White Sox may be in trouble

[GoRowand33]

I'm not worried about the Twins as of now because they did their damage against the inferior NL and no way in hell they keep up their winning. also 2 pitchers do not win divisions, so I expect a little trail off there

 

the tigers will almost certainly trail off a little bit, its inevitable over the course of a season, and with a young team that chance increases even more

 

as for our sox, I do see a small bit of concern in our starting pitches, but I have faith in Coop that he can atleast make them all respectable

[RibbieRubarb]

Have you been reading the threads here? I mean Jesus, just start with this one.

 

Let's start with your avatar...

[Frankensteiner]

Let's start with your avatar...

 

What is that have to do with anything?

[RibbieRubarb]

What is that have to do with anything?

 

Symptomatic.

How is Greg Walker worthless?

 

It's that extreme negativity that's devoid of any factual support that is prevelant lately that I find confusing.

[jackie hayes]

Symptomatic.

How is Greg Walker worthless?

 

It's that extreme negativity that's devoid of any factual support that is prevelant lately that I find confusing.

All due respect, but -- you're comparing that to this thread, which began with litany of "factual support"??? You can't pick out something totally unrelated and say, 'There, point made.'

[Frankensteiner]

Symptomatic.

How is Greg Walker worthless?

 

Maybe you shouldn't take things so literally?

 

It's that extreme negativity that's devoid of any factual support that is prevelant lately that I find confusing.

 

Calling the original post (or pretty much any of the supposedly negative posts around here) "devoid of any factual support" is exactly the type of snobby tone with wich many of these concerns are met. This is why I agree with Milkman with his assesment of the board.

[RibbieRubarb]

Maybe you shouldn't take things so literally?

 

My mistake if it was sarcastic.

 

Calling the original post (or pretty much any of the supposedly negative posts around here) "devoid of any factual support" is exactly the type of snobby tone with wich many of these concerns are met. This is why I agree with Milkman with his assesment of the board.

All due respect, but -- you're comparing that to this thread, which began with litany of "factual support"??? You can't pick out something totally unrelated and say, 'There, point made.'

 

 

I agree that was a bit harsh turn of phrase.

I think what i meant is that we are not taking things into perspective when we look at the facts.

 

To say based on one month that Minnesota will not lose another game when Santana/Liriano pitch and we will end up in third place is a bit extreme.

There are other figures and facts out there to point otherwise.

It seems that there is a gravitation towards the darker side of the facts on this site when our team is doing so well.

Thats what is confusing.

Be critical, sure. But there should be some perspective behind it.

Edited July 3, 2006 by RibbieRubarb

[Frankensteiner]

My mistake if it was sarcastic.

 

Well, I made the avatar last year when the Sox were struggling to score runs, so it wasn't entirely sarcastic. However, fitting "I don't think Greg Walker is doing a very good job" on a picture of that size is somewhat of a problem.

[jackie hayes]

My mistake if it was sarcastic.

I agree that was a bit harsh turn of phrase.

I think what i meant is that we are not taking things into perspective when we look at the facts.

 

To say based on one month that Minnesota will not lose another game when Santana/Liriano pitch and we will end up in third place is a bit extreme.

There are other figures and facts out there to point otherwise.

It seems that there is a gravitation towards the darker side of the facts on this site when our team is doing so well.

Thats what is confusing.

Be critical, sure. But there should be some perspective behind it.

Imo, the op provided a lot of perspective. Looking squarely at questions like, How tough will it be for Detroit to reach 100 wins?, is pretty good analysis for the standards of mb. Throwing out the 'chicken little' pic at a post like is just overreaction, another way of telling someone to shut up.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw. The starters are all above their career era averages (except Jose, maybe, I'm not certain -- but I think you have to look at those first couple years as rookie-like), so I think there's a very good chance we'll see significant improvements. And BA can't possibly hit this badly the whole year. But at least provide those "other figures and facts" you mention if you're gonna criticize that detailed a post.

