Javier Vazquez

[ZoomSlowik]

Overall, there isn't a whit of difference between Freddy Garcia's and Javier Vazquez's numbers this year. Freddie, in fact, is the one giving up the long ball more frequently -- 17 v. 9 for JV.

 

Freddy Garcia 15 15 9 4 0 9 0 96.2 102 50 51 17 24 57 5.31 103.3 1.30 4.66

Javier Vazquez 15 15 8 4 0 8 0 95.1 101 53 54 9 24 75 7.08 103.9 1.31 5.00

 

So, both of these guys need to pick it up. But I think there is evidence they will. We know Freddie's history. Here's Vazquez's game log until last night.

 

Apr. 8 @KC L 4-3 7.0 5 2 2 0 1 7 5 11 98 28 65 - - 2.57

Apr. 14 TOR L 13-7 6.0 9 7 7 1 1 4 7 9 102 27 29 L(0-1) - 6.23

Apr. 19 KC W 4-0 8.0 2 0 0 0 1 7 6 9 108 26 84 W(1-1) - 3.86

Apr. 25 @SEA W 13-3 6.0 4 2 2 0 2 2 9 3 109 22 56 W(2-1) - 3.67

May. 1 @CLE W 8-6 6.0 6 1 0 0 3 7 7 5 100 26 62 W(3-1) - 3.00

May. 6 KC W 9-2 7.2 4 2 2 0 0 6 10 8 116 26 69 W(4-1) - 2.88

May. 13 @MIN L 8-4 5.2 10 7 7 1 0 2 10 9 86 29 23 L(4-2) - 3.89

May. 18 @TB L 5-4 7.0 8 5 5 2 1 4 7 13 109 30 44 L(4-3) - 4.22

May. 23 OAK W 9-3 6.0 6 3 3 1 4 3 9 7 109 29 47 W(5-3) - 4.25

May. 29 @CLE W 11-0 6.0 2 0 0 0 3 4 7 6 106 23 69 W(6-3) - 3.86

Jun. 3 TEX W 8-6 6.1 11 5 5 0 1 7 10 10 115 32 37 W(7-3) - 4.14

Jun. 9 CLE W 5-4 5.2 7 3 3 0 1 9 10 4 110 29 51 - - 4.19

Jun. 14 @TEX L 8-0 6.0 10 6 6 2 2 7 11 6 99 30 33 L(7-4) - 4.54

Jun. 20 STL W 20-6 6.0 7 2 2 0 2 3 11 8 97 26 51 W(8-4) - 4.43

 

Out of 15 starts, 9 have been "quality" starts. That's not very consistent. However, it is also very possible he'll have a run like he had at the start of the season with 5 out of 6 very good games. After all, none of our starters has been perfectly consistent this year -- not even undefeated Jose Contreras.

 

I think the jury is still out on Vazquez. But there's no way we'll trade him mid-year at this point (and I was the one who wrote the "Sign Contreras, Trade Vazquez mid-year" thread in the offseason). McCarthy has been inconsistent himself and still gives us important bullpen depth.

 

We need to hang in there with our starters. Once our bullpen comes around -- and with the addition of Riske and the maturation of Matt Thornton it is looking a lot better -- I expect our starters to start to click.

 

Actually, 9 quality starts right now is pretty damn good. Only 25 pitchers in baseball have more than that (surprisingly, none of them are White Sox). Javy's problem is that when he is off he gets completely rocked (at least his last couple of years).

 

Edit- Oops, Javier only has 8 quality starts. 47 pitchers have more than that.

 

Look, he's going through a rough stretch. That's pretty much what it comes down to. In April he a 3.67 ERA with a .211 BAA, and in May he had a 3.99 ERA with a .243 BAA. He's been awful in June though, I don't even really want to post the numbers. It's the same thing that happened with Contreras in between his good stretches last year, and it happens to pretty much every pitching in the league at some point. Even in June though, 2 of his 5 games weren't that bad. He needs to iron out some kinks. If he's keeps pitching like this then we really have an issue, but I'll worry about that bridge when we cross it.

