White Sox may be in trouble

[BigSqwert]

EDIT: and the reason why I say it's not ok to say those things about Garland and Vazquez, because realistically, there's no way to use them on this team if they are not starting, and there's no guarantee McCarthy would be any better. CLEARLY the best course of action for now (while they are still WINNING!) is to stick with them until at least the end of July.

I agree. And we will now start playing some of the better teams. For some reason we seem to step it up against the elite teams and play down to the lower tiered teams.

[RibbieRubarb]

1) We have three hitters on pace for 40+ home runs, and another on pace for 30.

2) Contreras and Buehrle are capable of being as dominant as Schilling and Johnson were in that season, and I sure as f*** like Garcia and Garland more than Omar Daal or whoever the f*** they were running out there

3) Bobby Jenks >>>>>> BK Kim

 

As for the "no middle ground" contigent...it's ok to say "Buehrle sucked today." It's not ok to say something like "Buehrle sucks ("at all times" implied), and this team is not making the playoffs or winning the division or winning the world series." It's also not ok to say "Garland needs to be demoted" or "Vazquez is a piece of s***," because believe it or not, mediocre first halves happen. Ask Jose Contreras about 2005. And as much as you might like the White Sox coaching staff to react to your every whim, they're not going to do that, because sticking with a philosophy and fixing things from within is what won them a championship in 2005.

 

EDIT: and the reason why I say it's not ok to say those things about Garland and Vazquez, because realistically, there's no way to use them on this team if they are not starting, and there's no guarantee McCarthy would be any better. CLEARLY the best course of action for now (while they are still WINNING!) is to stick with them until at least the end of July.

 

Um...read back a few posts.

The reference was directed towards Minnesota, not us.

Edited July 3, 2006 by RibbieRubarb

[Rowand44]

But is it here, in this thread?

 

The question is whether it's possible here to make a negative point and not be shouted down.

There are always plenty of threads here that come through the negative view point. I also think what people hate around here is how ridiculous game threads can get and that kind of flows over onto other threads. When you see a poster say "GARLAND f***IN SUCKS" for letting up two runs in an inning and then he shuts them down the rest of the way, next thing you see that same poster make a real negative post and you realize how reactionary some people can be. Anyways, my point is when things go wrong for a little while this board becomes 100 percent negative with people literally jumping off buildings(choke avatars anyone). When you some some pessimists start threads like this, it's pretty natural for optimists to come into the thread and shoot them down a little bit especially when you have a team 25 games over .500 on July 3rd. To me, this is is just an unnecessary thread, I mean "White Sox maybe be in trouble if pitching doesn't come around," well...duh, everyone knows that.

[kapkomet]

I agree. And we will now start playing some of the better teams. For some reason we seem to step it up against the elite teams and play down to the lower tiered teams.

Good post, and I agree 100%.

[TitoMB345]

There is no doubt in my mind the pitching staff will turn it around. Not a single doubt. Maybe not all of them (Vazquez) as I think he might be dealt at the deadline, but this staff is way too damn skilled to not turn it up. We ALL know the Twins, Tigers, and even us will keep up this pace. Each of these teams will go on a losing streak at some point, and each will go on another winning rampage. We ALL KNOW its going to happen.

 

I usually am one to jump the gun on things at impulse, but over time, I really have no worries for this team. The reason I am like that is because I am a diehard, and I live and die by this team.

 

I have a feeling this thread might be one of those knee-jerk reactions.

[jackie hayes]

There are always plenty of threads here that come through the negative view point. I also think what people hate around here is how ridiculous game threads can get and that kind of flows over onto other threads. When you see a poster say "GARLAND f***IN SUCKS" for letting up two runs in an inning and then he shuts them down the rest of the way, next thing you see that same poster make a real negative post and you realize how reactionary some people can be. Anyways, my point is when things go wrong for a little while this board becomes 100 percent negative with people literally jumping off buildings(choke avatars anyone). When you some some pessimists start threads like this, it's pretty natural for optimists to come into the thread and shoot them down a little bit especially when you have a team 25 games over .500 on July 3rd. To me, this is is just an unnecessary thread, I mean "White Sox maybe be in trouble if pitching doesn't come around," well...duh, everyone knows that.

What do game threads have to do with this one?

