> Supreme Court rules for Kansas Death penalty

[Gregory Pratt]

Watch it nuke say something they don't like and they try and get you banned

 

It's the SoxTalk Inquisition!

[minors]

And this defeats the cost argument

 

 

A TIME survey found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $29,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $79,000/yr. (as of12/04). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.

 

People forget that it isn't free to house these thugs for 50 years.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

This defeats the racist argument:

A 2002 Rand Corporation study by Stephen Klein found that white murderers received the death penalty slightly more often (32%) than non-white murderers (27%). And while the study found murderers of white victims received the death penalty more often (32%) than murderers of non-white victims (23%), when controlled for variables such as severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity between those sentenced to death for killing white or black victims.

Patrick A. Lanagan, senior statistician at the Dept. of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics has studied the system in its entirety, and reports:

"I don't find evidence that the justice system is treating blacks and whites differently."

Hard to dispute a independent study.

The DOJ is really independent, not to mention the corporation that was created by the US Air Force.

 

And I'd love to see raw numbers instead of percentages because...since 1976 only Twelve white defendants have been put to death for killing a black victim comapred to 213 black defendants put to death for killing white victims.

 

But if we're going to run with DOJ stats:

According to DOJ figures, nearly 80 percent of inmates on federal death row are Black, Hispanic or from another minority group. Minorities account for 74 percent of the cases in which federal prosecutors seek the death penalty.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The DOJ is really independent, not to mention the corporation that was created by the US Air Force.

 

And I'd love to see raw numbers instead of percentages because...since 1976 only Twelve white defendants have been put to death for killing a black victim comapred to 213 black defendants put to death for killing white victims.

 

But if we're going to run with DOJ stats:

According to DOJ figures, nearly 80 percent of inmates on federal death row are Black, Hispanic or from another minority group. Minorities account for 74 percent of the cases in which federal prosecutors seek the death penalty.

 

 

The Department of Justice is not a reliable source but any of a number of your looney leftist websites that you are constantly referencing are huh?

 

LOL!

 

Did you ever stop and think that minorities commit crimes out of all proportion with their representation in the population? You may as well go ahead and say that the whole justice system is racist because so many black people have been in some phase of the correctional system.

[minors]

Even according to Barry Scheck's Innocence Project there have only been 174 DNA exonerations for ALL crimes, more than 90% of which were not murder, let alone death penalty cases. In fact, the number of inmates taken off death row specifically because DNA cleared them is....FIVE. An additional nine inmates who were once on death row were eventually fully exonerated by DNA evidence. Some might say, 14 or 140, it doesn't make a difference. That makes as much sense as being told you have a 1% mortality risk from a surgical procedure versus a 10% risk.

 

 

This takes care of the innocent argument. I think with the appeals they have a better chance of being cleared on a capital case than a LWOP case because no one gives a s*** if they aren't on the row. There is where I find fault in the liberal cause, There isn't near as much attention to the people serving LWOP as there is with DP. I think it is as big travesty to serve LWOP while innoncent then to get the injection there both bad when innocent yet it happens there as well.

 

Also to some of these thugs prison is not a punishment to the ones who live in poverty they will go and kill on purpose just so they can live better in prison. Think about roof over your head, fed, medical care, Cable TV, Exercise equipment. We should make it a crime for these thugs to commit murder instead of a reward.

[Gregory Pratt]

Also to some of these thugs prison is not a punishment to the ones who live in poverty they will go and kill on purpose just so they can live better in prison. Think about roof over your head, fed, medical care, Cable TV, Exercise equipment. We should make it a crime for these thugs to commit murder instead of a reward.

 

This is the type of thinking that can only come from someone who has been pampered their entire lives or much of it.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

This is the type of thinking that can only come from someone who has been pampered their entire lives or much of it.

 

Wrong. Actually its been my experience that the spoiled, sheltered etc........etc........ are so naive that they believe criminals aren't all bad and deserve a break.

[minors]

This is the type of thinking that can only come from someone who has been pampered their entire lives or much of it.

 

 

What the hell do you know about me? Not a f***ing thing I had to start working at 14 earning everything got. Yes I have SEEN people who have got themselves arrested to get the better conditions of jail. So don't f***ing tell me about my life. By the way how old are you because that was an incredibly naive comment from someone who must not have been out in the real world yet.

