Soxplosion Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 No offense witesoxfan, but I dont treat '59 and '19 the same as I treat '17. '17 was a true victory. In my mind, just getting there doesnt mean crap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Fox went 9 for 24 (.375) in the 59 WS and fielded flawlessly. He was one of few Sox players not to go in to the tank in a WS they had every reason to believe they should win. He played the game like witesoxfan said. I have read several accounts that he and Mgr Al Lopez had a falling out over Al's failure to start Billy Pierce in the WS. I remember Nellie defiantly pumping his glove after the Sox shut out the Dodgers 1-0 in game 5. Bob Shaw outdueled Sandy Koufax in that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Yes they did have it on every team and heres are the Yankees: DH-Don Baylor C-Yogi Berra 1B-Lou Gehrig 2B-Tony Lazzeri SS-Derek Jeter 3B-Craig Nettles LF-Charlie Keller CF-Mickey Mantle RF-Babe Ruth SP-Whitey Ford SP-Red Ruffing SP-Ron Guidry SP-Lefty Gomez RP-Mariano Rivera Thats basically a hall of fame lineup, Joe Dimaggio didnt even make that list. :fyou the Evil Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Mickey Mantle vs. Joe DiMaggio... hmmmm ... flip a coin, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Mickey Mantle vs. Joe DiMaggio... hmmmm ... flip a coin, I guess. Both were good but Mantle was better. Joe didnt hit 500, did he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 This may be unpopular, but Shoeless Joe Jackson should not be on the list. Replace him with Wayne Nordhagen or Ralph Garr, I don't care, but he shouldn't be included. Let "Field of Dreams" or "Eight Men Out" try to rewrite history, but Jackson helped throw the World Series. He admitted as much when he said that he didn't try as hard as he could have to make plays in the field because it would have helped the Sox win. The Eight Men Out book made this perfectly clear...why the movie portrayed him as an unknowing rube who never participated in the fix is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 your right thats an unpopular statement.......... whats not to love about joes accomplishments........and i honestly dont believe he had part in that throw the series thing.......not willingly anyhow........www.blackbetsy.com try there and read a bit and look at the official documents and such..... its run by his family..........they are tryin to clear his name...........i think he should be........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Screw him. He cheated and just like Sammy and Perry, he deserves to be remembered as one. He was a good player but sadly, like other historic cheaters, he had to ruin it by cheating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC2784 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Screw him. He cheated and just like Sammy and Perry, he deserves to be remembered as one. He was a good player but sadly, like other historic cheaters, he had to ruin it by cheating... But would you agree that he should be reinstated before Pete Rose? Technically his "lifetime ban" should have expired at the time of his death anyway, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Good point. Yet I dont think Rose did anything wrong by gambling, Jackson, by intentionally losing did do wrong and he messed up history while doing so. We had a great team, we coulda won a few more championships and maybe turned out to be a pretty historic franchise. Instead we have the second longest championship drought in baseball... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC2784 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Good point. Yet I dont think Rose did anything wrong by gambling, Jackson, by intentionally losing did do wrong and he messed up history while doing so. We had a great team, we coulda won a few more championships and maybe turned out to be a pretty historic franchise. Instead we have the second longest championship drought in baseball... Or do you blame the old roman himself for underpaying the players and not hearing Jackson's case when Jackson went up to tell him what was going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Youre right Jackson did try to tell my SN but to no avail. So it doesnt matter. He coulda just gone off on his own and played his best but instead he threw the series. Im not sorry hell never be in the Hall... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Good point. Yet I dont think Rose did anything wrong by gambling, Jackson, by intentionally losing did do wrong and he messed up history while doing so. We had a great team, we coulda won a few more championships and maybe turned out to be a pretty historic franchise. Instead we have the second longest championship drought in baseball... I remember a while back you said that you were reading 8 Men Out. Did you finish it? Jackson took money, that can't be denied. Whether or not he "threw" any games I doubt. Jackson and to a much greater extent Buck Weaver have my sympathies. Weaver just wouldn't rat out his teammates. Where he grew up (Pennsylvania coal mine country) that sort of thing would get you a severe beating or worse. Jackson was also greatly intimidated by SS Swede Risberg and Chick Gandil the main movers behind this tragic scheme. I'm not trying to make Jackson a saint, but the story is very multi-layered and complicated. Just for the record Shoeless Joe hit .375 the highest of any player on either team and drove in 6 runs to lead the Sox. He made no errors in the field. Weaver went 11 for 34 (.324) and also made no errors. Chick Gandil, Al Cicotte and Lefty Williams were the biggest villains on the field. You are right about this series changing history. Catcher Ray Schalk told long time Chicago sportswriter Bill Gleason in the 1950's that if it hadn't been for 1919 there would have been no Yankee dynasty. Don't know if that is completely true. I do know there would have been a hell of a lot more competition for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I read Eight Men Out many years ago, but I thought for sure that it told how Jackson in a magazine interview admitted to making sure he couldn't get to some balls in the field so that they'd lose. I think that right there is enough to damn him. I don't buy the argument that he hit so well or didn't make any errors. Getting a bases empty single with two outs will help the batting average, but won't do too much to win a game. Same for hitting a home run in the eighth inning of an 8-1 game. A few key plays are the ones that win and lose ballgames...those are the ones that are fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Stats are only half the story. Just because you have good stats does not necessarily mean you are a great player. I agree with you to a point. Stats can be deceiving, but when you see a guy with a career average of .333, you can bet your ASS he was a great player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I remember a while back you said that you were reading 8 Men Out. Did you finish it? Jackson took money, that can't be denied. Whether or not he "threw" any games I doubt. Jackson and to a much greater extent Buck Weaver have my sympathies. Weaver just wouldn't rat out his teammates. Where he grew up (Pennsylvania coal mine country) that sort of thing would get you a severe beating or worse. Jackson was also greatly intimidated by SS Swede Risberg and Chick Gandil the main movers behind this tragic scheme. I'm not trying to make Jackson a saint, but the story is very multi-layered and complicated. Just for the record Shoeless Joe hit .375 the highest of any player on either team and drove in 6 runs to lead the Sox. He made no errors in the field. Weaver went 11 for 34 (.324) and also made no errors. Chick Gandil, Al Cicotte and Lefty Williams were the biggest villains on the field. You are right about this series changing history. Catcher Ray Schalk told long time Chicago sportswriter Bill Gleason in the 1950's that if it hadn't been for 1919 there would have been no Yankee dynasty. Don't know if that is completely true. I do know there would have been a hell of a lot more competition for them. Nope never finished it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I read Eight Men Out many years ago, but I thought for sure that it told how Jackson in a magazine interview admitted to making sure he couldn't get to some balls in the field so that they'd lose. I think that right there is enough to damn him. I don't buy the argument that he hit so well or didn't make any errors. Getting a bases empty single with two outs will help the batting average, but won't do too much to win a game. Same for hitting a home run in the eighth inning of an 8-1 game. A few key plays are the ones that win and lose ballgames...those are the ones that are fixed. Youre right. Cicotte got a comebacker with a runner on first and started a double play but he did it slow enough to avoid getting it and this led to a big inning. I dont know how his stats were but he definitely threw it. All that you say about stats, its all very true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Both were good but Mantle was better. Joe didnt hit 500, did he? Dimaggio did not hit 500, you're right. His career numbers are .325, 361, and 1537. He was a 3-time MVP, but to me the most amazing thing is that he had 361 career HR, and only 369 career strikeouts. That is simply amazing. If you combine his best numbers, his best year would have been .381, 46, 167. Excellent numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 How was his D? Cuz I know Mickey played killer D... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Both were good but Mantle was better. Joe didnt hit 500, did he? No, but did Mantle ever nail Marilyn Monroe? Seriously, Mickey Mantle was the greatest baseball player I ever laid eyes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 No, but did Mantle ever nail Marilyn Monroe? Ooh, youre right! Mantle was a great player, but he was a drunk too, and he never got Monroe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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