White Sox may be in trouble

[Milkman delivers]

Because that's exactly what I was talking about...

 

But since you bring it up, yes, I do think that the way you put it is an overexaggeration:

 

What you see as exaggerating, I see as being spot on. And what the hell is overexaggeration? It's that redundant?

[RibbieRubarb]

Uh, no.

 

I didn't lump everyone in. I got into this when Ribbie said that one avy is basically the same as this thread. That's ridiculous.

 

Let's be honest here. I never said that.

I was implying that an avatar featuring Greg Walker with the words "WORTHLESS" was indicitive of the reactionary negativity that is growing here. Frankiensteiner then informed me his avatar was a sarcastic one and I retracted my statement concerning it.

 

Jackie, please tell the full story before accusing me of anything.

[Dick Allen]

The problem to me is people don't like to hear or read opinions that are different than theirs. I'd rather have everyone agree with me, but there's usually very few. Everyone is going to be right and everyone is going to be wrong analyzing baseball. Guys that get paid millions to do it are wrong a lot. Just look at KW last year. He wanted Kendall to catch. Couldn't make the deal. He wanted Jaret Wright in the rotation, couldn't match the Yankees. He wanted Tim Hudson. Beane didn't want McCarthy. He offered Matt Clement a nice sized contract. Boston trumped him. If KW is successful with any of those moves, guys like Iguchi, AJP, Hermanson, may not have been signed, and a championship would probably not have been won. To write off people worried about the pitching staff as being "chicken littles" is short-sighted. The Sox pounding the ball, but getting pounded while on the field is in the words of KW "a movie we have seen before." I'll guarantee you KW is at least as worried about the pitching staff as all the "chicken littles" on this site.

[jackie hayes]

Let's be honest here. I never said that.

I was implying that an avatar featuring Greg Walker with the words "WORTHLESS" was indicitive of the reactionary negativity that is growing here. Frankiensteiner then informed me his avatar was a sarcastic one and I retracted my statement concerning it.

 

Jackie, please tell the full story before accusing me of anything.

You said it was symptomatic of the negativity around here. And obviously you thought this thread was just part and parcel of the rest of the negativity, with that novel chicken little pic on the first page. So I don't see what you're trying to correct here. That you retracted it? Fine, but the point I'm trying to make is that you didn't bother to figure out if it was really symptomatic of anything before throwing it out.

[The Ginger Kid]

When it comes to jumping off a ledge I'm generally the one shoving through the line to be first. But it's real hard to be real worried when my team has won their last 8 series...as in 8 straight.

 

we are a spoiled crew.

[Baines3]

The Tigers don't have a very good record against the top teams. They are bound to go on a tail spin at some point.

[GSH]

Hey Everybody.

 

Ugly few games indeed...but don't worry our White Sox will re-group

[gosox41]

The problem to me is people don't like to hear or read opinions that are different than theirs. I'd rather have everyone agree with me, but there's usually very few. Everyone is going to be right and everyone is going to be wrong analyzing baseball. Guys that get paid millions to do it are wrong a lot. Just look at KW last year. He wanted Kendall to catch. Couldn't make the deal. He wanted Jaret Wright in the rotation, couldn't match the Yankees. He wanted Tim Hudson. Beane didn't want McCarthy. He offered Matt Clement a nice sized contract. Boston trumped him. If KW is successful with any of those moves, guys like Iguchi, AJP, Hermanson, may not have been signed, and a championship would probably not have been won. To write off people worried about the pitching staff as being "chicken littles" is short-sighted. The Sox pounding the ball, but getting pounded while on the field is in the words of KW "a movie we have seen before." I'll guarantee you KW is at least as worried about the pitching staff as all the "chicken littles" on this site.

 

 

Good post. People shouldn't get jumped on because of some concerns. Last I checked, the White Sox pithcing staff as a whole has let up more runs then last year. Does that mean I think the team is done? Heck no. But it is cause for concern. At least this years team has a better offense.

