that's the guy who should hit 3rd in a lineup. I just think this lineup: Pods/Ozuna Iguchi Dye Thome Konerko Crede AJ Uribe/Cintron Anderson/Mack would be better than Pods/Ozuna Iguchi Thome Konerko Dye AJ Crede Uribe/Cintron Anderson/Mack How much better? At least a couple games better already -- or enough to put us in first place -- and one that would keep us in first. Edited June 16, 2006 by VAfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I feel like I'm back in '05, the return of the incredibly off base VAfan threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 16, 2006 -> 02:50 AM) How much better? At least a couple games better already -- or enough to put us in first place -- and one that would keep us in first. This isn't last year. Our offense has been very good basically all season. There's no excuse to switch up our 3-4-5....it's the best in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 This thread just makes me go: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 You are aware Konerko is hitting .310 right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SABR Sox Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Batting order isn't exactly the most important of aspects when talking about an efficent offense. It does matter, but shuffling your 3-4-5 hitters will make a minimal difference if any. That being said I'm fine with the way everything is now, but I wouldn't mind seeing Dye-Thome-Konerko Dye would be a great #3 hitter. Highest ISO (Isolated Power which is SLG-BA, great indicator of true power) on the team at 0.349. Thome at #4 becuase he's still getting on base and hitting for more power then Konerko. Konerko at #5, becuase as of now, Dye and Thome are having better seasons. Changing the hitters would only make a small difference, but I'm not against the idea at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 This is the absolute perfect way we should have the 3-4-5 set up. Look at how all 3 are feeding off eachother and all have had tremendous success this season. What a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawnhillegas Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I want 9 Pablo Ozuna's hitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 09:50 PM) As for the "it aint broke" comments, my response is, "it's also not hitting on all cylinders." We're still a game and half behind Detroit. That MUCH?!? Boy this is NOT working! I mean I know we have the 2ns best record in the AL and we are hitting higher and scoring more runs than last year, but obviously this is the problem. QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 09:50 PM) Jim Thome, after starting off on fire, has dropped to .277. Age is likely to start wearing him down, so don't expect his numbers to improve from here on out. So that BOMB to center was hit with a cane, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Nah, it won't have much of an impact either way, and guys have settled into a role at this point in the season. To risk throwing them off a familiar mental approach isn't worth the "theoretical" gains of having Dye bat earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 10:28 PM) That MUCH?!? Boy this is NOT working! I mean I know we have the 2ns best record in the AL and we are hitting higher and scoring more runs than last year, but obviously this is the problem. So that BOMB to center was hit with a cane, eh? With how far that thing was hit, it must have been hit with an aluminum bat. Edited June 16, 2006 by Rowand44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) With how far that thing was hit, it must have been hit with an aluminum bat. I did see Albert Belle and Jason Grimsley hanging out with Thome during BP. I believe Albert gave Grimsley a bat from his "personal" stash and Grimsley crawled through a air conditioning duct to place it in the bat rack. Edited June 16, 2006 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Pablo should hit 3rd!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 QUOTE(Yoda @ Jun 15, 2006 -> 08:50 PM) Took the words right out of my mouth. Don't fix it if it's not broken. How bout VaFan understands the game a little bit. Highest OBP, bat him 3rd. Thome, much higher OBP. He is a prototypical 3rd place hitter. Bad idea dude. PLus its no mistake Dye is having a career year batting 5th behind Thome and Kong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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