 

I just don't like this lumping of everything negative in one pile. I get tired of the Garland stuff too, but I also get tired of the 'Coop and his magic fingers' response to any crap pitching performance. Anything lacking thought. But suppose there were a thread giving some facts about Uribe's performance in past years, suggesting that it should be smooth sailing the rest of the way (looking at monthly splits or something, I dunno, just throwing something out), and makes the point that 'defense is important' -- I'm not gonna go in there and tell the op that he's just another Goldilocks with his eyes shut to what's happening on the field.

 

Why is so damn hard to look at the merits of the post you're responding to, not some post that annoyed you yesterday?

[kapkomet]

"Honestly, we don't put too much stock in opinion outside of our clubhouse. I'm not saying that to sound arrogant, but if we would have listened to what people outside the clubhouse were saying, we wouldn't have had our second baseman, our right fielder, the left fielder, the center fielder, shortstop, half the pitching staff and the catcher. So, sorry, we believe in what we believe in, and that's the way we'll sink or swim.''

 

I should just post this everywhere.

[Rowand44]

What do game threads have to do with this one?

 

I just don't like this lumping of everything negative in one pile. I get tired of the Garland stuff too, but I also get tired of the 'Coop and his magic fingers' response to any crap pitching performance. Anything lacking thought. But suppose there were a thread giving some facts about Uribe's performance in past years, suggesting that it should be smooth sailing the rest of the way (looking at monthly splits or something, I dunno, just throwing something out), and makes the point that 'defense is important' -- I'm not gonna go in there and tell the op that he's just another Goldilocks with his eyes shut to what's happening on the field.

 

Why is so damn hard to look at the merits of the post you're responding to, not some post that annoyed you yesterday?

Well, I think some people just get tired of seeing negative crap day in and day out from a team that is 25 over, that's all I'm saying and that's why I threw the game threads in there, cause a lot of times those are just unreadable. Anyways, I see what you're saying but imo a lot of it can be overboard at times and that's what pushes peoples buttons. Also, like I said, I think everyone on this board realizes that the starters need to get better and it really has been discussed numerous times, I didn't think this thread was necessary because everyone understands already the point he was trying to get across but whatever that's done already. There are definitely people here who are just giving constructive criticism but there are also others who do seem to be panicking.

[shoota]

"Do your f***in' job in dominant fashion or I will find men who will."

 

That is the message KW needs to tell 3/5 of his starting rotation.

 

 

I despise the argument that says "no other team has a better 5th starter in the league." It is faulty logic because only one team wins the World Series and thus, that team needs to be better than every other team in the f***ing game. The objective is not to keep pace with other teams, but to lead the pack.

 

The better the players are on the Sox, the better chances they have of winning the World Series.

 

 

Give me dominance or get your mediocre ass off my team.

[Damen]

I'd be pretty surprised if Garland, Vazquez, and Garcia didn't have better second halves ERA-wise. On the other coin, we can't realisticaly expect Pauly, Dye, Crede, and AJ to match their numbers for the rest of the season either. Things are going to level out a bit over the course of the season.

 

The only thing I'm sure of is Cliff Politte. It's unfortunate, but he's done. He either needs to have the surgery he's been trying to avoid, or he needs to be out of baseball. Because right now, he should be nowhere near a major league pitching mound.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

The question is whether it's possible here to make a negative point and not be shouted down.

 

So some of you wanna state your opinions on a message board but don't want anyone to disagree even if your opinion is in the minority???

[Baines3]

The All Star break could change alot of teams. Our starting pitching has been erractic, but thank goodness we have the power to over come it.

 

I am concerned about the Twins they are playing good baseball lately and will be on our tail before we know it, if were not careful. Hopefully the Big Hurt will put a hurt on the Tigers tonight for us.

[kapkomet]

I'd go to battle when it counts with any of these guys, anytime, anywhere. Period. This is my team... and I'm pulling for them to get through their "troubles". After watching these guys almost blow it last year and man the hell up like no one's business, to s*** all over them before the all-star break at 25 games over .500 is asinine.

 

When the real war begins, my money's on them.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

The good news is the starting pitching can only get better from this point on.

[jackie hayes]

So some of you wanna state your opinions on a message board but don't want anyone to disagree even if your opinion is in the minority???