[Pants Rowland]

I spent too much of last year waiting for the moment that it falls apart that I did not enjoy enough of the regular season. I agree that we sometimes do not take enough time to enjoy the game. Rather we are concerned about analyzing and criticizing that we forget how fun and beautiful baseball can be.

 

However, the fact is the offense and the wins have greatly masked the poor performance of the starting five this year as well as the lack of fundamentals, in particular during the month of June. With the exception of Contreras early on in the season, no starter has been consistent. Every team endures struggles throughout the season but overall it should balance out. Hopefully between the coaches, the players, and KW, the Sox will enter October in position for another long postseason run and possible title.

 

As far as the optimism versus pessimism debate goes. I have not been posting on this site for very long, but there is definitely a fear of pointing out the elephant in the living room around here. I remember a while back when Contreras went down and Haeger was called up, this board crucified the poster who leaked the story before it became official. The poster brought some of it on him/herself with a rather cryptic message and not enough backup info. But, too much of the discussion was filled with hostility toward this individual primarily because no one wanted to believe the hard truth that Contreras was hurt. For some reason a lot of people would rather beat someone into submission rather than explore the truth.

 

Saying everything is perfect does not make it so. I saw some lethal Cleveland offenses destroy their regular season foes but never win a title in the 90's. The White Sox should make the playoffs and feasibly could win over 100 games. However, without consistency from the starting five the postseason will end in early rather than late October. That is my concern more than anything. Outslugging your opponent does not work in the long haul and it is not what brought the Yankees all the titles they had before they became an overpaid all-star team. Pitching, defense and fundamentally sound baseball is still the formula for success. Even Ozzie has been critical of the lack of fundamentals and consistency from the team. He know that the home runs are nice but they are covering up the flaws that need to be corrected.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 3, 2006 -> 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is that have to do with anything?

 

ALOT! There are surely more tasteful ways to express your displeasure in a guy isnt there....?

 

Lets try to represent the Chicago White Sox organization with the CLASS they deserve!

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Legitimate criticism is worthwhile, entertaining and thought provoking.

 

However, I do believe there is a contingent on the board that just wants to b**** for the sake of b****ing, no matter what happens in any given game (i.e. the "Thome, can you please adjust to the inside pitch" thread or the "We have to sweep Pittsburgh" thread or the "Well, we're going to be 4.5 out after the Cubs series" comments et al.)

 

I swear for some (read again, some) of the people here -- if the White Sox walked on water, there'd be some ST'ers decrying how they didn't swim.

 

That said, let the legitimate discussion continue to devolve and make Soxtalk into a personal diaper for everybody in a mindset that things like evidence, facts and logic will do little to no damage.

[RibbieRubarb]

Imo, the op provided a lot of perspective. Looking squarely at questions like, How tough will it be for Detroit to reach 100 wins?, is pretty good analysis for the standards of mb. Throwing out the 'chicken little' pic at a post like is just overreaction, another way of telling someone to shut up.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw. The starters are all above their career era averages (except Jose, maybe, I'm not certain -- but I think you have to look at those first couple years as rookie-like), so I think there's a very good chance we'll see significant improvements. And BA can't possibly hit this badly the whole year. But at least provide those "other figures and facts" you mention if you're gonna criticize that detailed a post.

 

Perhaps it's the assertions that are derived from the facts.

That we will be in third place, Santana/Liriano will never lose again this year and the Tigers will not falter.

Now I agree our pitching has not been consistant this year. But our starters have a history and it's a solid one. But to assume that Minnesota/Detroit will not have any bad runs (especially with rookie/young pitching and unbalanced/unproven line-ups) is NOT looking at the facts and only looking to find the negative against us.

 

But hey...We all want the same thing here. White Sox winners.

Edited July 3, 2006 by RibbieRubarb

[jackie hayes]

Legitimate criticism is worthwhile, entertaining and thought provoking.

 

However, I do believe there is a contingent on the board that just wants to b**** for the sake of b****ing, no matter what happens in any given game (i.e. the "Thome, can you please adjust to the inside pitch" thread or the "We have to sweep Pittsburgh" thread or the "Well, we're going to be 4.5 out after the Cubs series" comments et al.)

