I'm pretty much done with Javier Vazquez.

[hammerhead johnson]

Vaz for Young = Brolio for Brock

 

That's hilarious!

 

Young has yet to play in the majors, and I seriously doubt that you've ever seen him play (color me presumptuous), but we can just go ahead and put him down for 3000 hits and 900 stolen bases, correct?

 

[chitownsportsfan]

That's hilarious!

 

Young has yet to play in the majors, and I seriously doubt that you've ever seen him play (color me presumptuous), but we can just go ahead and put him down for 3000 hits and 900 stolen bases, correct?

 

 

He is tearing up AAA this year so far. I posted a comment over at SSS that he'll be at least a league average CF for the next 8 years and one guy got all pissed and said how could I presume that.

 

Um, maybe 'cause Young was rated the best prospy in the Sox last year and BA had him at #6 in MLB at one point?

[BigSqwert]

When I read the title I thought Steve9347 was breaking up with him or something.

[hammerhead johnson]

He is tearing up AAA this year so far. I posted a comment over at SSS that he'll be at least a league average CF for the next 8 years and one guy got all pissed and said how could I presume that.

 

Um, maybe 'cause Young was rated the best prospy in the Sox last year and BA had him at #6 in MLB at one point?

 

That's fine, I was just responding to this comparison:

 

Vaz for Young = Brolio for Brock

 

But to address what you're saying, Travis Lee was the #1 prospect in all of baseball at one point. Corey Patterson was the #1 prospect too. Plenty of fans had them down as hall of famers, despite the fact that they had never played a single game in the majors. People are awfully presumptuous when it comes to minor league baseball players. There is nothing that we can know for certain until we've had a chance to observe them on the ML level for several years.

 

I get ticked off when I see people trying to make definitive assessments on the strength of jack f***ing s***.

[Guest JimH]

Chris Young is hitting .268 with 12 HR's in 250 AB's for Tucson AAA, so he is hardly tearing up Triple A.

 

Nonetheless I think he's a really good prospect, his hand imjury has probably slowed him down this year and personally I believe he'll be a productive major leaguer. As for how good he'll be, it's way too early to speculate, for me anyways.

[RockRaines]

Chris Young is hitting .268 with 12 HR's in 250 AB's for Tucson AAA, so he is hardly tearing up Triple A.

 

Nonetheless I think he's a really good prospect, his hand imjury has probably slowed him down this year and personally I believe he'll be a productive major leaguer. As for how good he'll be, it's way too early to speculate, for me anyways.

Fact is, what f***ing good would he do for our team this year? Would he have won 9 games? Pitched around 200 innings? I dont f***ing think so. Some people on this board have serious hard ons for prospects with no legit reason.

[Wedge]

Fact is, what f***ing good would he do for our team this year? Would he have won 9 games? Pitched around 200 innings? I dont f***ing think so. Some people on this board have serious hard ons for prospects with no legit reason.

 

I agree. Plus, we have Anderson who I think many here are content believing will turn into a very solid Major Leaguer who plays great defense.

 

I'm glad Vazquez will eat up 200 innings. I think when your starters gobble up close to 1000 innings, you're in really great shape and it really helps out the bullpen. Plus, there's always the possiblity for a turnaround, although I'm not hopeful. I understand the "Contreras turned it around, why can't Vazquez" argument, but two things give me doubts: 1) many of us forget that Contreras had a very successful history while in Cuba, something that I don't think you can argue Vazquez had. Contreras became successful again when he started pitching like he had in Cuba, but something tells me that even if Vazquez returns to his Montreal mindset, that he won't enjoy the same kind of turnaround. 2) As good as Coop is, can we really expect to catch lightning in a bottle, twice in a row?

 

It's sort of sad, but if Vazquez puts up a 4.5 ERA the second half, I'd be ecstatic.

[southsider2k5]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3786

 

I would have more faith in a turnaround for a guy that put together at least 4 good seasons in MLB, vs a guy that was good in a league far inferior to MLB. I am not sure why a guy with those 4 good years is less likely to turn it around vs someone who had zero proven history in MLB, but I would be curious to hear why you would think that...

[Wedge]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3786

 

I would have more faith in a turnaround for a guy that put together at least 4 good seasons in MLB, vs a guy that was good in a league far inferior to MLB. I am not sure why a guy with those 4 good years is less likely to turn it around vs someone who had zero proven history in MLB, but I would be curious to hear why you would think that...

 

First of all, I'm not sure that I would consider Cuba "far inferior". Perhaps it is not a good metric, but they won the Silver medal in 2000 and Gold in the 2004 Olympics. You're right that it is probably not up to the caliber of the US Major Leagues, but to accomplish that is pretty impressive and not "far inferior". Also, let's not forget he put up some outstanding numbers while in Cuba. In 2001 he went 13-4 with a 1.76 ERA and 149 strikeouts. Also, you may recall an outing he had of the Cuba National team against Baltimore in 1999 where he had an 8 IP, 0 ER, 10 K performance.

 

Additionally, I think you should account for El Duque in your calculations. El Duque had some outstanding years in the AL and had previously put up some comparable years to Contreras when in Cuba.

 

Finally, a big spark of Contreras's turnaround was dropping the arm angles, which I believe is how he had pitched in Cuba, but not when he was in New York and early on in Chicago. As much as something mental (in terms of confidence, family concerns, getting ripped in the press), there was something mechanical.

