Javier Vazquez

[WCSox]

Well, I can understand that, but it's more why he's the target and not the others.

 

Because it happened last night on national TV. You know how Soxtalkers like to take the "what have you done for me lately" stance.

[ZoomSlowik]

interestingly enough his WHIP (a more accurate description of how he has been pitching, is still only 1.31...

 

only .05 worse than Mark Buehrle, .01 worse than Freddy Garcia

 

better than Randy Johnson, Scott Kazmir, Brett Myers, Jon Garland, Joe Blanton, Zach Duke, Jon Lester, Brandon McCarthy himself...

 

oh, and going into yesterday it was better than Buehrle's... similar to Contreras' season last year before he got rolling

 

What's even more interesting is that his BAA has sky-rocketed during this stretch. Usually it's the walk-rate that causes a high WHIP (well, outside of Buehrle), but his was actually higher in May. His BAA was .211 in April, .243 in May, and .338 in June.

 

My personal theory is that it seems like he's trying to nibble more for some reason, so he's behind in the count more, racks up higher pitch counts, and thus gets hit more when he has to throw strikes. That's very similar to what happened to Jose when he was bad last year.

Edited June 26, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Dick Allen]

I agree that Vazquez has the ability to be just as dominating or at least pretty close as Contreras. There are many differences though. Contreras changed his style. He started coming from different angles. Going back to his old way of pitching also probably boosted his confidence, as even when he was the original guy the Sox acquired, he occassionally threw a gem. Vazquez is an 8 year veteran with a .500 record. Despite his HOF ability, he has had a mediocre career. He hasn't been too blessed as far as the quality of teams he's played on, but the best team he played on, he had one of the highest ERAs of his career. Before the Sox acquired him Ozzie talked to him, and Vazquez had a reluctance to return to the AL. To me that's a huge red flag. Hopefully his second half won't resemble the second half he had with the Yankees, he was so bad they thought he was hurt. I'm not giving up on him as a fan, but the "greatest rotation ever" does seem to have its weak points. The offense has been incredible, and you can't expect it to continue at the current pace. The pitching staff as a whole needs to get in gear. If they pitch the second half like Detroit is pitching in the first half, making the playoffs will just be a formality.

[southsideirish71]

Javier Vazquez was lit up for nine runs in six innings by the Astros on Sunday night.

Vazquez simply makes too many stupid mistakes to be a top pitcher, and it doesn't look like it's ever going to change. A bad curveball -- his fourth pitch anyway -- turned into a two-run double in the first inning tonight, and in the fourth, he left an 0-2 fastball over the plate to Mike Lamb for a two-run homer. The next batter walked on four pitches, and Lance Berkman followed with another two-run homer. Vazquez's WHIP and strikeout rate will help make him an asset in fantasy leagues, but that's the nicest thing we can write about him right now. Jun. 26 - 12:54 am et

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree that Vazquez has the ability to be just as dominating or at least pretty close as Contreras. There are many differences though. Contreras changed his style. He started coming from different angles. Going back to his old way of pitching also probably boosted his confidence, as even when he was the original guy the Sox acquired, he occassionally threw a gem. Vazquez is an 8 year veteran with a .500 record. Despite his HOF ability, he has had a mediocre career. He hasn't been too blessed as far as the quality of teams he's played on, but the best team he played on, he had one of the highest ERAs of his career. Before the Sox acquired him Ozzie talked to him, and Vazquez had a reluctance to return to the AL. To me that's a huge red flag. Hopefully his second half won't resemble the second half he had with the Yankees, he was so bad they thought he was hurt. I'm not giving up on him as a fan, but the "greatest rotation ever" does seem to have its weak points. The offense has been incredible, and you can't expect it to continue at the current pace. The pitching staff as a whole needs to get in gear. If they pitch the second half like Detroit is pitching in the first half, making the playoffs will just be a formality.

 

The angles was a factor, but the bigger factor was that he started throwing strikes a lot more. He used to go through periods where he'd lose confidence in his fastball and just start chucking up forkball after forkball that he couldn't throw for strikes. His walk rate dropped significantly when he started pitching better. I think Javier is pretty similar. He isn't walking people as much, but he's getting behind in the count a lot, which makes life pretty difficult for him.

[Steve9347]

What's even more interesting is that his BAA has sky-rocketed during this stretch. Usually it's the walk-rate that causes a high WHIP (well, outside of Buehrle), but his was actually higher in June. His BAA was .211 in April, .243 in May, and .338 in June.