I can't tell if you're joking or not, so... No, and that's a pretty ridiculous way to summarize what I've been saying. What gets tired is not disagreement, but posting chicken little pics and stating how many games over .500 we are and telling people to stop being in the least bit negative about anything, for any reason, just b/c 'I'm tired of it.' It's often been said here -- if you don't want to read it, DON'T. There's no reason to post when you have nothing relevant to say, just to threadcrap.

 

People aren't even paying attention to the post at all, they're just saying, 'Oh, it's negative, and I read something negative in the gamethread and that upset me so stfu.' That's a joke.

 

And it's not "you" -- I haven't been negative at all about this team. But I read the op and I thought this way -- he's not being sensible about the Twins. They won't be THAT good. Someone had already said something like that, so no need to post it. But I've been stubbornly thinking the Tigers would fade since forever, so the reminder of what they'll need to do to hit 100 wins (not much) was interesting, a wake up.

 

Now, I don't really agree with him on it. I think he's overlooking some things -- how many games the Sox and Tigers have left head-to-head, Kenny Rogers' patented 2nd half fade -- but I'd at least POST THE REASONS.

 

Whatever. If you were joking, sorry, but you're usually funnier than that.

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't care if this is labeled as "reactionary" or "negative," but after watching Garcia's weak fastball and weaker curveball I've already written him off for the year.

 

He's not turning anything around (relating to statistics) unless his velocity returns. If it doesn't, forget about receiving value for him. Runners are going wild, curveballs are hanging left/right; he just can't rear back and fire a 94 mph fastball anymore.

[BobDylan]

Beat your division rivals, and you win the division. That's generally how baseball goes. Here's how it's stacked up so far:

 

Sox 5-1 vs. Tigers

Sox 5-2 vs. Twins

Tigers 7-2 vs. Twins

 

Minnesota stands 10 back because they are 4-12 against the teams they are chasing. Detroit has to lose their legs at SOME POINT, even if only for a week or two. But right now, though we all think the Sox are playing like s*** (and we all know damn well there is room for improvement), the Sox are 24 games over the bump. Falling 3.5 back of the Tigers before the All-Star break isn't half bad at all. The Tigers have just as many question marks as the Sox do going into the second half, but the Sox have yet to reach their peak...the Tigers are there now and I don't think they have the talent to play this good for an entire 162 games (even the Sox had their down points to last year. RE: 15 game lead went down to the wire). As far as the Twins, frankly, 4-12 against the teams you are chasing isn't going to cut it. They tore through the NL, but so did a lot of other AL teams...we'll see what happens in the 2nd half and when they have to play teams that can give them a run on any given night.

[Milkman delivers]

Sure seems like there is some panic. I've seen a ton of "our starting pitching sucks. We're not going far in the playoffs with this starting pitching." There sure are a lot of posters who give up on players REAL early on this site.

 

Rowand, we're halfway through the season. How long do we have to wait to be seriously concerned?

 

And another thing, a few of these guys haven't been "mediocre" as they're being called. A 5+ ERA is bad, not meh. That includes Vazquez and Garland. And then there's Garcia, who is clearly not the same pitcher anymore, and whose ERA is approaching 5, too. They seem to be actually getting worse instead of better, and that's the scary thing (except maybe Garland). Even Buehrle and Contreras are slipping, and I'm not even worried about them very much.

 

This is a serious problem that even our "magic" pitching coach may not be able to fix. I repeat, we are at the halfway point in the season. It's no longer reactionary.

[jackie hayes]

Garland, just has to keep the ball down. His gb/fb ratio is still totally out of whack for him.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I can't tell if you're joking or not, so... No, and that's a pretty ridiculous way to summarize what I've been saying. What gets tired is not disagreement, but posting chicken little pics and stating how many games over .500 we are and telling people to stop being in the least bit negative about anything, for any reason, just b/c 'I'm tired of it.' It's often been said here -- if you don't want to read it, DON'T. There's no reason to post when you have nothing relevant to say, just to threadcrap.

 

People aren't even paying attention to the post at all, they're just saying, 'Oh, it's negative, and I read something negative in the gamethread and that upset me so stfu.' That's a joke.

 

So you're tired of your posts being lumped with the rest of the overly-negative s*** yet you're generalizing the way that people are responding...I've read some of the responses too and a lot of them have been valid reasoning for being optimistic and not just "I'm tired of it so stfu"...