 

Right now the Sox have 2 starters who have ERA's over 5 and one (Garcia) who is really close and may be over that number after tonight. We are 1/2 through the season and I think this team will make the playoffs. Here's a statement someone will twist around: If the Sox starting pitching goes into October pitching like they have the first 1/2 of the year, we're not going to be around long in the playoffs.

 

That being said I have confidence that Garland will get on track. I also think Garcia will be all right. But Coop needs to work a miracle with Vazquez to get him going.

 

 

 

Bob

[TitoMB345]

I got it! Let's sign Jose Canseco! He's the answer to all our problems!

 

Sorry, I just think its a joke this guy is playing ball again, even if it is just an indepedant team like the San Diego Surfdogs.

[VAfan]

First off, no one can label me a pessimist on this or any other Sox site.

 

But I am realistic. And I have a bad feeling about Minnesota. After today, they are 6-1/2 games behind us, and we're not even to the half way point. That is a lead that is not safe by any means unless the Sox start pitching the ball like we are capable of.

 

The Sox have to start pitching the ball like we are capable of. If our second-half team ERA is 4.00 or below, we'll win 100+ games and the division. If it stays where it was in June -- which was accumulated mostly against weak-hitting teams -- at 4.74 -- it is going to be a dogfight to the end.

 

The third team in the AL Central might have the third best record in baseball at the end of the season and be left at home. I damn well don't want that team to be the White Sox.

 

So let me finish this post by resurrecting some Sox haikus I posted last year in May on a thread someone started on the MLB Sox board. They are a testament to winning baseball -- which starts with pitching:

 

Great Ozzie man say,

Pitching and defense the way,

To World Series play.

 

Ya gotta believe

In this torrid White Sox team

To go all the way!

 

Lee for Podsednik?

Add AJ and El Duque

Play Ozzie ball. Win!

 

Kenny man, he say

Power ball is not the way

Go-go Sox are best

 

Nineteen seventeen?

White Sox fans can't wait to see

Champs at Comiskey

 

Thirty-fifth and Shields

U.S. Cellular team fields

Baseball's supreme team

 

All the way this year

Eighty-eight year jinx over

White Sox are World Champs

 

Bosox won last year

Now it's time for the ChiSox

To wear Series crown

 

and, lastly, one that I hope also applies this year

 

Don't fret White Sox fans

This team is primed to win

Into October

 

GO WHITE SOX!!!

[SoxHawk1980]

Some fans just don't like hearing anything negative about their team. Because they want everything to be good, they don't want to hear anyone saying that everything might not be great. They look at the positives and ignore the negatives. They prefer to just assume that everything will turn out fine in the end.

 

Some other fans like to look at the team honestly and realistically and recognize when there are problems. They are called realists. Some realists aren't too bright and provide poor analysis, but they are merely trying to honestly evaluate the team. For some of us, rah-rah cheering isn't enough. We like to think a little.

 

The reality is that this is a very good team that also has some problems. Some spots in the lineup are almost automatic outs. There are some holes in the bullpen. The pitching rotation has two starters who have been good so far this season and 3 who have been bad in varying degrees. That is a real problem.

 

To those who say no one should worry because the Sox have a great record, or because we've won the last 8 series or, etc., I respond:

 

1. Having a great regular season isn't enough. We don't want to just get to the playoff somehow. If we want to win the WS again (which should be the only goal) we can't have a lot of big holes on the team. And this team has too many holes right now.

 

2. We are in a division with the team with the best record in baseball, and we are 2.5 games behind them. So far, the holes we've had on this team have prevented us from playing well enough to be on top in this division. If we want to win the division, we're going to have to get better, and that means filling holes.

 

3. And then there's the surging Twins...

[CWSGuy406]

Veteran team, veteran top 2 pitchers with a 57 hr hitter. Big difference.