 

So we're basically making generalizations about one 5 start stretch in his first year with the Sox. You really need to give a player more than a couple of months to prove himself. As we can see in this case, all it takes is one bad month to screw up his totals. I really don't see us trading him before next season, and that's a good thing. That's a heck of a knee-jerk reaction otherwise. Besides, it's not like we'd be able to get anything for him right now anyways. We don't need to make the Loazia for Contreras trade in reverse.

Edited June 26, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[RockRaines]

Javy was ONE pitch away from keeping this game at 2-1. One freaking hanger. So maddening.

[Harry Chappas]

Friday and Saturday and next week will conclude the thoughts of Garland and Vazquez and if they can be depended on for the remainder of the season. Starts at cubs and home against Baltimore should give a very good idea if these guys can cut it. We should go 8-2, 7-3 at the worst of these games with each starter taking the ball twice.

 

Our current big three then face Boston and New York.

[Guest JimH]

The bottom line is he needs to do better. He needs to improve on his location which I suspect starts with his mental approach.

 

It looks to me like he's trying to be too fine and I think the stigma he gained last year from giving up all those HR's has messed with his head. Cooper has a challenge with Vazquez and I expect Guillen will get involved too.

 

He needs to be better, and it needs to start right now. To me he has been disappointing, he can do a lot better. This team is gunning for a championship, time for Vazquez to step up. This weekend against the Cubs will be a big test for him.

[Hangar18]

Javy was ONE pitch away from keeping this game at 2-1. One freaking hanger. So maddening.

 

 

ONE? How about TWO pitches. His best pitch appears to have been his Slider, and he got burned with 2poorly placed curveballs and 2 more ill-advised fastballs. The SOX did a good job trying to come back,

but Vazquez has to keep his head in the game for every pitch, every inning that hes out there. He pitched good enough to Win the Game, but the bad pitches count too. He deserved the loss.

[bmags]

Did everyone here think we were getting a #1 starter for El Duque??

 

 

Eh..El Duque was a minor part of the deal. Chris Young was the centerpiece of this, and yes I'd expect we get more value out of Vazquez considering what we gave up.

 

Considering the run support Vazquez has gotten, he should have an even higher win total. I believe if Brandon McCarthy spent the entire season in Vazquez's spot, he'd have more wins and better numbers. I also think Vizcaino would be posting better numbers out of the pen than McCarthy, since McCarthy clearly is still adjusting to bp duty. And, we'd still have a valuable trading piece and insurance for Anderson in Chris Young, who's having a great season at Arizona's AAA club.

 

Right now, this trade is a loss for the White Sox that will likely become more lopsided with time.

 

Sure, there is a chance that Cooper can fix the breakdowns that Vazquez seems to experience. But, at this point, my money is on Vazquez continuing to be the same pitcher he's been the last 3 years.

[Wedge]

Eh..El Duque was a minor part of the deal. Chris Young was the centerpiece of this, and yes I'd expect we get more value out of Vazquez considering what we gave up.

 

Considering the run support Vazquez has gotten, he should have an even higher win total. I believe if Brandon McCarthy spent the entire season in Vazquez's spot, he'd have more wins and better numbers. I also think Vizcaino would be posting better numbers out of the pen than McCarthy, since McCarthy clearly is still adjusting to bp duty. And, we'd still have a valuable trading piece and insurance for Anderson in Chris Young, who's having a great season at Arizona's AAA club.

 

Right now, this trade is a loss for the White Sox that will likely become more lopsided with time.

 

Sure, there is a chance that Cooper can fix the breakdowns that Vazquez seems to experience. But, at this point, my money is on Vazquez continuing to be the same pitcher he's been the last 3 years.

 

damn your realism!

[WCSox]

I believe if Brandon McCarthy spent the entire season in Vazquez's spot, he'd have more wins and better numbers.

 

Based on what? His relative lack of experience and mediocre numbers out of the 'pen? :rolly

[Kalapse]

Based on what? His relative lack of experience and mediocre numbers out of the 'pen? :rolly

His dominance in the starting role last season and his above average pitching ability.