 

My personal theory is that it seems like he's trying to nibble more for some reason, so he's behind in the count more, racks up higher pitch counts, and thus gets hit more when he has to throw strikes. That's very similar to what happened to Jose when he was bad last year.

 

yes, but a lot of his hits he's given up have been on 0-2, 1-2...

 

though he did work up in the count a few more times than usual last night. However, that slider he was sporting was f***ing nasty, regardless of the final outcome of the game. He should have stuck with that more than with the fastball that got slaughtered.

[Milkman delivers]

Maybe he should just let AJ call the game completely. That way we take Javy's lack of pitching knowledge right out of the equation and go completely on his stuff.

[GreatScott82]

Hawk mentions this quite frequently, Freddy pitches just good enough to win. That is why Freddy is soo valauble. His ERA doesn't bother me as long as he continues to pile up wins im happy. Garland seems to be on or off, take your pick. Javier has just been bad lateley. He gets ahead of the hitters and throws meatballs right down the middle. Why do this Javy? You have pitches to work with! He needs to throw his slider more. That seems to be his best pitch. The fact of the matter is, Javy needs to get his ass in gear, he is showing us all why he is the 5th starter.

[ZoomSlowik]

yes, but a lot of his hits he's given up have been on 0-2, 1-2...

 

though he did work up in the count a few more times than usual last night. However, that slider he was sporting was f***ing nasty, regardless of the final outcome of the game. He should have stuck with that more than with the fastball that got slaughtered.

 

The only one I can remember that was definitely ahead in the count was Lamb's homer. I'm pretty sure that the RBI single in the first and Berkman's homer were both on full counts. Stats by count:

 

By Count AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

After 0-1 186 0 38 8 0 2 15 5 5 53 1 0 .204 .245 .280 .524

After 0-2 73 0 10 1 0 0 3 2 1 32 0 0 .137 .171 .151 .322

After 1-0 124 0 39 6 1 3 14 17 2 19 4 1 .315 .400 .452 .852

After 1-1 145 0 35 6 0 2 12 13 5 36 3 1 .241 .325 .324 .649

After 1-2 105 0 18 2 0 2 8 7 3 39 3 0 .171 .243 .248 .491

After 2-0 32 0 12 3 1 1 6 7 0 4 0 0 .375 .475 .625 1.100

After 2-1 60 0 20 5 0 0 6 9 2 12 0 0 .333 .437 .417 .853

After 2-2 71 0 16 3 0 0 6 10 3 25 0 0 .225 .345 .268 .613

After (3-0) 5 0 2 1 1 0 1 6 0 0 0 0 .400 .727 1.000 1.727

After (3-1) 16 0 3 1 1 0 1 9 0 2 0 0 .188 .480 .375 .855

After 3-2 28 0 4 0 0 0 1 15 0 11 0 0 .143 .442 .143 .585

Count 0-0 40 45 14 2 0 2 11 0 2 0 0 0 .350 .381 .550 .931

Count 0-1 35 0 11 2 0 1 3 0 1 0 0 0 .314 .333 .457 .790

Count 0-2 36 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 21 0 0 .083 .083 .083 .167

Count 1-0 25 0 9 2 0 1 5 0 0 0 2 0 .360 .346 .560 .906

Count 1-1 36 0 12 2 0 0 3 0 1 0 0 1 .333 .351 .389 .740

Count 1-2 61 0 10 1 0 2 4 0 1 24 4 0 .164 .177 .279 .456

Count 2-0 8 0 2 0 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 .250 .222 .625 .847

Count 2-1 22 0 11 3 0 0 4 0 1 0 0 0 .500 .522 .636 1.158

Count 2-2 49 0 12 3 0 0 5 0 3 16 -1 0 .245 .288 .306 .595

3-0 Count 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 .000 1.000 .000 1.000

3-1 Count 9 0 2 1 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 .222 .462 .333 .795

Count 3-2 29 0 5 0 1 0 2 15 0 11 0 0 .172 .455 .241 .696

 

According to that, he gets in a lot of trouble when he gets behind in the count. He has a low average but high OBP in a full count. He has very low averages when he's up 0-2 or 1-2. Looks to me like they need to focus on him pounding the zone a little more.

Edited June 26, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[South Side Fireworks Man]

A real RF probably catches that triple.

 

Are you saying Dye is not a real RF? Because he wouldn't have gotten to that ball either.

[southsideirish71]

Are you saying Dye is not a real RF? Because he wouldn't have gotten to that ball either.