 

1.) Veteran team or not, the offense on that Diamondback team, for the most part, sucked. Luis Gonzalez was good, Reggie Sanders and Mark Grace were decent. They had a pretty good bench, which helped, but for their starters, they had three above average hitters.

 

The Twins are a much more well-rounded team, and as of a couple weeks ago, got better at three different positions, without even mentioning the pitching. The left side of the infield just got a HUGE upgrade, replacing Castro with Bartlett and Batista with Cuddyer. Jason Kubel is finally healthy, and is hitting the way he was pre-injury. Morneau is flashing his power potential. Need I mention Mauer?

 

2.) So, Johan Santana is going to flip the calander, see it's September, and start to suck? Or, wait -- Liriano is going to do that, right? 'Cause he's a rookie? Is that what you're saying? No real good reasoning, just that their young, and don't have that mystical "veteran presence"?

 

Ha. Ha ha.

 

The kid made the point that two pitchers (starters, as he was pointing to Santana and Liriano) can't carry a team. They most certainly can. It helps when you have a guy challenging to hit .400, a decent back-of-the-rotation, a good bullpen, and a decent overall lineup.

 

*Yeah, and before I get jumped all over, having people say "so you'd rather have the Twins team?", no, I'm not saying that.

 

2) Contreras and Buehrle are capable of being as dominant as Schilling and Johnson were in that season,

 

First off, I was making an off-hand comparison between the Twins and the D-Backs, not the Sox.

 

Second off -- as much as I love Mark Buehrle and Jose Contreras -- neither are going to touch Randy Johnson's 184 ERA+ from that year (not to mention his 372 strikeouts). Heck, I doubt either get to Curt Schilling's 154 ERA+.

Edited July 4, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[Rowand44]

1.) Veteran team or not, the offense on that Diamondback team, for the most part, sucked. Luis Gonzalez was good, Reggie Sanders and Mark Grace were decent. They had a pretty good bench, which helped, but for their starters, they had three above average hitters.

 

The Twins are a much more well-rounded team, and as of a couple weeks ago, got better at three different positions, without even mentioning the pitching. The left side of the infield just got a HUGE upgrade, replacing Castro with Bartlett and Batista with Cuddyer. Jason Kubel is finally healthy, and is hitting the way he was pre-injury. Morneau is flashing his power potential. Need I mention Mauer?

 

2.) So, Johan Santana is going to flip the calander, see it's September, and start to suck? Or, wait -- Liriano is going to do that, right? 'Cause he's a rookie? Is that what you're saying? No real good reasoning, just that their young, and don't have that mystical "veteran presence"?

 

Ha. Ha ha.

 

The kid made the point that two pitchers (starters, as he was pointing to Santana and Liriano) can't carry a team. They most certainly can. It helps when you have a guy challenging to hit .400, a decent back-of-the-rotation, a good bullpen, and a decent overall lineup.

 

*Yeah, and before I get jumped all over, having people say "so you'd rather have the Twins team?", no, I'm not saying that.

First off, I was making an off-hand comparison between the Twins and the D-Backs, not the Sox.

The Twins are going to the playoffs one way or another.

[jackie hayes]

1.) Veteran team or not, the offense on that Diamondback team, for the most part, sucked. Luis Gonzalez was good, Reggie Sanders and Mark Grace were decent. They had a pretty good bench, which helped, but for their starters, they had three above average hitters.

 

The Twins are a much more well-rounded team, and as of a couple weeks ago, got better at three different positions, without even mentioning the pitching. The left side of the infield just got a HUGE upgrade, replacing Castro with Bartlett and Batista with Cuddyer. Jason Kubel is finally healthy, and is hitting the way he was pre-injury. Morneau is flashing his power potential. Need I mention Mauer?

 

2.) So, Johan Santana is going to flip the calander, see it's September, and start to suck? Or, wait -- Liriano is going to do that, right? 'Cause he's a rookie? Is that what you're saying? No real good reasoning, just that their young, and don't have that mystical "veteran presence"?

