Railroad Killer to die tomorrow

[minors]

This guy caused terror and panic all around the country. Now it is his time to die and meet Tookie and the rest of the murdering thugs.

 

 

Railroad killer set to die

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I'll bite on the death penalty stuff.

 

I know I'm likely to be flamed and the difference is in philosophy.

 

For all the people proclaiming that religion is being taken out of schools and the public arena, it is amazing how so many of the so-called "conservatives" (I don't even want to slander actual conservatives by putting them in with the cult of Bush personality since his ilk is anything but conservative) fail to mention capital punishment in their case.

 

Its "Thou shalt not kill" It isn't "Thou shalt not kill, except when..." or "Amend Section A".

 

If you're going to say that life is sacred and it is wrong for an individual to kill -- then how can it be right for the state?

 

And these stats are not specific to the case, but I figured they'd work in a better over-arching discussion of capital punishment (remembering that the US is the one Western industrialized nation to still continue the practice) Over 80% of people executed since 1976 were convicted of killing white victims, although people of color make up more than half of all homicide victims in the US. A defendant who can afford his or her own attorney is much less likely to be sentenced to die. 95% of all people sentenced to death in the US could not afford their own attorney.

 

Also: Murder Victims' Families for Human Rights

 

When you add in that there is no deterrance effect from capital punishment, that the trials cost so much more than life without parole, the numerous times that prosecutors have been "thrown under the bus" and caught for hiding exculpatory evidence and that there have been innocent people both executed and released from death row -- it adds a few bumps to believing that the social and economic costs of the death penalty are worth paying for.

[southsideirish71]

I'll bite on the death penalty stuff.

 

I know I'm likely to be flamed and the difference is in philosophy.

 

For all the people proclaiming that religion is being taken out of schools and the public arena, it is amazing how so many of the so-called "conservatives" (I don't even want to slander actual conservatives by putting them in with the cult of Bush personality since his ilk is anything but conservative) fail to mention capital punishment in their case.

 

Its "Thou shalt not kill" It isn't "Thou shalt not kill, except when..." or "Amend Section A".

 

If you're going to say that life is sacred and it is wrong for an individual to kill -- then how can it be right for the state?

 

And these stats are not specific to the case, but I figured they'd work in a better over-arching discussion of capital punishment (remembering that the US is the one Western industrialized nation to still continue the practice) Over 80% of people executed since 1976 were convicted of killing white victims, although people of color make up more than half of all homicide victims in the US. A defendant who can afford his or her own attorney is much less likely to be sentenced to die. 95% of all people sentenced to death in the US could not afford their own attorney.

 

Also: Murder Victims' Families for Human Rights

 

When you add in that there is no deterrance effect from capital punishment, that the trials cost so much more than life without parole, the numerous times that prosecutors have been "thrown under the bus" and caught for hiding exculpatory evidence and that there have been innocent people both executed and released from death row -- it adds a few bumps to believing that the social and economic costs of the death penalty are worth paying for.

 

I love the irony of this debate. Thou shalt not kill used also. Thats great.

 

So let me get this straight, Its okay to kill an innocent baby because up until it comes out the vaginal canal, gets slapped, and cries liberals think its a collection of cells. Maybe the baby could get some representation by the ACLU before it gets its death sentence. Yet the murdering thug gets a pass, because they have come to some sort of agreement that stabbing people in the neck is wrong. Maybe they write a book, Jimmy doesnt stab strangers anymore. I love it.

 

You want to change my view on the death penalty. I am willing to give a little, to gain a little. Outlaw abortion, unless the health of the mother is at risk or in cases of rape, and then I will buy the eliminate the dealth penalty argument. Otherwise let the murderer fry.

Edited June 26, 2006 by southsideirish71

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I love the irony of this debate.

 

Its okay to kill an innocent baby because up until it comes out the vaginal canal, gets slapped, and cries liberals think its a collection of cells. Maybe the baby could get some representation by the ACLU before it gets its death sentence. Yet the murdering thug gets a pass, because they have come to some sort of agreement that stabbing people in the neck is wrong. I love it.

 

You want to change my view on the death penalty. I am willing to give a little, to gain a little. Outlaw abortion, unless the health of the mother is at risk or in cases of rape, and then I will buy the eliminate the dealth penalty argument. Otherwise let the murderer fry.

Nice bichromatic political straw man.