 

 

The only way anyone gets to that ball is if they are shading him towards the line. He cued that ball, and it couldnt of been thrown better in that spot. The only comment I will make, is Dye would of played that ball in front of him, and limited to a double. Gload who is a poor, OF made things worse by throwing himself on the ground trying to make sportscenter, and then coming up and just standing there. He didnt know where the ball was, and did seem to care to look.

 

Having a guy at 2nd is a big difference than having a guy at 3rd.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Overall, there isn't a whit of difference between Freddy Garcia's and Javier Vazquez's numbers this year. Freddie, in fact, is the one giving up the long ball more frequently -- 17 v. 9 for JV.

 

I doubt if Freddy would stand around and watch his catcher get drilled twice and not even pitch inside.

 

Freddy can be frustrating too, but he has shown that he can pitch his way out of trouble even when he doesn't have his good stuff.

 

I would trade Vazquez for Vizcaino and Chris Young right now. McCarthy could go to the rotation and pitch at least as well as Vazquez if not better, Vizcaino would pitch as well as McCarthy out of the pen, and we'd have a good defensive back-up CF.

[Maverick0984]

interestingly enough his WHIP (a more accurate description of how he has been pitching, is still only 1.31...

 

only .05 worse than Mark Buehrle, .01 worse than Freddy Garcia

 

better than Randy Johnson, Scott Kazmir, Brett Myers, Jon Garland, Joe Blanton, Zach Duke, Jon Lester, Brandon McCarthy himself...

 

oh, and going into yesterday it was better than Buehrle\'s... similar to Contreras\' season last year before he got rolling

 

i love your sigs

[CanOfCorn]

The only way anyone gets to that ball is if they are shading him towards the line. He cued that ball, and it couldnt of been thrown better in that spot. The only comment I will make, is Dye would of played that ball in front of him, and limited to a double. Gload who is a poor, OF made things worse by throwing himself on the ground trying to make sportscenter, and then coming up and just standing there. He didnt know where the ball was, and did seem to care to look.

 

Having a guy at 2nd is a big difference than having a guy at 3rd.

 

I honestly believe that Gload thought that ball was foul. If he believed it were fair, I don't think he woulda gone all out for it like he did. I don't know if that's true, but when he stood up, he looked like he was trying to get the out on a foul...JMHO.

[ZoomSlowik]

I doubt if Freddy would stand around and watch his catcher get drilled twice and not even pitch inside.

 

Freddy can be frustrating too, but he has shown that he can pitch his way out of trouble even when he doesn't have his good stuff.

 

I would trade Vazquez for Vizcaino and Chris Young right now. McCarthy could go to the rotation and pitch at least as well as Vazquez if not better, Vizcaino would pitch as well as McCarthy out of the pen, and we'd have a good defensive back-up CF.

 

Freddy isn't exactly an intimidator either, not that it really matters in this discussion...

 

I really don't think that B-Mac could consistently produce, and apparently neither did Kenny since he made the trade. If he goes through the lineup more than once leaving pitches up like he has been most of this year, he's going to get nailed, most likely more than he has in bullpen. He's never produced in the long term, so he's no more certain to pitch well.

 

Kenny has wanted Vazquez for a while, and he's going to give him at least a year to straighten things out, probably two. He's not going to make a knee-jerk reaction because someone gets off to a slow start. If he did that, everyone but Buerhle and Thome would be elsewhere already. Freddy is a lot more likely to go because of his contract situation, which is fine with me because his stuff seems to have slipped. I've got a lot less faith in him performing like a #2 or #3 starter again. Neither of those guys are even the biggest problem on the staff right now, since Garland has pitched like crap most of the year.

 

There's also no way that Young would be on the major league roster. He's simply not ready yet. He wouldn't be on the bench either because he needs at bats to continue his development.

Edited June 27, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I really don't think that B-Mac could consistently produce, and apparently neither did Kenny since he made the trade.

 

There's also no way that Young would be on the major league roster. He's simply not ready yet. He wouldn't be on the bench either because he needs at bats to continue his development.

 

KW probably figured McCarthy couldn't be counted on to pitch 200+ innings yet. But now that we're almost at the halfway point, he should be fresh for the second half. I wouldn't expect him to be lights out, but I'm pretty sure he could maintain an ERA at 5.00 like Vazquez, and possibly lower.

 

I get the sense that Javy has a bad attitude and I don't think he fits in well here. While I always liked Contreras, even when he was struggling, I can't warm up to Vazquez. I don't think he's a "winner". I'm just speculating, but I would bet A.J. doesn't think too highly of him right now.