 

Ha. Ha ha.

 

The kid made the point that two pitchers (starters, as he was pointing to Santana and Liriano) can't carry a team. They most certainly can. It helps when you have a guy challenging to hit .400, a decent back-of-the-rotation, a good bullpen, and a decent overall lineup.

 

*Yeah, and before I get jumped all over, having people say "so you'd rather have the Twins team?", no, I'm not saying that.

First off, I was making an off-hand comparison between the Twins and the D-Backs, not the Sox.

 

Second off -- as much as I love Mark Buehrle and Jose Contreras -- neither are going to touch Randy Johnson's 184 ERA+ from that year (not to mention his 372 strikeouts). Heck, I doubt either get to Curt Schilling's 154 ERA+.

I don't think 2 pitchers can carry a team through the season (they had one of Batista's good years, which helped a lot). The playoffs, maybe. But not the 80-odd games left, especially not in this division. 92-70 isn't gonna cut it in the AL this year.

 

The bigger worry is that the Twins have those two, and then they have Radke, who will throw better the 2nd half. Then out of Silva and Bonser, you just gotta hit on one. I'm thinking, maybe just hoping, that they're far enough out to make the point moot.

[elrockinMT]

Pitching usually gets better as the season goes along and I am talking the whole enchilada of a season here. The Sox have 5 proven starters and I have to believe they will finally get it together in a consistent manner and with our offense win a lot of games and overtake the Tigers. It seems right now that you never know whether Jekyl or Hyde is going to show up on any given night. Buerhle gives up 11 runs and tonight Garcia pitches good for 4 or 5 inings and then falls apart. Vazquez continually gives up a lot of runs in one or 2 bad innings, but K's a lot of hitters so his stuff can be good during the game. He must lose his concentration. The amount of homers our pitchers give up is troubling too. We score a lot of runs in the first inning only to see the pitchers give ithem right back up the next innings. Lots of 2 strike hits by the opposition. There's more, but the point I am trying to make is the pitching just hasn't been consistent and tough as nails like last year.

[DBAHO]

I don't think 2 pitchers can carry a team through the season (they had one of Batista's good years, which helped a lot). The playoffs, maybe. But not the 80-odd games left, especially not in this division. 92-70 isn't gonna cut it in the AL this year.

 

The bigger worry is that the Twins have those two, and then they have Radke, who will throw better the 2nd half. Then out of Silva and Bonser, you just gotta hit on one. I'm thinking, maybe just hoping, that they're far enough out to make the point moot.

Radke's been very good for the past few starts, looks like he's turnin it around. I think Scott Baker will probably be back up for Bonser by the end of the season as well, although Gardy really never gave him a chance in the 1st place.

 

The Twins do worry me quite a bit as well, but it is dependent on their offense. Can Morneau keep hittin like he has for the past 2 months? Can Bartlett continue to put up some good splits etc.

 

As for us, I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that the starting pitching is not where we would like it to be right now. But it's not a hopeless situation that should all cause us to mass panic. All 5 starters at some point this season have shown they have what it takes to dominate and put up great performances.

 

It's vitally important at the ASB, Coop sits down with each of em, points out what they need to do to improve (great list by SSI71), and hopefully they can do that. The good thing is, is that when it most counts, these guys have done the job before, and hopefully they can do it again.

[Twins Win]

I would just like to make a couple points.

 

Every forum including the Twins one I'm active in has negative posters. There are even some negative now about the Twins and Mauer over there.

 

The Twins are not the same team they were at the beginning. Personally I thought Liriano should have started at the beginning of the season and that Kubel should have also been a starter for my beloved Twins at the start of the season. There have also been other changes. I really don't see them falling apart. They started this streak with a sweep of the Red Sox. Yes they did play a lot of games with the crappy NL Central but if you look at most of those scores the games were not close.

