BrandoFan Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 If you think JR is going to add salary and keep players like Colon after a season in which the Sox underachieved and failed to make the playoffs(although I am not giving up on this season) than you don't understand baseball or JR. Its time to come back to reality What part of "the future of this team prety much hinges on making postseason this year and the resultant increase in attendance/revenue/national exposure"-type statements don't you understand? I know my reality, brotha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 As fra as trading Elo goes, if they price is right, no prob, How about Helton/Edmonds for Loaiza, Diaz, Almonte and Konerko?.....Just kidding but you get the idea) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Witesoxfan- Your post got me thinking, and here is what I came up with. Lee, Garland, Diaz, Ginter to Pittsburgh for Giles, and Torres. Konerko, Harris, and Rauch to Baltimore for Ponson and Mora. so the Sox shape up like 1) Jimenez (2B) 2) Mora (SS) 3) Thomas (1B) 4) Ordonez (RF) 5) Giles (LF) 6) Daubach (DH) 7) Crede (3B) 8) Borchard (CF) 9) Olivo © Rotation- Colon Loiaza Buehrle Ponson Wright then the Sox could stick Torres in the pen and get anything for White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 The problem is, now Valentin would wine on the bench, and Mora has shown that he can be a liability at SS, not that Valentin isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Brando....I agree whole-heartedly. This team should be winning right now. We're getting good pitching from our 1-3, we are getting solid pitching from our 4 and 5 guys in the rotation, our bullpen, aside from Gordon and Glover, has been solid over the past month or so(even White has been somewhat decent)....it is just the offense is so damn pathetic.....it's terrible. If it comes down to it, a retooling may be in order. I don't think we need that. What we need are 2 things....a very good lefty bat in the middle of the order, and a good lead off hitter. I hate Kenny Lofton to death, but if he came up and the price were right, I would definately try to get him....though other teams do have an interest in him(I'd have to consider that one for a long time, and if he sucked, we'd look like douchebags). As far as a lefty power hitter goes, I'd look at Jeromy Burnitz in New York. He looks like he's starting to come to life, and he has some tremendous power. Also, Geoff Jenkins in Milwaukee has some decent power. Both strikeout a ton, but they bring some good power to the table. Brian Giles would be nice, as would Jim Edmonds....I'm not so sure they'd be available whether it be because their team is in contention(Cardinals) or because the price would simply be too damn high or the player doesn't want to come to Chicago(Pirates and Giles). If we could get Giles for Rauch, Garland, and Lee....I'd definately have to consider it(assuming Giles would waive his no-trade clause and assuming we could resign him). A package of Rauch, Garland, Lee, Harris, and Diaz for Giles and Lofton could possibly get it done. I'd also look at Ponson in Baltimore....maybe get him to replace Garland if Stewart or Ginter couldn't get it done. People must not realize how much time is actually left....if we want to win this year, I believe we could actually get it done. A move or two....and we are right back in it. Kind of like what Julio Cruz did for the Sox back in 83. That team was 38-35 at the break...and won 99 games. It is possible. I am either way with a lefty bat in the middle. I don't think it will help as much as Sox fans think. Although if the Sox would trade for Beltran they could put him in the middle of the order and that would solve that problem while drasticly improving the D in CF. Why do you consistantly say that the Sox need a leadoff hitter? Jimenez is having a great year and is doing everything you want from a leadoff hitter. His speed is better then you give him credit for and is the only aspect that he is doing average or worse. He does have very good speed and if motivated, allowed to run by JM, and able to gain confidence has 20+ SB potential. So why do you constantly harp on the idea that the Sox need a leadoff hitter, and more importantly feel that it is a huge need that could take this team over the top? I think it can be argued that Jimenez is currently one of the top 10 leadoff hitters in the game(using this years numbers), so how much of an improvement do you really think the Sox could get. Lofton is not the answer. I am not giving up on this team, but trading a couple of propsects for an aging CF is not the answer. This is a team that will most likely rebuild in the next couple of years, so making a move like that will only hurt this team in the future. Burnitz is even a worse idea. He is the outfield version of Valentin only making 12+ million a year and a couple of years older. The only thing that he has done throughout his career is hit for power. He is a one dimension player. That type of player that the Sox have way to many of and need to get rid of and not add more of. Like Lofton it is not worth giving up a couple of prospects for a guy with no future on an organization that will be rebuilding. Jenkins is a little better idea. Still he is the left handed version of Lee. He is younger and cheaper then Burnitz, but still not a great option imo. Giles is a guy who I have always loved. He gives it his all and is one of the most underrated players in the game. I would love to add him, but his asking price is going to be extremely steep and maybe too steep. Ponson is also a guy that I really like. It appears that he is finally putting all of that potential together. He has been on the