Edited June 29, 2006 by minors

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What the hell do you know about me? Not a f***ing thing I had to start working at 14 earning everything got. Yes I have SEEN people who have got themselves arrested to get the better conditions of jail. So don't f***ing tell me about my life. By the way how old are you because that was an incredibly naive comment from someone who must not have been out in the real world yet.

 

 

Dont you just love it when people make comments like that without knowing a damn thing about the person.

[minors]

Wrong. Actually its been my experience that the spoiled, sheltered etc........etc........ are so naive that they believe criminals aren't all bad and deserve a break.

 

There the damn people on the parole boards who believe that they deserve a second chance and down deep are good people and have been rehablitated they fall for the acting jobs of these thugs all the time.

 

Dont you just love it when people make comments like that without knowing a damn thing about the person.

 

 

Yes I do I bet he wasn't sweeping floors of a winn-dixie at age 14 if he even is 14 yet.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Even according to Barry Scheck's Innocence Project there have only been 174 DNA exonerations for ALL crimes, more than 90% of which were not murder, let alone death penalty cases. In fact, the number of inmates taken off death row specifically because DNA cleared them is....FIVE. An additional nine inmates who were once on death row were eventually fully exonerated by DNA evidence. Some might say, 14 or 140, it doesn't make a difference. That makes as much sense as being told you have a 1% mortality risk from a surgical procedure versus a 10% risk.

This takes care of the innocent argument. I think with the appeals they have a better chance of being cleared on a capital case than a LWOP case because no one gives a s*** if they aren't on the row. There is where I find fault in the liberal cause, There isn't near as much attention to the people serving LWOP as there is with DP. I think it is as big travesty to serve LWOP while innoncent then to get the injection there both bad when innocent yet it happens there as well.

 

Also to some of these thugs prison is not a punishment to the ones who live in poverty they will go and kill on purpose just so they can live better in prison. Think about roof over your head, fed, medical care, Cable TV, Exercise equipment. We should make it a crime for these thugs to commit murder instead of a reward.

Minors, even one innocent victim on death row is too much. Illinois had 13 exonerated death row inmates. The fact that over 100 death row inmates have been released (either because the case was too flimsy and charges were later dismissed, DNA etc.), shows that there are problems with turning over exculpatory evidence and problems with the system that could execute potentially innocent men. The fact that the idea of innocent people on death row being glossed over is not only crass but quite thuggish. Who cares that innocent people happen to die. The punishment should still be there. It is a crass disregard and a depraved indifference to human life.

 

And you're really not familiar with the justice system. 95% of a case is the very first trial. If you get a lawyer that does a bad job (because you don't have the money, the state denies you getting expert witnesses to dispel forensic testimony, your attorney falls asleep etc.) you have little to no recourse in getting successful appeals -- especially in areas known as the "death penalty belt" in the deep South.

 

The court system is more about procedure than it is about facts, proof and truth. (see the Scalia quote regarding mere innocence not being cause to overturn a death penalty punishment properly reached via procedure)

 

And please -- going to maximum security prison is not a 'reward'.

[Soxbadger]

There isn't near as much attention to the people serving LWOP as there is with DP. I think it is as big travesty to serve LWOP while innoncent then to get the injection there both bad when innocent yet it happens there as well.

 

LWOP does not equal, life with out appeal.

 

That is the difference.

 

When you are killed, you no longer have a voice. You no longer have anything. When you are put with out parole, you can still fight for your rights and appeal the decision. If new evidence is found, then you will be exonerated. Not to mention the going rate for 1 year of wrongful imprisonment is $1mil.

 

No amount of money will ever bring you back to life, no amount of regret, remorse. And the 1 innocent who is killed by the death penalty is to much for me. Because who will be accountable, who gets the death penalty for wrongly killing some one?

 

They committed murder, they committed first degree murder actually. That is the worst crime in our society, and yet we as a society are willing to hand it out. That is what I dont agree with.

 

And I understand how it feels when people talk about you when they have no clue how it is, but at the same time, have you ever been to prison? Have you ever been denied your freedom for a year, for 10 years, 50? How can you talk about what its like being a prisoner, with out first hand knowledge?

Edited June 29, 2006 by Soxbadger

[Gregory Pratt]

Wrong. Actually its been my experience that the spoiled, sheltered etc........etc........ are so naive that they believe criminals aren't all bad and deserve a break.

 

Oh, I won't deny that. It is often a sheltered, pampered person who might believe the best in people due to a lack of cynicism from not being in the real world. It is also a sign of being a pampered little prince that you'd suspect a criminal of getting arrested simply so as to have a "better" life in prison.