 

I swear for some (read again, some) of the people here -- if the White Sox walked on water, there'd be some ST'ers decrying how they didn't swim.

 

That said, let the legitimate discussion continue to devolve and make Soxtalk into a personal diaper for everybody in a mindset that things like evidence, facts and logic will do little to no damage.

Fair enough. But the real question is why this issue came up in a thread that it obviously doesn't apply to. Because some pessimists overreact in one place and threadcrap, that gives optimists the right to overreact and threadcrap somewhere else?

 

The op provided a ton of facts and analysis. Meanwhile, there's yet another of those 'jeepers, calm down, fellas' threads sprung up that provides zero in the way of analysis, and noone's jumping down his throat.

[southsideirish71]

All of our pitchers are just a bit off. Not the major disaster that everyone is making it out to be.

 

Javier Vazquez: Javier gets a lot of hitters into 2 strike situations, probably as many as Contreras does. His problem from what I have seen is making quality pitches on 2 strikes. He has a nasty slider that he doesnt throw enough to right handers. He faced Derrick Lee and in 2 consecutive ABs he attacked the zone differently. He got ahead 1-2, then the first time he threw a slider that started on the outside corner and went away. Derrick fished for it, and it was a K. The next time he threw a two seam fastball that ran back over the plate. Derrick hit the ball into left field. It was two things a poor pitch call by AJ, and poor execution by Vaz. Getting cute and trying to back door a guy with a 1-2 count is dangerous. IMO if he threw another slider away, its either a strikeout or a popout to right and the inning is over. After the mistake pitch, Ramirez hits a homer 3 runs scored. He was 1 pitch away from getting out of the inning. Its just execution, and picking the right attack model.

 

Garland: He has to do 2 things to be successful. One is to throw 1st pitch strikes. He gets that first pitch over and he can then get them to hit his sinker. When Jon is 2-0 on hitters he doesnt have the fastball to blow people by. When he throws strikes he is a much more effective hitter. Secondly he needs to start to throw in more to righties and away from lefties. When you pitch into righties with his down and in action, he gets a lot of pounded into the dirt balls and broken bats. Its what he did last year to be successful in the first part of the year. Also you cannot throw down and in to the lefties. That is the sweet spot for a lot of lefties and they handle that pitch very well.

 

Buerhle: Buerhle needs to run his cutter in on the right handers. When he doesnt establish the inside corner, we see what happened yesterday, a lot of guys diving over the plate and hitting his offspeed stuff away hard. When he pounds that cutter in, they cant dive like that. When he goes away, away, away he gets hurt.

 

Garcia: His fastball is pretty much a different pitch than last year. He needs to mix a two seamer in. He is another guy who needs to establish his fastball to make his breaking pitches better. For the years of Freddy having a great fastball, he would start every game throwing a ton of breaking pitches. He would get a lot of strikeouts earlier, and with throwing breaking pitches that take some time to get into a groove, he would give up a lot of early runs. Then later in the game, he would use his sinker more and his fastball inside more. He needs to almost pitch backwards. He needs to use his sinker and fastball more early on, then go to his breaking pitches as the game progresses. He is someone that gets hurt now, because his breaking stuff is excellent, however when you see it 3 times in a game, you get a gage for how to hit it. Plus as breaking stuff goes, he has a propensity to hang it the more he throws it early in a game. Just a few things separate a consistant starter with his new found lost velocity. He also needs to throw more strikes. Without having the big fastball, he cannot get into 2-0 counts because his fastball is now pedestrian and will get him hurt in those situations.

 

Contreras: Stuff nasty nothing more to say. He just needs to get on top of his fastball more and keep it down. Coop was saying on the radio that he currently is between arm angles and is letting the ball fly. This would explain why he is now easier to hit and has been getting hit more. If Jose throws early fastballs and can get different angles his forkball will be unhittable. My only question is why did he add a 3rd arm angle after his last DL. Adding a major change like that makes for more mistakes and being in between of your mechanics. Kind of what we have been seeing.

 

Again, these are things that can be ironed out. Its not a major overhaul. Its just minor tweaks that need to happen, and our pitching will be fine.