 

I actually have serious moral reservations about abortion and believe that legitimate discussion of sexual education and easy access to birth control methods would do wonders to cutting the rate of abortion. But then some fundamentalists would get offended that *gasp* sex was being discussed as something that wasn't dank, dirty and as Reagan put it "tinged with evil". Add in adequate funding of social programs, job assistance programs, education funding in areas that desperately need it and you're going to have a vastly cut down rate of abortion. I think its something that should be safe, legal and rare. Outlawing abortion will do nothing because rich women (they did it from late 1800's until it was legal) will go to places and pay to get illegal abortions. Poorer women will get unsafe backalley coathanger specials.

 

But back to the topic at hand, you didn't really refute my statements about capital punishment. Just some anti-ACLU talking points and hammered away on abortion.

[minors]

I love the irony of this debate. Thou shalt not kill used also. Thats great.

 

So let me get this straight, Its okay to kill an innocent baby because up until it comes out the vaginal canal, gets slapped, and cries liberals think its a collection of cells. Maybe the baby could get some representation by the ACLU before it gets its death sentence. Yet the murdering thug gets a pass, because they have come to some sort of agreement that stabbing people in the neck is wrong. I love it.

 

You want to change my view on the death penalty. I am willing to give a little, to gain a little. Outlaw abortion, unless the health of the mother is at risk or in cases of rape, and then I will buy the eliminate the dealth penalty argument. Otherwise let the murderer fry.

 

I agree 100% I also might be willing to give but if it is still legal in this country to murder an innocent child then I will be in favor of the Death Penalty maybe if abortion was illegal then I would reconsider. Until then the liberals have no leg to stand on

[Steff]

The abortion argument is simply not as black and white as it always seems to be portrayed here... There are more factors than just rape, health of the mother, or birth control for stupid females.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I agree 100% I also might be willing to give but if it is still legal in this country to murder an innocent child then I will be in favor of the Death Penalty maybe if abortion was illegal then I would reconsider. Until then the liberals have no leg to stand on

I'm not getting the whole "liberals" being against capital punishment yet for abortion thing.

 

It's a nice diversion from dealing with the points brought up here and having to defend a point of view in a debate.

 

Plus, there's always the guys and gals like, I don't know, the Pope, Fr. Daniel Berrigan, Sister Helen Prejean and other ardent pro-life activists who are against the proliferation of abortion AND, watch this, capital punishment.

 

Perhaps you've heard that some people hold the idea of the Consistent Life Ethic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_Life_Ethic

 

It isn't just "liberals" who are anti-death penalty. Sorry, but no cheap points in going after carefully set up "pseudo-debate points" so you all can knock them down in this thread.

 

 

 

The abortion argument is simply not as black and white as it always seems to be portrayed here... There are more factors than just rape, health of the mother, or birth control for stupid females.

Steff, you're a fool and a Communist to think otherwise! How dare women have a choice to dictate the happenings in their own uterus. It is uter-U.S. That means the US government has the right to tell a woman what they can and can't do with their reproductive organs! It isn't uter-you!

[minors]

But back to the topic at hand, you didn't really refute my statements about capital punishment. Just some anti-ACLU talking points and hammered away on abortion.

 

I will take a stab at it. There is also a commandment that says Eye for an Eye which I take to mean that if you kill an knowingly innocent person then your life has to forfeited.

 

Secondly yes your life is likely to be spared if you have a lot of money but what generally happens is they are let of scott free which is really wrong. That is why I favor taking the punishment out of the Juries hands the punishment should be written in black and white with no discretion, if you are found guilty of capital murder then you die no discretion.

 

 

Trials cost a lot no doubt but what is forgotten in this argument is the cost to house and feed these thugs for 50-60 years which costs over 2 million in the end they equal out. Yes innocent people are executed but there are many people who served their life in prison is that any better? or giving up 20-30 years of their life in prison is that any better? The leagle system is not perfect but it is pretty damn good

[Steff]

Steff, you're a fool and a Communist to think otherwise! How dare women have a choice to dictate the happenings in their own uterus. It is uter-U.S. That means the US government has the right to tell a woman what they can and can't do with their reproductive organs! It isn't uter-you!

 

 

 

I know, I know. I just wish for one second some of these folks with penis' would stop to think how they would raise a child with no quality of life. It's sad to see such closed minds.