 

There's just so many more reasons to be optimistic with this team and I agree with a lot of the other sentiments that have been expressed in terms of wanting to just enjoy this team instead of always fearing the absolute worst and way over-exaggerating the bad. It's sad that some are already predicting playoff failure at this point in the season when it's clear that the team is in a good position yet wayy too early to make playoff predictions. And the majority seems to agree.

 

(But this isn't all directed to you nor am I trying to call you out or anything)

 

Anyways, it's a message board. If you post something on this type of forum, it's meant to be openly discussed, within the accepted parameters.

 

Personally, it seems like some people like to make ridiculous, reactionary, negative doomsday predictions just so they can say "I told you so" if it happens. Sad to me. I'd rather just sit back and enjoy the ride...

[Milkman delivers]

and way over-exaggerating the bad.

 

5.60, 5.15, 4.72

 

No exaggeration necessary

[jackie hayes]

So you're tired of your posts being lumped with the rest of the overly-negative s*** yet you're generalizing the way that people are responding...I've read some of the responses too and a lot of them have been valid reasoning for being optimistic and not just "I'm tired of it so stfu"...

 

There's just so many more reasons to be optimistic with this team and I agree with a lot of the other sentiments that have been expressed in terms of wanting to just enjoy this team instead of always fearing the absolute worst and way over-exaggerating the bad. It's sad that some are already predicting playoff failure at this point in the season when it's clear that the team is in a good position yet wayy too early to make playoff predictions. And the majority seems to agree.

 

(But this isn't all directed to you nor am I trying to call you out or anything)

 

Anyways, it's a message board. If you post something on this type of forum, it's meant to be openly discussed, within the accepted parameters.

 

Personally, it seems like some people like to make ridiculous, reactionary, negative doomsday predictions just so they can say "I told you so" if it happens. Sad to me. I'd rather just sit back and enjoy the ride...

Uh, no.

 

I didn't lump everyone in. I got into this when Ribbie said that one avy is basically the same as this thread. That's ridiculous. Then OTHER people brought up the defense that the game threads are negative. Again, what does that have to do with this?

 

I have no problem with (for example) valponick's post, SEALgep's post, zach's. Those are fine. And if someone wants to dismiss it harshly, fine. But bring up a damn argument. But how anyone can not tolerate negativity but still think the 10 millionth skyisfalling quote is clever, is just beyond me.

 

Wtf is so hard about not reading a thread called "White Sox may be in trouble" if seeing anything negative makes you fly off the handle? You talk about open discussion, but the whole point of all these tired chicken little posts is to just kill any discussion. It is pushing the site in a direction that a lot of posters don't want to go, cuz we've seen it elsewhere.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

5.60, 5.15, 4.72

 

No exaggeration necessary

 

Because that's exactly what I was talking about...

 

But since you bring it up, yes, I do think that the way you put it is an overexaggeration:

 

The problem, is our $40 billion rotation. They have sucked some serious dick on the year, and even Contreras is having bad games now.

[southsideirish71]

I don't care if this is labeled as "reactionary" or "negative," but after watching Garcia's weak fastball and weaker curveball I've already written him off for the year.

 

He's not turning anything around (relating to statistics) unless his velocity returns. If it doesn't, forget about receiving value for him. Runners are going wild, curveballs are hanging left/right; he just can't rear back and fire a 94 mph fastball anymore.

 

 

I just got back from tonights game.

 

 

Garcia was throwing 86-88 on his fastball on the gun at the park. He reared back and threw one for 91. But for the most part he was living in the 80s. Bedard was hitting 93-94 most of the time. Bmac was at 90 with his fastball, and Thornton was at 97-98, Cliff Politte was at 90-91.

 

 

Outside of the pitching performance. My only question how outside of a medical issue, what happened to Garcias fastball. He has been a 91-94 guy for years. Then all of a sudden this year poof. Nothing.

 

Its very very wierd.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Wtf is so hard about not reading a thread called "White Sox may be in trouble" if seeing anything negative makes you fly off the handle? You talk about open discussion, but the whole point of all these tired chicken little posts is to just kill any discussion. It is pushing the site in a direction that a lot of posters don't want to go, cuz we've seen it elsewhere.

 

lol ok...So now the site is in doom too...

 

And if your posts have valid, credible information to back up your opinions than the "chicken little" posts aren't meant for you. Rather, it's for those already predicting us getting our asses kicked in the playoffs because there is no possible way that any of our starters will ever show any signs of improvement again...