[jackie hayes]

Perhaps it's the assertions that are derived from the facts.

That we will be in third place, Santana/Liriano will never lose again this year and the Tigers will not falter.

Now I agree our pitching has not been consistant this year. But our starters have a history and it's a solid one. But to assume that Minnesota/Detroit will not have any bad runs (especially with rookie/young pitching and unbalanced/unproven line-ups) is NOT looking at the facts and only looking to find the negative against us.

 

But hey...We all want the same thing here. White Sox winners.

He said we "could" finish third.

 

The Santana/Liriano thing is overblown, agreed. 7-3 the rest of the way would be one HELL of a half. Which some people mentioned.

 

I didn't take it as "the Tigers will not falter." He said they won't "collapse", and mentioned how 44-36 (iirc) is reasonable without one, although that would obviously be faltering, and would definitely involve some "bad runs". That's reasonable.

 

And I've spent the whole season expecting Detroit to collapse.

[CWSGuy406]

I'm not worried about the Twins as of now because they did their damage against the inferior NL and no way in hell they keep up their winning. also 2 pitchers do not win divisions, so I expect a little trail off there

 

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2001.shtml

[Jordan4life_2007]

Excellent analysis, ssirish.

[jackie hayes]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2001.shtml

Oh, great, so you want to start some Brian Anderson bashing, too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RibbieRubarb]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2001.shtml

 

Veteran team, veteran top 2 pitchers with a 57 hr hitter. Big difference.

[Rowand44]

So are we just going to have a new thread on this everyday? I think everyone on this site knows that our starting pitching needs to get better and to be honest, it's going to get better. Another thing that comes into this whole equation is our bullpen that is much better then was advertised. Our starters have obviously not been getting the job done but our pen(minus cliff) has been able for the most part to hold opponents right where they were at and allow our offense to come back, which they've been doing plenty of. Remember at this time last year, we had 3 pitchers that were doing pretty solid, another who wasn't good at all and really had 0 upside and another who we had no idea what we were getting from, from start to start. Our starters do need to get better but it's pretty ridiculous to panic about it on July 3rd.

[jackie hayes]

Calling it panic doesn't make it panic.

[Rowand44]

Calling it panic doesn't make it panic.

Sure seems like there is some panic. I've seen a ton of "our starting pitching sucks. We're not going far in the playoffs with this starting pitching." There sure are a lot of posters who give up on players REAL early on this site.

[Greg Hibbard]

Veteran team, veteran top 2 pitchers with a 57 hr hitter. Big difference.

 

1) We have three hitters on pace for 40+ home runs, and another on pace for 30.

2) Contreras and Buehrle are capable of being as dominant as Schilling and Johnson were in that season, and I sure as f*** like Garcia and Garland more than Omar Daal or whoever the f*** they were running out there

3) Bobby Jenks >>>>>> BK Kim

 

As for the "no middle ground" contigent...it's ok to say "Buehrle sucked today." It's not ok to say something like "Buehrle sucks ("at all times" implied), and this team is not making the playoffs or winning the division or winning the world series." It's also not ok to say "Garland needs to be demoted" or "Vazquez is a piece of s***," because believe it or not, mediocre first halves happen. Ask Jose Contreras about 2005. And as much as you might like the White Sox coaching staff to react to your every whim, they're not going to do that, because sticking with a philosophy and fixing things from within is what won them a championship in 2005.

 

EDIT: and the reason why I say it's not ok to say those things about Garland and Vazquez, because realistically, there's no way to use them on this team if they are not starting, and there's no guarantee McCarthy would be any better. CLEARLY the best course of action for now (while they are still WINNING!) is to stick with them until at least the end of July.

Edited July 3, 2006 by Greg Hibbard

[jackie hayes]

Sure seems like there is some panic. I've seen a ton of "our starting pitching sucks. We're not going far in the playoffs with this starting pitching." There sure are a lot of posters who give up on players REAL early on this site.

But is it here, in this thread?

 

The question is whether it's possible here to make a negative point and not be shouted down.