 

As for Chris Young, whether he was on the 25 man roster or in AAA, at least we would have a solid defensive CF in the organization to back up Anderson. If BA were to go down, we'd be in bad shape. We need another competent CFer.

 

Edit: Another point is when KW made that trade both Contreras and Garland were unsigned and were indicating that they were going to be tough to re-sign.

Edited June 27, 2006 by South Side Fireworks Man

[ZoomSlowik]

KW probably figured McCarthy couldn't be counted on to pitch 200+ innings yet. But now that we're almost at the halfway point, he should be fresh for the second half. I wouldn't expect him to be lights out, but I'm pretty sure he could maintain an ERA at 5.00 like Vazquez, and possibly lower.

 

I get the sense that Javy has a bad attitude and I don't think he fits in well here. While I always liked Contreras, even when he was struggling, I can't warm up to Vazquez. I don't think he's a "winner". I'm just speculating, but I would bet A.J. doesn't think too highly of him right now.

 

As for Chris Young, whether he was on the 25 man roster or in AAA, at least we would have a solid defensive CF in the organization to back up Anderson. If BA were to go down, we'd be in bad shape. We need another competent CFer.

 

Edit: Another point is when KW made that trade both Contreras and Garland were unsigned and were indicating that they were going to be tough to re-sign.

 

It's highly unlikely that B-Mac starts in the second half now that he's been in the bullpen all year. It's not that easy to suddenly start going longer outings mid-season.

 

Vazquez is also going to post an ERA lower than 5 too, since his ERA hasn't even been that high for 24 hours yet. You're taking a guy's numbers when they're at their lowest point and assuming that he's going to keep pitching like that. Anyways, Garland hasn't been able to keep his ERA under 5.50, and you're not complaining about him.

 

I don't put a whole lot of stock in your "sense", that seems pretty baseless. I can't see why you'd like Contreras but not Vazquez, they're virtually the same. Contreras was just as awful and mentally off when we got him, possibly even more so.

 

I don't really see how the signability affects anything. He still had all year to work things out, and neither of the guys were dealt or bumped out of the rotation because of the deal. Plus he was already in negotiations with both of them, so if that were really a factor he would have waited until they played out before doing anything. Garland was signed in late December, so he still would have had a lot of time before the season, and he could still do the deal at the deadline if he really wanted to.

Edited June 27, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Dick Allen]

Are you saying Dye is not a real RF? Because he wouldn't have gotten to that ball either.

Yes he would have. Gload came close to catching it with a horrible jump, and the fact that his glove was on his right hand hurt his chances as well. Dye would have had it without a dive.

[Frankensteiner]

Yes he would have. Gload came close to catching it with a horrible jump, and the fact that his glove was on his right hand hurt his chances as well. Dye would have had it without a dive.

 

Jermaine Dye looks like he runs in cement half the time. No way he gets to that ball on anything less than a bounce.

[Wedge]

It's highly unlikely that B-Mac starts in the second half now that he's been in the bullpen all year. It's not that easy to suddenly start going longer outings mid-season.

 

Vazquez is also going to post an ERA lower than 5 too, since his ERA hasn't even been that high for 24 hours yet. You're taking a guy's numbers when they're at their lowest point and assuming that he's going to keep pitching like that. Anyways, Garland hasn't been able to keep his ERA under 5.50, and you're not complaining about him.

 

Vazquez, Garland, Garcia, they've all pitched like s***. The only difference is that Vazquez had a decent start to the season, so his sucktitude is a more recent phenomenon.

 

I think of our pitchers, Vazquez is probably the most frustrating because anybody who watches baseball can tell you he's got the arm, but the second things go wrong he falls apart. As has been mentioned, it's like Contreras prior to the ASB last year and Garland forever, although Vazquez definitely has a better arm that Garland.

 

I know we traded El Duque because he wanted to start, but I guess I question why we traded for another starter if we were sure McCarthy would come through as a starter. That said, I guess it's always possible that Vazquez turns it around Contreras style, but I just don't see it. At least Contreras had done it before in Cuba. Sure Vazquez had 3 nice seasons in Montreal, but it certainly isn't the body of work Contreras had back in Cuba.

 

On the plus side, Vazquez should eat up 200 innings, which isn't a bad thing.

[Dick Allen]

Jermaine Dye looks like he runs in cement half the time. No way he gets to that ball on anything less than a bounce.

Yeah, Gload has more range than Dye.

[Frankensteiner]

If we look at his 2005, Vazquez is pretty much on track for a repeat performance of last season: couple of good months, couple of bad months, pretty average overall.