 

As for Liriano. I've followed this kid pretty heavily since last season. Myself along with a lot of other people believe that he is the best pitcher on the Twin's staff. Read comments about him from batters after the game. They're unable to pickup his pitches, they all look the same. The true test will come when he starts facing teams for the second time. Then we'll see just how good this kid is. He leads the ML in era with a 1.99 era. It doesn't get much better than that.

 

With that all being said, I'm looking forward to an exciting finish in this division. July 24-26 will be a fun series and I personally can't wait. Until then good luck to the Sox.

[jackie hayes]

Why would you wish us luck? I'm hoping you guys crash and burn, myself. And the Kitties. But I do hope you have a lovely day.

 

As for Liriano, well...yeah. Was anyone questioning that?

[shawnhillegas]

I would just like to make a couple points.

 

Every forum including the Twins one I'm active in has negative posters. There are even some negative now about the Twins and Mauer over there.

 

The Twins are not the same team they were at the beginning. Personally I thought Liriano should have started at the beginning of the season and that Kubel should have also been a starter for my beloved Twins at the start of the season. There have also been other changes. I really don't see them falling apart. They started this streak with a sweep of the Red Sox. Yes they did play a lot of games with the crappy NL Central but if you look at most of those scores the games were not close.

 

As for Liriano. I've followed this kid pretty heavily since last season. Myself along with a lot of other people believe that he is the best pitcher on the Twin's staff. Read comments about him from batters after the game. They're unable to pickup his pitches, they all look the same. The true test will come when he starts facing teams for the second time. Then we'll see just how good this kid is. He leads the ML in era with a 1.99 era. It doesn't get much better than that.

 

With that all being said, I'm looking forward to an exciting finish in this division. July 24-26 will be a fun series and I personally can't wait. Until then good luck to the Sox.

 

 

I have a huge man crush on Liriano, but I do think hes the best pitcher in the league.

Your management may have cost you that playoff spot with stupid decisions involving Liriano, Lohse, Kubel, Batista and Rondell White. That, you should be negative about.

[Twins Win]

Why would you wish us luck? I'm hoping you guys crash and burn, myself. And the Kitties. But I do hope you have a lovely day.

 

As for Liriano, well...yeah. Was anyone questioning that?

 

 

I was wishing you luck because I was just being nice. I'm not going to get too excited about the way the Twins have played until they're about 2 games back.

[jackie hayes]

I was wishing you luck because I was just being nice. I'm not going to get too excited about the way the Twins have played until they're about 2 games back.

I know, just being hard on you.

 

Though I do still hope you lose like the 69 Cubs.

[Dan]

[VAfan]

Yesterday's game was more like it. Apparently Coop worked with Contreras on his arm angles during a side session at Wrigley, and it paid off. Had Joe Crede not gone out, there would have been two fewer hits, as he would have gobbled up balls that befuddled Mackowiak (who should sub at second if both Iguchi and Crede are out -- at least he'll have longer reaction time there).

 

When Contreras is dominant, our pitching staff has a chance to be dominant. It sure would be nice to see yesterday's outing kick off a week of great pitching leading up to the AS break.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

 

:headshake

[Dick Allen]

Yesterday's game was more like it. Apparently Coop worked with Contreras on his arm angles during a side session at Wrigley, and it paid off. Had Joe Crede not gone out, there would have been two fewer hits, as he would have gobbled up balls that befuddled Mackowiak (who should sub at second if both Iguchi and Crede are out -- at least he'll have longer reaction time there).

 

When Contreras is dominant, our pitching staff has a chance to be dominant. It sure would be nice to see yesterday's outing kick off a week of great pitching leading up to the AS break.

I think there was 1 play Crede most likely would have made. The other one I'm pretty sure you are talking about was tough. Mackowiak did make one really nice play. I think that's the first time he's played third this year. Its amazing every ball seemed to go his direction as soon as he entered the game.