 

Because, you know, getting raped, beaten, and having no freedom to go out and do as you please is quite preferable to poverty. Hot damn!

 

That aside, I haven't the slightest clue who in this thread is argung that criminals deserve a "break." I thought that the argument being made was that the death penalty is excessive, unneccessary, racist, a ton of things -- but nobody here's arguing that criminals don't deserve punishment or jail.

 

Of course, details don't matter when you're dealing with a man who paints everything with the broadest of brushes.

 

What the hell do you know about me? Not a f***ing thing I had to start working at 14 earning everything got. Yes I have SEEN people who have got themselves arrested to get the better conditions of jail. So don't f***ing tell me about my life. By the way how old are you because that was an incredibly naive comment from someone who must not have been out in the real world yet.

 

Dont you just love it when people make comments like that without knowing a damn thing about the person.

 

Spare me that bulls***, Nuke. It's bulls*** coming from you, Sir People With Cancer Who Are Prescribed Pot Are Jackasses.

 

And Minors: what the hell do you know about half the people you talk about? You're the one who goes around cursing up a storm whenever there's a minor disagreement or a large one, and "god damned liberals" seems to be the only point you ever consistently make.

 

That and, " President Bush"

And also, "I hate liberals all right that'll never change"

And, "[anything] f***ing [anything]"

 

Yes I do I bet he wasn't sweeping floors of a winn-dixie at age 14 if he even is 14 yet.

 

I'm seriously beginning to doubt that you know how to read. Hello, my signature says that I'm not seventeen yet, but will be in August. Maybe you were just trying to be cute, and switching away from profane and illiterate.

 

And please -- going to maximum security prison is not a 'reward'.

 

Clearly you've never experienced the joy of being raped with a cable TV on in the background

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Girls, you're all pretty.

 

Keep it to the debate and less on the personal insults.

 

Gracias.

 

-Your friendly neighborhood moderator.

[minors]

LWOP does not equal, life with out appeal.

 

That is the difference.

 

When you are killed, you no longer have a voice. You no longer have anything. When you are put with out parole, you can still fight for your rights and appeal the decision. If new evidence is found, then you will be exhonerated. Not to mention the going rate for 1 year of wrongful imprisonment is $1mil.

 

No amount of money will ever bring you back to life, no amount of regret, remorse. And the 1 innocent who is killed by the death penalty is to much for me. Because who will be accountable, who gets the death penalty for wrongly killing some one?

 

They committed murder, they committed first degree murder actually. That is the worst crime in our society, and yet we as a society are willing to hand it out. That is what I dont agree with.

 

And I understand how it feels when people talk about you when they have no clue how it is, but at the same time, have you ever been to prison? Have you ever been denied your freedom for a year, for 10 years, 50? How can you talk about what its like being a prisoner, with out first hand knowledge?

 

 

So dying prison is better because you get an appeal? I hear two different versions on this first is that 95% of our case is at 1st trial the other is you have a great chance of getting cleared if you are LWOP. So which is it are you doomed after the trial or do you have a good shot at an appeal? If the innocent project and all these other teams and slew of investigators can not find something to at least get you a new trial after 10 years then guess what they might be guilty such a novel idea. If we were not as soft on crime as we are now maybe the crime rate would decrease. If the prison these thugs are going to are ran like Joe's in Arizona then I might agree to LWOP. But of course the liberals think the punishment is to hard there as well.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So dying prison is better because you get an appeal? I hear two different versions on this first is that 95% of our case is at 1st trial the other is you have a great chance of getting cleared if you are LWOP. So which is it are you doomed after the trial or do you have a good shot at an appeal? If the innocent project and all these other teams and slew of investigators can not find something to at least get you a new trial after 10 years then guess what they might be guilty such a novel idea. If we were not as soft on crime as we are now maybe the crime rate would decrease. If the prison these thugs are going to are ran like Joe's in Arizona then I might agree to LWOP. But of course the liberals think the punishment is to hard there as well.

Too soft on crime?!?!? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL That is damn rich...

 

It isn't easy to get a new trial or even a damn evidentiary hearing in some areas of the US because of the irrational hardon for the death penalty.

 

Please quit painting with such a large brush because it does your points no favors and really de-legitimizes much of the debate by creating a false dichotomy regarding the issue at hand. It greatly inhibits debate.

[minors]

Oh, I won't deny that. It is often a sheltered, pampered person who might believe the best in people due to a lack of cynicism from not being in the real world. It is also a sign of being a pampered little prince that you'd suspect a criminal of getting arrested simply so as to have a "better" life in prison.