market before so he could probably be had. Baltimore would probably want Lee and a solid prospect for him. It might be an interesting trade. Edmonds is an interesting player, but if the Sox are going to go after a CF to build around why not go after Beltran? He is on the market unlike Edmonds, is 6 years younger, similar offensively, has way more speed, and is better defensively. Edmonds makes a lot of diving catches that look good to the fans, but that is because he has little range and balls that most CF catch without diving he has to dive to get. They will both make similar money when Beltran gets his no contract as well. It would also probably take a little less to get Beltran then Edmonds if he was on the market. So why not go after Beltran if you want the Sox to go after a CF to build around? "What part of "the future of this team prety much hinges on making postseason this year and the resultant increase in attendance/revenue/national exposure"-type statements don't you understand?" The majority of your posts in this thread are about the Sox adding payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Brando....I agree whole-heartedly. This team should be winning right now. We're getting good pitching from our 1-3, we are getting solid pitching from our 4 and 5 guys in the rotation, our bullpen, aside from Gordon and Glover, has been solid over the past month or so(even White has been somewhat decent)....it is just the offense is so damn pathetic.....it's terrible. If it comes down to it, a retooling may be in order. I don't think we need that. What we need are 2 things....a very good lefty bat in the middle of the order, and a good lead off hitter. I hate Kenny Lofton to death, but if he came up and the price were right, I would definately try to get him....though other teams do have an interest in him(I'd have to consider that one for a long time, and if he sucked, we'd look like douchebags). As far as a lefty power hitter goes, I'd look at Jeromy Burnitz in New York. He looks like he's starting to come to life, and he has some tremendous power. Also, Geoff Jenkins in Milwaukee has some decent power. Both strikeout a ton, but they bring some good power to the table. Brian Giles would be nice, as would Jim Edmonds....I'm not so sure they'd be available whether it be because their team is in contention(Cardinals) or because the price would simply be too damn high or the player doesn't want to come to Chicago(Pirates and Giles). If we could get Giles for Rauch, Garland, and Lee....I'd definately have to consider it(assuming Giles would waive his no-trade clause and assuming we could resign him). A package of Rauch, Garland, Lee, Harris, and Diaz for Giles and Lofton could possibly get it done. I'd also look at Ponson in Baltimore....maybe get him to replace Garland if Stewart or Ginter couldn't get it done. People must not realize how much time is actually left....if we want to win this year, I believe we could actually get it done. A move or two....and we are right back in it. Kind of like what Julio Cruz did for the Sox back in 83. That team was 38-35 at the break...and won 99 games. It is possible. I am either way with a lefty bat in the middle. I don't think it will help as much as Sox fans think. Although if the Sox would trade for Beltran they could put him in the middle of the order and that would solve that problem while drasticly improving the D in CF. Why do you consistantly say that the Sox need a leadoff hitter? Jimenez is having a great year and is doing everything you want from a leadoff hitter. His speed is better then you give him credit for and is the only aspect that he is doing average or worse. He does have very good speed and if motivated, allowed to run by JM, and able to gain confidence has 20+ SB potential. So why do you constantly harp on the idea that the Sox need a leadoff hitter, and more importantly feel that it is a huge need that could take this team over the top? I think it can be argued that Jimenez is currently one of the top 10 leadoff hitters in the game(using this years numbers), so how much of an improvement do you really think the Sox could get. Lofton is not the answer. I am not giving up on this team, but trading a couple of propsects for an aging CF is not the answer. This is a team that will most likely rebuild in the next couple of years, so making a move like that will only hurt this team in the future. Burnitz is even a worse idea. He is the outfield version of Valentin only making 12+ million a year and a couple of years older. The only thing that he has done throughout his career is hit for power. He is a one dimension player. That type of player that the Sox have way to many of and need to get rid of and not add more of. Like Lofton it is not worth giving up a couple of prospects for a guy with no future on an organization that will be rebuilding. Jenkins is a little better idea. Still he is the left handed version of Lee. He is younger and cheaper then Burnitz, but still not a great option imo. Giles is a guy who I have always loved. He gives it his all and is one of the most underrated players in the game. I would love to add him, but his asking price is going to be extremely steep and maybe too steep. Ponson is also a guy that I really like. It appears that he is finally putting all of that potential together. He has been on the market before so he could probably be had. Baltimore would probably want Lee and a solid prospect for him. It might be an interesting trade. Edmonds is an interesting player, but if the Sox are going to go after a CF to build around why not go after Beltran? He is on the market unlike Edmonds, is 6 years younger, similar offensively, has way more speed, and is better defensively. Edmonds makes