[minors]

I will also add that the DP would be more of a deterrent if we had a stricter form of it and cut the massive appeals process. 2 appeals is all you need or 1 year what ever comes first. I would like to see beheading or firing squads, gas chambers or electric chairs back. I also think there needs to be public executions to let people see what will happen to them if they commit murder. Right now the process is so sissified that no one takes it seriously.

[Rex Kickass]

I will take a stab at it. There is also a commandment that says Eye for an Eye which I take to mean that if you kill an knowingly innocent person then your life has to forfeited.

 

That's Hammurabi's Code, not the Ten Commandments. It was never "Judeo-Christian" law.

[minors]

That's Hammurabi's Code, not the Ten Commandments. It was never "Judeo-Christian" law.

 

I never used the bible as a justification. I just can't not stomach the fact of killers getting lose and killing again it has happened many times, if there dead they can't kill anymore

[southsideirish71]

I know, I know. I just wish for one second some of these folks with penis' would stop to think how they would raise a child with no quality of life. It's sad to see such closed minds.

 

If the child has medical issues, or in the cases of rape/incest, or in the cases of the mothers health. Sure, I am not as closed minded on the subject as a lot of people are.

 

However there are tons of people getting on planes to fly to remote destinations all over the world who cannot have children that would love to adopt a child.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I will take a stab at it. There is also a commandment that says Eye for an Eye which I take to mean that if you kill an knowingly innocent person then your life has to forfeited.

 

Secondly yes your life is likely to be spared if you have a lot of money but what generally happens is they are let of scott free which is really wrong. That is why I favor taking the punishment out of the Juries hands the punishment should be written in black and white with no discretion, if you are found guilty of capital murder then you die no discretion.

Trials cost a lot no doubt but what is forgotten in this argument is the cost to house and feed these thugs for 50-60 years which costs over 2 million in the end they equal out. Yes innocent people are executed but there are many people who served their life in prison is that any better? or giving up 20-30 years of their life in prison is that any better? The leagle system is not perfect but it is pretty damn good

Yeah, about the 'eye for an eye' thing: You should check out Matthew 5 where the J-man sort of out and out repudiates that notion as being acceptable. (Specifically Matthew 5:38)

 

Mandatory minimums handcuff judges and handcuff any mitigating evidence from being useful at a sentencing. (i.e. a man walks into his home and sees his wife having an affair. He bludgeons them both to death.) Clearly there are mitigating factors in cases that can lessen punishments given. If there is a hard-code, everybodys' hands become tied.

 

"The cost of the apparatus and maintenance of the procedures attending the death penalty, including death row and the endless appeals and legal machinery, far outweighs the expense of maintaining in prison the tiny fraction of criminals who would otherwise be slain." (Draper)

 

Habeas corpus reform (i.e. limiting appeals to lower cost) will only allow for more mistakes to be made and innocent people to be executed.

 

As for the spending 20-30 years in jail and later being found innocent would be comparatively better because they wouldn't be in a box six feet under. The legal system is indeed not perfect which is the perfect argument of why the US should follow suit with the other Western industrialized nations and dump the death penalty.

[Rex Kickass]

I never used the bible as a justification. I just can't not stomach the fact of killers getting lose and killing again it has happened many times, if there dead they can't kill anymore

 

You said it was a commandment. It is not. That's all.

[minors]

I know, I know. I just wish for one second some of these folks with penis' would stop to think how they would raise a child with no quality of life. It's sad to see such closed minds.

 

 

I have already said I do not have a problem with abortion if there is rape or incest or Mother or child is in danger or if they can not live a normal healthy life IE (vegetable). But if they kill a child just because they don't have the money or don't have the living environment to me that is murder. And it something they should have though about before hand plus there is several better alternatives.

 

As for the spending 20-30 years in jail and later being found innocent would be comparatively better because they wouldn't be in a box six feet under. The legal system is indeed not perfect which is the perfect argument of why the US should follow suit with the other Western industrialized nations and dump the death penalty.

 

 

But is spending 50 years and the rest of your life in prison any better is dying in prison any better than to be executed? I do not think it is. I do think I would error on the side of caution but in cases like this where there was tons of damaging evidence and many confessions I actually sleep better when they are killed.

Edited June 26, 2006 by minors

[LowerCaseRepublican]

But is spending 50 years and the rest of your life in prison any better is dying in prison any better than to be executed? I do not think it is. I do think I would error on the side of caution but in cases like this where there was tons of damaging evidence and many confessions I actually sleep better when they are killed.

