Ben Stein

[minors]

ben & god

 

 

 

If they know of him at all, many folks think Ben Stein is just a

quirky actor/comedian who talks in a monotone. He's also a very

intelligent attorney who knows how to put ideas and words together in

such a way as to sway juries and make people think clearly.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS

Sunday Morning Commentary, Sunday, 12/18/05.

Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating

heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on

the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits

and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They

never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it

change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why

are they so important?

I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all

about Tom Cruise's wife.

Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a

subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are.

If this is what it means to be no longer young, it's not so bad.

Next confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it

does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful

lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I

don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas

trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I

don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a

ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers

and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me

at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection

near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as

fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think

Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think

people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around,

period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an

explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I

don't like it being shoved down my throat.

 

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that

we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship

God as we understand Him?

I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.

But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica

came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is

a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny,

it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane

Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?"

(regarding Katrina)

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She

said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but

for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out

of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How

can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we

demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.

I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her

body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools,

and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible

says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor

as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they

misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we

might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We

said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why

they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to

kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it

out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the

world's going to hell.

Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible

says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like

wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord,

people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through

cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school

and workplace.

 

Are you laughing?

 

 

 

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many

on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or

what they will think of you for sending it.

 

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us

than what God thinks of us.

 

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it...

no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process,

don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

 

Hey Ben, stick to writing the Nixon speeches.

 

The chasm of logic between "We don't teach the Bible in schools" and the result of "That means there's school shootings, etc." is asinine at best and at worst spurious. Christians aren't being pushed around for being Christians -- a vocal minority of Christians are being dealt with in the legal sphere because they tend to go for violating the establishment clause.

 

And not knowing that the US was not founded as a religious nation -- that's just ignorance. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

 

Stein should really check out the research in books like The Way We Never Were -- i.e. teen pregnancy being the highest during the 1950s etc. There were no "good old days". It is merely a propaganda ploy to be wielded by moralists and people with a persecution complex.

 

He does an excellent job of misrepresenting the opposition (i.e. anybody who challenges the fundamentalist Christians must want an explicitly atheist country) and serving up platitudes that fall apart upon closer inspection.

[WCSox]

I'm beginning to see a correlation between rejecting God and being angry all of the time.

[Rex Kickass]

Well, then maybe you should accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your savior.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Well, then maybe you should accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your savior.

Pastafarians, unite!

 

May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

[Gregory Pratt]

Hey Ben, stick to writing the Nixon speeches.

 

Ben Stein is a political hack -- a cuter Pat Buchanan, if you will, except that nobody ever thought of Stein as a realistic Deep Throat!

 

The chasm of logic between "We don't teach the Bible in schools" and the result of "That means there's school shootings, etc." is asinine at best and at worst spurious.

 

I was discussing with a teacher the other day, and told him that, in my opinion, shootings and murders and the types of things that go on in our society are the inevitable result of having a free society. In a society such as ours, it's inevitable that someone will burn down a school as a means of "expression"; that someone will shoot someone at work or at school. Etc. etc. The trick is to contain them, and to promote as much as possible a healthy society, which ultimately leads to families -- not necessarily nuclear, either -- being good families.

 

It doesn't have much to do with Religion, or it doesn't have to.

 

He and I then started talking about gun crime, and he told me about Colombine, and that the killers violated dozens of gun laws. Then he cracked a joke or two about how "Liberals wanted MORE gun laws! They'd already violated dozens -- I guess one more would've done the trick!" He's a little too hard Right for my taste, but he's a funny fellow.

 

And not knowing that the US was not founded as a religious nation -- that's just ignorance. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

 

I think it's clear that I don't believe in a theocracy or anything, and that I'm not a religious fire-breather or anything. I just wanted to say that I find this entire debate about "ARE WE A CHRISTIAN NATION!?!?!" to be both humorous and interesting. You know, for every bit of proof that says Washington wasn't a Christian, Jefferson an Atheist and Adams a cynic with Christian leanings (sometimes), people will point to the Puritans or to the fact that Madison was on a committee that approved Chaplains at the Congress for a prayer.

 

I think it's apparent that we weren't founded as a "Christian Nation" (read: Theocracy). But I think it's interesting to watch others hash it out.

[BHAMBARONS]

This country was certainly not founded for Christianity there is proof everywhere the constitution, and our own founding fathers who this to be a country free of oppression.

[minors]

This country was certainly not founded for Christianity there is proof everywhere the constitution, and our own founding fathers who this to be a country free of oppression.

 

Were you around in 1789? I like it how you think you know everything face it you do not know one thing about what the founding fathers were thinking and they certainly didn't want to have Satan worshiping shoved down our throats. Please quit acting like you know everything when you really nothing you just act like it.