a lot of diving catches that look good to the fans, but that is because he has little range and balls that most CF catch without diving he has to dive to get. They will both make similar money when Beltran gets his no contract as well. It would also probably take a little less to get Beltran then Edmonds if he was on the market. So why not go after Beltran if you want the Sox to go after a CF to build around? "What part of "the future of this team prety much hinges on making postseason this year and the resultant increase in attendance/revenue/national exposure"-type statements don't you understand?" The majority of your posts in this thread are about the Sox adding payroll. We disgreed on the Sosa issue, but, dude, I agrre with everything you say in this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I say keep Konerko until his trade value rises, then getting any decent shortstop prospect would be nice. I don't think we need any more power in our lineup, more of a guy with good defense and strong baseball fundamentals, for example Alex Cora. Obviously Beltran would be a perfect fit, but the chances of JR spending the money is slim to none. Im the type that is all about having a strong pitching staff. If your pitching is consistent, your offense is bound to turn around sometime. I really like Ponson and he is certainly having a great season, getting him would make our rotation that much stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC2784 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I say keep Konerko until his trade value rises, then getting any decent shortstop prospect would be nice. I don't think we need any more power in our lineup, more of a guy with good defense and strong baseball fundamentals, for example Alex Cora. Obviously Beltran would be a perfect fit, but the chances of JR spending the money is slim to none. Im the type that is all about having a strong pitching staff. If your pitching is consistent, your offense is bound to turn around sometime. I really like Ponson and he is certainly having a great season, getting him would make our rotation that much stronger. Not to mention the fact that KC would never trade Beltran to the Sox, and, like you said, he'd be expensive as s*** to sign with Bora$ as his agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Does anybody here think Philadelphia would give us Joe Roa, and Gavin Floyd for Loiaza. Roa is pretty old, but he puts up nice strikeout numbers before they sent him down at the end of May, and I think he could thrive in a bullpen role in the majors. Gavin Floyd is one of the better lefthanded pitching prospects, obviously he would be great to have in the orginization. I don't think Philadelphia would pull the trigger on this one, but if they stay in contention I am sure they would be tempted to. Any thoughts Jesus Christ Joe Roa!!!!! Hello! The guy hasn't stuck with 4 of 5 major league teams already, He's a Journey man, for crying out loud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Consider two things: 1) don't sign anybody associated with agent Boros, 2) if you are thinking of signing any free agent next off season, remember that you will be giving up a VERY high draft choice. There are a dozen or so studs out there that can be had for our top value, tradable players that won't cost 10 million per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 lol im with ya on this one josh.... why in the world would anyone want to give up the only pitcher whos doing a job for us right now.........doesnt make any sense..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hell and for some guy who sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hell and for some guy who sucks Josh, I believe Gavin Floyd was the real catch in the proposed deal. Which is why Philly would never make that trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I know that. I just liked the explanation about Roa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Joe Roa was thrown in, like I said, because he I think he could perform well out of the pen. It would be like an experiment. But philly probably wouldn't do Loiaza for Floyd straight up anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 No one wants Pk right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 You don't trade the future. Dumb GMs trade the future. You have to try and see if the GM will bite, because if you don't do it, you'll never know. Smoltz for Doyle Alexander 2003?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Dumb GMs trade the future. You have to try and see if the GM will bite, because if you don't do it, you'll never know. Smoltz for Doyle Alexander 2003?????? I'd take it in a hurry if you can guarantee me that is how it will all work out. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 We agree on Giles. Edmonds is an interesting player, but if the Sox are going to go after a CF to build around why not go after Beltran? He is on the market unlike Edmonds, is 6 years younger, similar offensively I am a big fan of Beltran, especially his speed? Between 2000-01, he stole 44 bases while getting caught a grand total of...ONCE. Are you f***ing kidding me?! However I thnk you are seriously underrating Edmond's CF skillz (Edmonds gets best jumps on the ball and his arm is extremely effective, tho Beltran is a more of a natural athlete), while overrating Beltran's offense (over the last 4 years, Edmonds leads him by a whopping 150 OPS points, which is almost as much as the difference between Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds this year). How much money will Beltran be asking? 