 

Because, you know, getting raped, beaten, and having no freedom to go out and do as you please is quite preferable to poverty. Hot damn!

 

That aside, I haven't the slightest clue who in this thread is argung that criminals deserve a "break." I thought that the argument being made was that the death penalty is excessive, unneccessary, racist, a ton of things -- but nobody here's arguing that criminals don't deserve punishment or jail.

 

Of course, details don't matter when you're dealing with a man who paints everything with the broadest of brushes.

Spare me that bulls***, Nuke. It's bulls*** coming from you, Sir People With Cancer Who Are Prescribed Pot Are Jackasses.

 

And Minors: what the hell do you know about half the people you talk about? You're the one who goes around cursing up a storm whenever there's a minor disagreement or a large one, and "god damned liberals" seems to be the only point you ever consistently make.

 

That and, " President Bush"

And also, "I hate liberals all right that'll never change"

And, "[anything] f***ing [anything]"

I'm seriously beginning to doubt that you know how to read. Hello, my signature says that I'm not seventeen yet, but will be in August. Maybe you were just trying to be cute, and switching away from profane and illiterate.

Clearly you've never experienced the joy of being raped with a cable TV on in the background

 

 

 

A minor disagreement??? You come on here with out knowing a damn thing about my life and start attacking me. I agree that I have a short temper but I don't tolerate strangers trying to tell me how I have lived. Yes I did know you are 16. Oh by the way my brother served 2 years in Prison for a B&E and Prison is all about power only the weak get treated like that.

[Soxy]

Gregory and Minors, enough.

 

 

 

Since you've been warned by LCR this is locked.

[Soxbadger]

It completely discredits Bush and GITMO because he did something illegal.

 

But outisde of that...

 

And here was my answer in the other locked thread, I dont feel like starting a new one and I already typed it out. I wont carry it on, but I just felt like there should be an answer.

 

Minors,

 

Well you are attributing arguments to me that I did not make, but I will gladly answer.

 

Appeals are rarely won. In fact, in all forms of law they are won less than the first trial. Now I dont know if the stat is 95% or 51%, it really does not matter, every trial lawyer will tell you that the most important thing is to win in the first trial. It is even more important in criminal cases.

 

Why?

 

Because they are all trial by jury. This is very important because in many other areas trial by jury is waived in favor of a bench trial. When there is a bench trial, there is a much higher liklihood of reversal. Why? Because the standards are different.

 

And you can not put a time on it, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, because it is not time which should be the underlying factor, it should be guilt. And regardless of whether they were guilty for 50 years and then proved innocent, or 1 day and then proved innocent, the end result is, that they are innocent. And when they are innocent, they are deserving of NO punishment.

 

Our system is fallible, and as such we are not capable of handling a punishment that is irreversible. We are not god, we are just mortals. Each one of us with our own imperfections, but in the end who are we to judge what life is worth living and what life is worth ending.

 

And I do not think death penalty is that great of a deterent, otherwise you would see drastic differences in crime statistics between states with the death penalty and those with out.

[minors]

It completely discredits Bush and GITMO because he did something illegal.

 

But outisde of that...

 

And here was my answer in the other locked thread, I dont feel like starting a new one and I already typed it out. I wont carry it on, but I just felt like there should be an answer.

 

Minors,

 

Well you are attributing arguments to me that I did not make, but I will gladly answer.

 

Appeals are rarely won. In fact, in all forms of law they are won less than the first trial. Now I dont know if the stat is 95% or 51%, it really does not matter, every trial lawyer will tell you that the most important thing is to win in the first trial. It is even more important in criminal cases.

 

Why?

 

Because they are all trial by jury. This is very important because in many other areas trial by jury is waived in favor of a bench trial. When there is a bench trial, there is a much higher likelihood of reversal. Why? Because the standards are different.

 

And you can not put a time on it, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, because it is not time which should be the underlying factor, it should be guilt. And regardless of whether they were guilty for 50 years and then proved innocent, or 1 day and then proved innocent, the end result is, that they are innocent. And when they are innocent, they are deserving of NO punishment.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on this appeals are hard to win and no time should not be a factor. But I also don't like it that people that start serving when they are 20 and serve 50 years or how long they live in prison for a crime they didn't commit. The system is not perfect at all people have been innocently killed and some have spent there lives in prison for crimes they didn't commit.