[BHAMBARONS]

Were you around in 1789? I like it how you think you know everything face it you do not know one thing about what the founding fathers were thinking and they certainly didn't want to have Satan worshiping shoved down our throats. Please quit acting like you know everything when you really nothing you just act like it.

 

 

THE PROOF IS IN THE BOOKS and DOCUMENTS. I am not making any of this stuff up it is clearly in the documents. So please come at me with more than insults I am getting tired of them.

[kapkomet]

minors, find a better way to say things. That's all I'll say.

 

Next, I think the country was founded on both theocracy and religion. They wanted a balance of both. I think you'll find evidence that supports both.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

minors, find a better way to say things. That's all I'll say.

 

Next, I think the country was founded on both theocracy and religion. They wanted a balance of both. I think you'll find evidence that supports both.

Yes, Puritans of the 1600's with fundamentalism.

 

America was founded as a nation (and not the conglomeration of colonies) during the Enlightenment. So it was a lot of Deism (God is like the watchmaker who merely made it and now doesn't do anything to interfere), humanist tendencies of logic/reason and people who really questioned the established religions of the time.

 

It seems like they wanted the wall of separation between church and state to be there not only to stop state instituted religion/religious ideology from taking hold but also to prevent things like in Stalin's Russia (I know, an anachronistic analogy but it works for the point) where the church is expressly persecuted by the government into near extinction. They saw what a religion infused in the government could do (i.e. England) and were in opposition to it and the threat it had to the Freemason, Deist and Enlightenment principles they wanted to establish.

 

That way those who wanted to pray to whatever person they wanted to and it wouldn't have their doctrine infused in government policy (not to mention government not being able to really crack down on any religions who expressed the legal point of view the government may not like)

[YASNY]

Now that you've all taken your shots at the original post in this in this thread, I want to thank minors for posting it. I love the quote by Anne Graham and totally agree with her. I also believe this nation was founded based on Christian morals and law, but not necessarily as a "Christian nation".

[Gregory Pratt]

Now that you've all taken your shots at the original post in this in this thread, I want to thank minors for posting it. I love the quote by Anne Graham and totally agree with her. I also believe this nation was founded based on Christian morals and law, but not necessarily as a "Christian nation".

 

Please tell me how that works when the men who were most notable for the Constitution were either Atheists or Deists, because as it reads, I don't buy that. Last time I checked, the Constitution was written based on the teachings of Locke and Rousseau and not Christ.

[Kid Gleason]

It's funny. All this arguing about Christianity from this original post.

 

Next confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish.

[WCSox]

Please tell me how that works when the men who were most notable for the Constitution were either Atheists or Deists, because as it reads, I don't buy that. Last time I checked, the Constitution was written based on the teachings of Locke and Rousseau and not Christ.

 

Few of the Founding Fathers were Atheists. I can't name any off the top of my head. The Catholic and Anglican Churches were trampling on everybody's rights back then, so it's not quite surprisng that quite a few of them (including Jefferson and Franklin) became Deists. Washington was a Christian who moved closer towards Deism later.

 

That said, the average colonist was not part of the "in vogue" Deist movement and considered themselves Christian. Given that even Deists believed in the basic moral values taught by Christianity, it's very fair to say that the our nation's system of laws were founded on basic Christian principles.

 

EDITED

Edited June 21, 2006 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Few of the Founding Fathers were Atheists. I can't name any off the top of my head. The Catholic and Anglican Churches were trampling on everybody's rights back then, so it's not quite surprisng that quite a few of them (including Jefferson and Franklin) became Deists. Washington was a Christian who moved closer towards Deism later.

 

That said, the average colonist was not part of the "in vogue" Deist movement and considered themselves Christian. Given that even Deists believed in the basic moral values taught by Christianity, it's very fair to say that the Constitution was founded on basic Christian principles.

 

I boldened the portion I found most objectionable.

Let's say that the inventor of Hockey believed in basic Christian principles.

Does that mean Hockey was founded on basic Christian principles?

 

My attempt to ridicule your point by stretching it to fit other scenarios aside, that statement is absurd. What are basic Christian principles, exactly? Let's say they're the ten commandments. Last time I checked, "Don't cheat on your wife" and "Don't curse" aren't American laws or Constitutional, neither is "Respect your parents." "Don't kill, don't steal," etc. etc. are all basic Christian principles, but they're basic principles in every Religion.

 

I wasn't aware, my dear boy, that the Bible contained principles saying that freedom of speech is paramount and that the government has no right to search your home without a warrant. I guess I should re-read Matthew to find a comprehensive guide to government, starting with Checks and Balances, that the Founders took and molded into the Constitution.