[Steve9347]

Javy was ONE pitch away from keeping this game at 2-1. One freaking hanger. So maddening.

 

it is funny. an example of his mental-midgetness.

 

he gives up the two run bomb, and john miller (not to suck his dick or anything) basically called that berkman would hit a homerun after burke? was walked...

 

javy, all-world talent, but he s***s himself too much.

[Damen]

His dominance in the starting role last season and his above average pitching ability.

 

 

Exactly. Until I see Vazquez have a run like this one, I'm going to believe McCarthy is the better starting pitcher. And I don't think you can hold his bullpen numbers completely against him. There is going to be an adjustment period in knowing you need to be available to pitch every day versus every fifth day.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Damen

[Steve9347]

Exactly. Until I see Vazquez have a run like this one, I'm going to believe McCarthy is the better starting pitcher. And I don't think you can hold his bullpen numbers completely against him. There is going to be an adjustment period in knowing you need to be available to pitch every day versus every fifth day.

 

post of the week, just for putting that link in there.

[WCSox]

His dominance in the starting role last season and his above average pitching ability.

 

Kind of like Kip Wells' "dominance" in a limited number of starts in 1999?

 

And speaking of "above-average pitching ability", Vazquez has pretty damn good stuff as well.

 

I fully expect that B-Mac will be a very good starter one of these days, but I find it odd that some people point to a few good starts last season as "evidence" that he would've done better than Vazquez had he been given his spot this season.

[ZoomSlowik]

Eh..El Duque was a minor part of the deal. Chris Young was the centerpiece of this, and yes I'd expect we get more value out of Vazquez considering what we gave up.

 

Considering the run support Vazquez has gotten, he should have an even higher win total. I believe if Brandon McCarthy spent the entire season in Vazquez's spot, he'd have more wins and better numbers. I also think Vizcaino would be posting better numbers out of the pen than McCarthy, since McCarthy clearly is still adjusting to bp duty. And, we'd still have a valuable trading piece and insurance for Anderson in Chris Young, who's having a great season at Arizona's AAA club.

 

Right now, this trade is a loss for the White Sox that will likely become more lopsided with time.

 

Sure, there is a chance that Cooper can fix the breakdowns that Vazquez seems to experience. But, at this point, my money is on Vazquez continuing to be the same pitcher he's been the last 3 years.

 

You make some valid points, but I don't see how you can chalk this up as a loss thus far. Vizcaino has been okay thus far, but El Duque got traded already, Young is still in AAA and is probably at least two years away from being a major factor, and the money is about a push. I'll take the starter with stuff over a non-elite reliever and a prospect any time. As I said before, he was solid early in the year and only recently started struggling.

 

Would McCarthy have been better than Vazquez thus far? I personally don't think so. Before this last start, Vazquez had been decent. He really only had one gift win, a lot of his run support came in his better starts. Every other win was a quality start. McCarthy would have been a much bigger wildcard. He pitched well after his second call-up last year, but so did Felix Hernandez, and he's getting shelled this year. My vote is he would have struggled going through the lineup more than once, especially when he leaves as many pitches up in the zone as he does. He's not exactly dominating either, and I'd tend to lean toward the veteran in that case. Having Vazquez on the roster also gives us the flexibility to deal Garcia or Garland, who have struggled more consistently this year and don't have the raw stuff that Vazquez does.

 

Chris Young isn't exactly a sure thing, so I wouldn't panick about that yet. He's got talent, but he's not exactly a contact hitter. He hasn't cracked .280 since A ball. Considering that Anderson hit .295 in AAA last year, that's probably not a good sign. The comparison I hear the most about him is Mike Cameron, who is a solid but not stellar player. I'm not going to worry about him being a Carlos Beltran like star until he does it.

 

Exactly. Until I see Vazquez have a run like this one, I'm going to believe McCarthy is the better starting pitcher. And I don't think you can hold his bullpen numbers completely against him. There is going to be an adjustment period in knowing you need to be available to pitch every day versus every fifth day.