 

2005

April - 6.11

May - 2.15

June - 6.75

July - 3.71

August - 7.09

September - 2.93

October - 1.13 (1 start)

 

2006

April - 3.67

May - 3.99

June - 7.50

 

It's pretty good for a 5th starter, although he's not paid like one, nor do we really have reliable 3rd and 4th starters at this point.

 

I hope at least one of Garland/Garcia/Vaz pitches up to the expectations because, although we currently have a good offense, there's 4 players (Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJP) performing above their career norms. I'm worried this trend won't continue throughout the year.

 

Yeah, Gload has more range than Dye.

 

Well, Gload is faster. Have you seen Dye play RF this year?

[Dick Allen]

If we look at his 2005, Vazquez is pretty much on track for a repeat performance of last season: couple of good months, couple of bad months, pretty average overall.

 

2005

April - 6.11

May - 2.15

June - 6.75

July - 3.71

August - 7.09

September - 2.93

October - 1.13 (1 start)

 

2006

April - 3.67

May - 3.99

June - 7.50

 

It's pretty good for a 5th starter, although he's not paid like one, nor do we really have reliable 3rd and 4th starters at this point.

 

I hope at least one of Garland/Garcia/Vaz pitches up to the expectations because, although we currently have a good offense, there's 4 players (Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJP) performing above their career norms. I'm worried this trend won't continue throughout the year.

The offense is due to slow down, no question about it. The starters are going to have to pick it up.

 

If we look at his 2005, Vazquez is pretty much on track for a repeat performance of last season: couple of good months, couple of bad months, pretty average overall.

 

2005

April - 6.11

May - 2.15

June - 6.75

July - 3.71

August - 7.09

September - 2.93

October - 1.13 (1 start)

 

2006

April - 3.67

May - 3.99

June - 7.50

 

It's pretty good for a 5th starter, although he's not paid like one, nor do we really have reliable 3rd and 4th starters at this point.

 

I hope at least one of Garland/Garcia/Vaz pitches up to the expectations because, although we currently have a good offense, there's 4 players (Konerko, Dye, Crede, AJP) performing above their career norms. I'm worried this trend won't continue throughout the year.

He runs faster, but doesn't get as decent of a read on a ball as Dye. Besides if Gload was right handed he may have caught the ball himself, and if Dye does get it on a bounce as someone suggested, there is a possibility that the ball was foul. Dye did make an unbelievable play earlier in the week on a ball over his head.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Dick Allen

[ZoomSlowik]

Vazquez, Garland, Garcia, they've all pitched like s***. The only difference is that Vazquez had a decent start to the season, so his sucktitude is a more recent phenomenon.

 

I think of our pitchers, Vazquez is probably the most frustrating because anybody who watches baseball can tell you he's got the arm, but the second things go wrong he falls apart. As has been mentioned, it's like Contreras prior to the ASB last year and Garland forever, although Vazquez definitely has a better arm that Garland.

 

I know we traded El Duque because he wanted to start, but I guess I question why we traded for another starter if we were sure McCarthy would come through as a starter. That said, I guess it's always possible that Vazquez turns it around Contreras style, but I just don't see it. At least Contreras had done it before in Cuba. Sure Vazquez had 3 nice seasons in Montreal, but it certainly isn't the body of work Contreras had back in Cuba.

 

On the plus side, Vazquez should eat up 200 innings, which isn't a bad thing.

 

I think it can be done. I don't think he'll make as big a change as Contreras, but he's also not as far off from being good. He's come up with some very good starts, he just needs to figure out how to not get shelled in his bad outings again. He had four really bad starts that are really dragging down his numbers. He's got the stuff and he's not walking guys, so it just looks like needs to stop nibbling so much early in the count and work on his pitch selection.

 

I'd rather have guys that have problems with their mental approach than guys that just don't have the stuff. Freddy's stuff just isn't there very often anymore, and Jon has stuff and mental issues.

[CWSGuy406]

Yes he would have. Gload came close to catching it with a horrible jump, and the fact that his glove was on his right hand hurt his chances as well. Dye would have had it without a dive.

 

Ehh -- I was at the game, watched the play the whole way, and I didn't see Gload break back on the ball. Moreso, I certainly don't think Dye gets to that ball. I like Jermaine, but he's not a very good defensive RFer; he won't hurt you out there, but he's not going to be saving runs out there either. I really don't see how you can blame Gload for that play. I haven't seen the replay recently, but he got to the ball on the dive -- it hit off his mit. Just an unfortunate scenario -- lucky that the ball fell two inches inside the line.