 

To say that the Constitution was founded on Christian principles is to grasp at straws. Let's assume that they were all Christians, just for kicks. (And by all, I mean the Founders.) The Constitution was written based on the teachings of Locke and Rousseau. They weren't thinking, "What would Jesus Do?!" as they wrote it and there's not a damn thing to suggest that.

 

Jefferson was clearly not a Christian. He read the Bible and re-wrote it to delete everything "supernatural" and impossible. Adams once wrote in a letter to Jefferson that Christianity was a fraud. And Washington? Everyone attaches political beliefs to him that he may or may not have had, but he was a Deist for much of his life, and that's all that really matters there.

[NorthSideSox72]

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it, Minors.

 

I think he started off really well, and made some good points. I agree that the display of ANY non-harmful religious act only offends those who are insecure in their own beliefs. I wish people in this country were more tolerant of the fact that others around them are different. And maybe even enjoy that.

 

But the quote from Anne Graham is just a gussied-up way of making an excuse for things. As soon as you think Katrina was a penalty for removing prayer from schools, you lose the ability to think or act rationally. And further, you ignore real problems and eschew personal responsibility, instead believing God controls all actions. That is when we become lemmings. I'd prefer make decisions and take control of the things I can, and try to make the world better with my own two hands.

[WCSox]

I boldened the portion I found most objectionable.

Let's say that the inventor of Hockey believed in basic Christian principles.

Does that mean Hockey was founded on basic Christian principles?

 

My mistake. I meant to say that our nation's system of law was founded on basic Christian principles.

 

"Don't curse" aren't American laws or Constitutional, neither is "Respect your parents." "Don't kill, don't steal," etc. etc. are all basic Christian principles, but they're basic principles in every Religion.

 

Even Deism? I'm not so sure about that. It's my understanding that divine justice isn't a major tenent of Deism.

 

Jefferson was clearly not a Christian. He read the Bible and re-wrote it to delete everything "supernatural" and impossible. Adams once wrote in a letter to Jefferson that Christianity was a fraud. And Washington? Everyone attaches political beliefs to him that he may or may not have had, but he was a Deist for much of his life, and that's all that really matters there.

 

I said that Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian. Try reading again, "my dear boy." :rolly

 

Everyone attaches political beliefs to him that he may or may not have had, but he was a Deist for much of his life, and that's all that really matters there.

 

Washington was a vestyrman in the Anglican Church in Virginia. But I suppose that doesn't matter, right? :rolly

Edited June 21, 2006 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

My mistake. I meant to say that our nation's system of law was founded on basic Christian principles.

I said that Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian.

 

Well, I still think it's a stretch to say that our system of law is based on basic Christian principles, but it's a far stronger case than the non-existent one for a Christian Constitution.

Why do I think it a stretch? Like I said, basic Christian principles are the basic principles of just about every society, religious and otherwise. "Don't kill, don't steal, don't rape" -- these aren't exactly exclusive to the Bible.

 

And Jefferson may have been a Deist, might've been an Atheist.

 

Agree to disagree.

 

Even Deism? I'm not so sure about that. It's my understanding that divine justice isn't a major tenent of Deism.

 

And where, exactly, is it a tenet of the Constitution or even of our Law system?

 

I said that Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian. Try reading again, "my dear boy." :rolly

 

As I said earlier, before you edited your post, we'll agree to disagree.

The time he lived in wasn't quite as open to Atheists.

 

Washington was a vestyrman in the Anglican Church in Virginia. But I suppose that doesn't matter, right? :rolly

 

No, not really -- or, not in the end. It doesn't affect the argument over Christianity and Law/the Constitution, and it doesn't change the fact that Washington was a) no Theocrat and B) came to associate himself with Freemasonry and Deists.

[WCSox]

And Jefferson may have been a Deist, might've been an Atheist.

 

Agree to disagree.

 

Jefferson never claimed to be an Atheist and, by almost all accounts, was a Deist. The fact that you WANT him to be an Atheist to support your argument won't change history.

 

Why do I think it a stretch? Like I said, basic Christian principles are the basic principles of just about every society, religious and otherwise. "Don't kill, don't steal, don't rape" -- these aren't exactly exclusive to the Bible.

 

Except Deism, where divine justice doesn't play a major role. Those ideas had been rooted in Christianity LONG before the colonists came to America. Deists like Jefferson and Franklin didn't create them.

[Gregory Pratt]

Jefferson never claimed to be an Atheist and, by almost all accounts, was a Deist. The fact that you WANT him to be an Atheist to support your argument won't change history.

Except Deism, where divine justice doesn't play a major role. Those ideas had been rooted in Christianity LONG before the colonists came to America. Deists like Jefferson and Franklin didn't create them.

 

I did some basic research, and am going to retract the conviction that Jefferson was an Atheist.

I will say, however, that I didn't say he WAS one, just that he wasn't a Christian and that the Founders were either Atheists or Deists. I believe I overstated the Atheist presence, and take that back -- however, I was absolutely right about Christianity.