 

Wow, 5 starts. That's plenty of evidence, he's going to win a Cy Young award. How about that his numbers from his previous callup? Javier has actually done it in the long run on the major league level. Take a look at his numbers with Montreal, and the first half for the Yankees. Or his performance early in the year for us for that matter.

Edited June 26, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Kalapse]

Kind of like Kip Wells' "dominance" in a limited number of starts in 1999?

 

And speaking of "above-average pitching ability", Vazquez has pretty damn good stuff as well.

 

I fully expect that B-Mac will be a very good starter one of these days, but I find it odd that some people point to a few good starts last season as "evidence" that he would've done better than Vazquez had he been given his spot this season.

Considering what I've seen from McCarthy since he came up last year especially in September when he and Contreras carried this team, there's no doubt in my mind he could have started the year in the rotation and put up an ERA around 5 as Vazquez has done thus far.

[Damen]

Kind of like Kip Wells' "dominance" in a limited number of starts in 1999?

 

And speaking of "above-average pitching ability", Vazquez has pretty damn good stuff as well.

 

I fully expect that B-Mac will be a very good starter one of these days, but I find it odd that some people point to a few good starts last season as "evidence" that he would've done better than Vazquez had he been given his spot this season.

 

Well, it's obviously just speculation. But I personally have a hard time believing McCarthy would not have been able to improve upon the numbers Vazquez has given us so far this year. And while Young may just be a prospect, considering our (lack of) depth in the outfield this year, it would be nice to have something like that around for insurance.

[WCSox]

Considering what I've seen from McCarthy since he came up last year especially in September when he and Contreras carried this team, there's no doubt in my mind he could have started the year in the rotation and put up an ERA around 5 as Vazquez has done thus far.

 

I'm sure that he could initially. But what about August and September? Young arms that aren't conditioned for 200+ innings tend to wear down in that period. Maybe B-Mac would've done as well as you think, but I'd rather Vazquez be out there. He's the better bet over the long run.

 

It's laughable how one really bad start from Javy on national TV has turned into a "McCarthy would've been better" thread. Vazquez threw a few gems earlier this season and was pitching relatively well up until a few weeks ago, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore. :rolly

[Kalapse]

I'm sure that he could initially. But what about August and September? Young arms that aren't conditioned for 200+ innings tend to wear down in that period. Maybe B-Mac would've done as well as you think, but I'd rather Vazquez be out there. He's the better bet over the long run.

 

It's laughable how one really bad start from Javy on national TV has turned into a "McCarthy would've been better" thread. Vazquez threw a few gems earlier this season and was pitching relatively well up until a few weeks ago, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore. :rolly

I'm just saying McCarthy would have equal or better numbers than Vazquez right now, I'm certainly not saying I'd rather not have Javy.

[Damen]

I'm sure that he could initially. But what about August and September? Young arms that aren't conditioned for 200+ innings tend to wear down in that period. Maybe B-Mac would've done as well as you think, but I'd rather Vazquez be out there. He's the better bet over the long run.

 

It's laughable how one really bad start from Javy on national TV has turned into a "McCarthy would've been better" thread. Vazquez threw a few gems earlier this season and was pitching relatively well up until a few weeks ago, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore. :rolly

 

In fairness to myself, I really haven't liked this trade since it was made. And at this point, it's laughable to say "one bad start" when talking about Vazquez. But since what's done is done and there's no changing it, I hope you're right and Vazquez turns it around in the second half and proves he can do more in the AL than post ERA's around 5.00. As of now, I remain unconvinced.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm sure that he could initially. But what about August and September? Young arms that aren't conditioned for 200+ innings tend to wear down in that period. Maybe B-Mac would've done as well as you think, but I'd rather Vazquez be out there. He's the better bet over the long run.

 

It's laughable how one really bad start from Javy on national TV has turned into a "McCarthy would've been better" thread. Vazquez threw a few gems earlier this season and was pitching relatively well up until a few weeks ago, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore. :rolly

 

Not even until a few weeks ago, until LAST NIGHT. His ERA before that was 4.43. I don't think B-Mac would have been better than that total.