Now we're getting into hypotheticals.

 

But hey, here's something:

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clin...ions/States.htm -- Wrongful convictions that were exonerations by state...It's a problem with the system that this many innocent people are being put away.

 

Erring on the side of caution necessitates habeas corpus being maximized instead of limiting appeals. You can easily see the problems with the system of capital punishment where a group of college kids on a class assignment at Northwestern is one of the last checks against a legal system in exonerating people.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I will take a stab at it. There is also a commandment that says Eye for an Eye which I take to mean that if you kill an knowingly innocent person then your life has to forfeited.

 

Like LCR pointed out, you are talking out of your ass. "Eye for an eye" is Biblically from Exodus (also Leviticus), and non-Biblically reflected in the code of Hammurabi.

 

You are apparently also unaware of what the Nazz had to say about Old Testament retributive justice, according to the Gospel of Matthew:

 

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also . . .

 

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

 

Ah, well, I understand that the soft and fuzzy lovey-dovey Jesus is hard for the Kill 'em All Cult to abide sometimes.

[minors]

Like LCR pointed out, you are talking out of your ass. "Eye for an eye" is Biblically from Exodus (also Leviticus), and non-Biblically reflected in the code of Hammurabi.

 

You are apparently also unaware of what the Nazz had to say about Old Testament retributive justice, according to the Gospel of Matthew:

 

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also . . .

 

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

 

Ah, well, I understand that the soft and fuzzy lovey-dovey Jesus is hard for the Kill 'em All Cult to abide sometimes.

 

 

 

OK got me on the bible thing, I have never read it or gone to church and never will. And it was already said by LCR and Rex so your are overkilling this. Seems liberals like to find a mistake then pounce on it instead of answering the points I made. There is real little difference in DP or LWOP in many areas. Again serving 50 years in prison till your death or get the death penalty. To me if your going to convict an innocent man and take away his life might as well execute him. The true problem is we need to correct the wrongs in the CJ system not abolishing the DP. Dying in prison is no better.

[mr_genius]

meh, i really don't care whats in the bible about this

 

you guys do know that whole thing was just made up by some dudes right?

 

 

[Rex Kickass]

OK got me on the bible thing, I have never read it or gone to church and never will. And it was already said by LCR and Rex so your are overkilling this. Seems liberals like to find a mistake then pounce on it instead of answering the points I made. There is real little difference in DP or LWOP in many areas. Again serving 50 years in prison till your death or get the death penalty. To me if your going to convict an innocent man and take away his life might as well execute him. The true problem is we need to correct the wrongs in the CJ system not abolishing the DP. Dying in prison is no better.

 

If there are wrongs in the Criminal Justice system that you even seem to admit are there, why would you advocate using the Death Penalty while we're trying to get our system straightened out? Too many times, evidence has pointed to death row inmates not actually doing the crime of which they were convicted. How many times is too many to put an innocent man to death for a crime he didn't commit? In my book, it's one.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I don't understand when "pro-life" people make an exception for rape. It just show that their focus is not on saving the child (which is the same whether conceived through consentual sex or rape), but on punishing the mother.

[southsideirish71]

I don't understand when "pro-life" people make an exception for rape. It just show that their focus is not on saving the child (which is the same whether conceived through consentual sex or rape), but on punishing the mother.

 

Actually most pro-life people are against abortion for any reason. The hyper-catholics that protest outside of clinics believe in saving the life no matter what.

 

I just have a more open spin on the pro-life stance than some of my fellow lifers. Your conclusions on my views punishing the mother are misguided at best.

Edited June 26, 2006 by southsideirish71

[CrimsonWeltall]

Isn't the primary concern of the pro-life crowd the death of the child? If so, why would rape be an exception?

[minors]

I don't understand when "pro-life" people make an exception for rape. It just show that their focus is not on saving the child (which is the same whether conceived through consentual sex or rape), but on punishing the mother.

 

 

I am pro life but I am only willing to deal with it. I would sure like it if those babies were also adopted. I certainly do not condone ANY kind of abortion.

 

Isn't the primary concern of the pro-life crowd the death of the child? If so, why would rape be an exception?

 

I again am only willing to stomach it but I certainly do not support the pratice. Yes I am looking for the baby, I am a big adoption person I think it is a great pratice and sure would hope that rape victims would go that route first.