 

Hey, listen: Divine Justice doesn't play any significant role in American Justice -- not in the Constitution, not in the public arena.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the talk of Divine Justice. That not all of Christianity's basic principles are universal? Congratulations, but the ones that are are basic tenets in American Justice while Divine Justice isn't.

 

Jefferson never claimed to be an Atheist and, by almost all accounts, was a Deist. The fact that you WANT him to be an Atheist to support your argument won't change history.

 

:rolly

 

You want to accuse me of re-writing history? Whatever. I made an error that I rectified.

 

And, by the way, I believe you to be implying that I'm an Atheist and therefore "want" Jefferson to be an Atheist. I'm not an Atheist, mate. Thanks for playing, tiger.

[WCSox]

Hey, listen: Divine Justice doesn't play any significant role in American Justice -- not in the Constitution, not in the public arena.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the talk of Divine Justice. That not all of Christianity's basic principles are universal? Congratulations, but the ones that are are basic tenets in American Justice while Divine Justice isn't.

:rolly

 

Divine Justice is what the overwhelmingly-Christian Western society used to enforce "thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, etc." before it had the infrastructure to do so. The basic "laws" of Christianity (and Judaism) eventually became the basis of our legal system. Why is that so difficul to understand?

 

And, by the way, I believe you to be implying that I'm an Atheist and therefore "want" Jefferson to be an Atheist. I'm not an Atheist, mate. Thanks for playing, tiger.

 

Oh, so you have ESP now? I never said anything about your religious affiliation and, frankly, don't really give a crap. What you "believe" that I'm thinking is completely baseless and prejudicial. Try again, Scooter. :rolly

Edited June 21, 2006 by WCSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Divine Justice is what the overwhelmingly-Christian Western society used to enforce "thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, etc." before it had the infrastructure to do so. The basic "laws" of Christianity (and Judaism) eventually became the basis of our legal system. Why is that so difficul to understand?

 

We're just about done here, Skip. If you're making the argument that "divine justice" is what we used to enforce our laws then you're off the deep end. Divine justice is the teaching that God could pardon sin by a mere act of will, and without any satisfaction to his justice i.e. without an atonement. Yeah, that's what our legal system was and is based on.

 

I suppose that innocent until proven guilty, the concept of search warrants, the appeals process -- these things of our system of law are all based on Christianity. Or that they're nowhere near as important as "divine justice" is to our legal system!

 

Oh, so you have ESP now? I never said anything about your religious affiliation and, frankly, don't really give a crap. What you "believe" that I'm thinking is completely baseless and prejudicial. Nice smear tactic, Scooter. :rolly

 

I wasn't aware that you had to have ESP to get a hunch as to where someone's taking something. I was clarifying the point: if you are saying I want him to be an Atheist, the implication is that I'm an atheist with an agenda. I'm not.

 

And I retracted about Jefferson.

 

Ah, and I see you changed your post.

I guess that me saying, "I'm not an Atheist with an agenda" in more words -- that me clarifying that I'm not an Atheist, and making sure that that implication isn't there -- no longer qualifies as a "smear tactic" but is merely worthy of a "try again Scooter."

 

I'm glad to see you are no longer accusing me of smear tactics, Captain.

[Gregory Pratt]

I am, so you know, done with this thread.

[WCSox]

We're just about done here, Skip. If you're making the argument that "divine justice" is what we used to enforce our laws then you're off the deep end. Divine justice is the teaching that God could pardon sin by a mere act of will, and without any satisfaction to his justice i.e. without an atonement. Yeah, that's what our legal system was and is based on.

 

You're missing the point... again. The threat of Divine Justice WAS used to enforce laws a loooong time ago. Many of our nation's current laws are based on what is taught in The Bible. There's no denying that. The colonists who later founded our nation were also overwhelmingly Christian. Sounds like you need a history lesson, Scooter.

 

The influence of Christianity in our nation also goes beyond law. The most obvious example would be Christmas being a Federal holiday. How many vacation days do the Chinese and Saudis get for Christmas?

 

I suppose that innocent until proven guilty, the concept of search warrants, the appeals process -- these things of our system of law are all based on Christianity. Or that they're nowhere near as important as "divine justice" is to our legal system!

 

Obviously, not ALL of our legal system is rooted in Christianity. Even someone like you can figure that out on your own.

 

I wasn't aware that you had to have ESP to get a hunch as to where someone's taking something. I was clarifying the point: if you are saying I want him to be an Atheist, the implication is that I'm an atheist with an agenda. I'm not.

 

And I retracted about Jefferson.

 

No problem with the Jefferson part, but you claiming that me WANTING you to be an atheist is beyond stupid. It's dishonest and childish.