10-12 mill over 6 years? If A-Rod can get 25 and the only thing he has over Carlos is power, while B beats him in baserunning....surely Boras would want at least half of that don't you think? Not that KC would want him going to the co-divisionee, mind you.... Meanwhile Edmonds is signed through, what, 2005? He is a big, marketable name, his 8.50 Mill tag is quite reasonable, and since his game was never about pure speed, at 32 he still has A LOT of baseball left in him, not unlike Jose Valentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 We agree on Giles. I am a big fan of Beltran, especially his speed? Between 2000-01, he stole 44 bases while getting caught a grand total of...ONCE. Are you f***ing kidding me?! However I thnk you are seriously underrating Edmond's CF skillz (Edmonds gets best jumps on the ball and his arm is extremely effective, tho Beltran is a more of a natural athlete), while overrating Beltran's offense (over the last 4 years, Edmonds leads him by a whopping 150 OPS points, which is almost as much as the difference between Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds this year). How much money will Beltran be asking? 10-12 mill over 6 years? If A-Rod can get 25 and the only thing he has over Carlos is power, while B beats him in baserunning....surely Boras would want at least half of that don't you think? Not that KC would want him going to the co-divisionee, mind you.... Meanwhile Edmonds is signed through, what, 2005? He is a big, marketable name, his 8.50 Mill tag is quite reasonable, and since his game was never about pure speed, at 32 he still has A LOT of baseball left in him, not unlike Jose Valentin. If given a choice I would take Beltran over Edmonds. I might have underestimated Edmonds and overestimated Beltran, but not by much. IMO, Beltran might be the 4th best defensive CF in the game behind Jones, Hunter, and Cameron. Edmonds does get good jumps, but he still ranks in the bottom half in range for CF. He would be better defensively then what the Sox currently have, but I would still take Beltran defensively, especially considering that Edmonds is on the wrong side of 32. I think you are overestimating Edmonds and underestimating Beltran offensively. Here are the numbers that they have average over the last 3 years(for Beltran its doesn't include the 2000 season because he missed almost half the year). Beltran .280/25/100 100 runs 30 2B 5 3B 50 BB 120 SO 25 SB .850 OPS Edmons .300/30/100 95 runs 30 2B 1 3B 90 BB 130 SO 5 SB .970 OPS The only big difference is walks. Edmonds hits for a little better average and power as well. However, if you look Beltran has steadily inproved both his walk total and HR total. He is on pace to set career highs in both catogories this year even though he missed the 1st couple of weeks in the season. Also take into consideration Beltran's SB, especially the fact that he has a great percentage. Finally add the fact that Beltran is entering his prime, while Edmonds will probably start decreasing in the next couple of years when father time catches up, and the offensive difference between the isn't as great as you make it out to be. Beltran is one of the top offensive CF's in the game, and when you factor in his defense you have arguable one of the top 5 CF's in the game who is just entering his prime. I think 10-12 m/yr is very reasonable. If you have been following FA since ARod you will notice that prices have actually been coming down. Also Boras is starting to get shafted by teams not wanting to deal with him. The best evidence of this is the way Boras represented drafties fall in the draft to later rounds then their talent would dictate. I really think people will be surprised by how much less Beltran will get then they had figured that he would. Is Edmonds contract steady, ie does he make 8.5 for the rest of the years or does it steadily increase each year? I like Edmonds, I just think Beltran would be a better fit for a team that is restructing/rebuilding. Beltran is also on the market, while I am sure that St. Louis won't be trading Edmonds any time in the near future. It is a pipe dream to get either though as we know all to well that JR will not increase the payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Beltran will either cost a s***potful of prospects or our #1 draft choice next year which will probably be in the top ten. Plus a lot of money. I can't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Beltran will either cost a s***potful of prospects or our #1 draft choice next year which will probably be in the top ten. Plus a lot of money. I can't see it. You can't trade draft picks in MLB. That was something they wanted to change in the CBA but couldn't agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I'm all for keeping our rare players who are kicking serious ass. Let's wait until we get a new GM before we make any more trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Isn't beltran like 5 or 6 years Younger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 ws61282, you've brought up very reasonable points, but one of them- IMO, Beltran might be the 4th best defensive CF in the game behind Jones, Hunter, and Cameron. Edmonds does get good jumps, but he still ranks in the bottom half in range for - I gotta take a slight exception to: as flawed as both RangeFactor and ZoneRating are, Edmonds is kicking Beltran's ass in both categories in addition to leading him in assists and (fewer) errors. I still think Carlos is excellent, but Edmonds is not just a slowass white boy styling his way into highlight reels-- he's got legitimate GG skillz. (I'd take King Vlad and Giles over them anyday, though.) But, like you sad, this point is moot since JR ain't getting either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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