 

I don't understand why Vazquez is suddenly coming under fire. His numbers weren't a problem until he laid an egg last night. Freddy and Jon have had ERA's over 5 for most of the year, and the latter is still well over that total, yet somehow Javy is the one that has to go. The others have been just as inconsistent, in fact probably moreso.

[Soxbadger]

I guess I am in the minority, I like Vazquez. I like a player who has a desire to win and plays with passion. This is only Javy's second time playing with a winning team, for the good part of career he has played on bad teams. When he starts to realize that the Sox will win games for him as long as he keeps it close, he will start being less hard on himself.

 

Right now Vazquez is still new to the Sox, he is going to have some ups and downs, but when all the dust settles Vazquez is a good pitcher, and will eventually harnass his emotions.

 

I hear a lot about Chris Young, how many games has he played in the MLB?

[LVSoxFan]

For whatever it's worth I DESPISED Contreras last year 1st half and prayed that we'd dump him at the trade deadline.

 

Oops.

 

So I'm hesitant to pile on Javy just yet and stick my foot in my mouth again.

 

That said, he does have a maddening tendency to just fall apart and when he gave up the homer last night he just seem to come unglued. I've also seen him throw little tantrums in the dugout if he didn't like the way an inning went.

 

Contrast that with Contreras' cool-as-a-cucumber demeanor on the mound; maybe Javy could learn from him.

 

I only make the connection because the knock on Jose last year first half was that he had great stuff (Ozzie said that often), but he wasn't pitching great. I think we all agree that Javy has some pretty nasty stuff, so...

[WCSox]

I'm just saying McCarthy would have equal or better numbers than Vazquez right now, I'm certainly not saying I'd rather not have Javy.

 

My mistake. In that case, I agree with you.

 

I hope you're right and Vazquez turns it around in the second half and proves he can do more in the AL than post ERA's around 5.00. As of now, I remain unconvinced.

 

If I'm not right and Javy is still pitching like crap in August and September, I'll be the first to call for a trade.

 

Not even until a few weeks ago, until LAST NIGHT. His ERA before that was 4.43. I don't think B-Mac would have been better than that total.

 

I don't understand why Vazquez is suddenly coming under fire. His numbers weren't a problem until he laid an egg last night. Freddy and Jon have had ERA's over 5 for most of the year, and the latter is still well over that total, yet somehow Javy is the one that has to go. The others have been just as inconsistent, in fact probably moreso.

 

Last night was the third time in 10 starts that Javy has given up more than 5 ERs. As of a month ago, his ERA was 3.86. He's been maddingly inconsistent and his overall numbers don't really justify his contract or his reputation. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the criticism, and rightfully so.

[ZoomSlowik]

Last night was the third time in 10 starts that Javy has given up more than 5 ERs. As of a month ago, his ERA was 3.86. He's been maddingly inconsistent and his overall numbers don't really justify his contract or his reputation. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the criticism, and rightfully so.

 

Well, I can understand that, but it's more why he's the target and not the others. Freddy and Jon are making about the same amount of money while being just as bad. Freddy just got his ERA DOWN to 4.66 with his last start, and Jon is still up at 5.76. I wouldn't have any real problem with it if he were our only starter that was struggling, or if he had been consistently bad all year.

[Steve9347]

As of a month ago, his ERA was 3.86. He's been maddingly inconsistent and his overall numbers don't really justify his contract or his reputation. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the criticism, and rightfully so.

 

 

interestingly enough his WHIP (a more accurate description of how he has been pitching, is still only 1.31...

 

only .05 worse than Mark Buehrle, .01 worse than Freddy Garcia

 

better than Randy Johnson, Scott Kazmir, Brett Myers, Jon Garland, Joe Blanton, Zach Duke, Jon Lester, Brandon McCarthy himself...

 

oh, and going into yesterday it was better than Buehrle's... similar to Contreras' season last year before he got rolling

Edited June 26, 2006 by Steve9347