 

Juxtapose this with Vazquez: a million dollar arm/10 cent head who does not seem to be suffering from mechanical issues or mental issues that are not the norm. If there's something that's going to change with the guy, it's not his throwing, but the mindset. All we have is 3-4 decent (not dominant, which Contreras had in Cuba) seasons in Montreal (I don't know much of the history there, maybe he was the best pitcher on a bad team?). Given history and what we have seen out of Vazquez so far, I just think it's unreasonable to expect a Contreras like turnaround. Perhaps he can put up a decent second half, but I just don't envision him becoming the dominant, unbeatable workhorse that Contreras has become since the ASG Break last season.

[shawnhillegas]

I don't think those guys had the best offense in baseball behind them. They weren't traded for a young stud and another decent reliever as well. And they sure as hell weren't making 10.5 million dollars.

 

Sorry, try again.

 

 

STOP BRINGING UP MONEY! we spent the money, we had the money to spend, and if you sit back right now and you have that 8 million dollars back in your pocket and BMAC in, what is that magical move you are going to make with that extra money? Did you want to sign Bobby Howry instead? Would that be the magical signing that makes us the perfect team, or are you just upset because you wanted Jerry to keep that 10 million in his pocket this year?

Edited July 7, 2006 by shawnhillegas

[Whitewashed in '05]

I don't think those guys had the best offense in baseball behind them. They weren't traded for a young stud and another decent reliever as well. And they sure as hell weren't making 10.5 million dollars.

 

Sorry, try again.

When Wright won 14 in 02 the sox were around the top in runs scored. They might not have been consistent, but they could bomb the s*** out of a pitcher.

 

Anyone know what Wright's been up to since he's had the surgery?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Vaz isin't doing very well lately at all but I think saying you're "done" with him is a little premature. Like some other posters said earlier on in this thread, everybody was down on Contreras early last season and now he's our most dominating starter. Give him at least a full season ( especially the playoffs ) with us and working with Coop before passing final judgement.

[Dick Allen]

When Wright won 14 in 02 the sox were around the top in runs scored. They might not have been consistent, but they could bomb the s*** out of a pitcher.

 

Anyone know what Wright's been up to since he's had the surgery?

I think he had shoulder and elbow surgery. Wright that year had an ERA of 5.18 and pitched 196 innings. The team was nowhere near as good as it is now. Magglio had a huge season, but Frank only hit .252, CLee .264, Paulie hit 27 homers, Mark Johnson and Jeff Leifer each batted over 200 times. I was in NY on my birthday that year, and Wright shut down the Yankees. Leifer hit one halfway up the upper deck in RF off the Rocket. Sox win. As far as Vazquez goes, pitchers who get almost 8 runs of support per start are usually going to have good records. Personally, I don't think his 9-4 record is as impressive as other pitchers with similar wins and losses totals. I think he's had the lead in all but 1 start. I'm thankful he won't be pitching against the Yankees or Red Sox. I also think this "working with Coop" stuff has to stop. The guy is not a miracle worker. If KW thought it would take a year of "working with Coop" to get Vazquez to be consistently dominant, he wouldn't have made the deal. He would have spent the money and/or players on alternatives.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I think he had shoulder and elbow surgery. Wright that year had an ERA of 5.18 and pitched 196 innings. The team was nowhere near as good as it is now. Magglio had a huge season, but Frank only hit .252, CLee .264, Paulie hit 27 homers, Mark Johnson and Jeff Leifer each batted over 200 times. I was in NY on my birthday that year, and Wright shut down the Yankees. Leifer hit one halfway up the upper deck in RF off the Rocket. Sox win. As far as Vazquez goes, pitchers who get almost 8 runs of support per start are usually going to have good records. Personally, I don't think his 9-4 record is as impressive as other pitchers with similar wins and losses totals. I think he's had the lead in all but 1 start. I'm thankful he won't be pitching against the Yankees or Red Sox. I also think this "working with Coop" stuff has to stop. The guy is not a miracle worker. If KW thought it would take a year of "working with Coop" to get Vazquez to be consistently dominant, he wouldn't have made the deal. He would have spent the money and/or players on alternatives.

 

 

Only reason I think he made that deal is because I believe he didn't think BMAC was quite ready to enter the rotation and wanted a proven guy in the 5th slot to avoid the whole roulette wheel thing we had back in 2004.

[Hangar18]

You are very ignorant if you think we got this guy to be "just a number 5 starter." We are paying him WAY too much money to be a #5. At 10.5 million, as I saw elsewhere, he should be damn well pitching like a #1 or #2.

 

 

 

Javy is Earning #2 Starter Money. Hes pitching like a #6 starter however. Hes too inconsistent since he got here, but the only reason hes still part of the rotation is the fact he can eat innings, which is important considering our middle relief.

[Dick Allen]

Vaz isin't doing very well lately at all but I think saying you're "done" with him is a little premature. Like some other posters said earlier on in this thread, everybody was down on Contreras early last season and now he's our most dominating starter. Give him at least a full season ( especially the playoffs ) with us and working with Coop before passing final judgement.

I agree he's nowhere near "done". There are a lot of pitchers that can't hold his jock. He's just mediocre. He's pitching like a #5 starter. As long as he doesn't blow out his arm or elbow, he'll always be able to find a spot on a major league roster. Unless he really kicks it into gear, he's days making $12 million a year will be over with the expiration of his contract.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I agree he's nowhere near "done". There are a lot of pitchers that can't hold his jock. He's just mediocre. He's pitching like a #5 starter. As long as he doesn't blow out his arm or elbow, he'll always be able to find a spot on a major league roster. Unless he really kicks it into gear, he's days making $12 million a year will be over with the expiration of his contract.

 

 

I defenitely agree that he's not performing anywhere near on a level commensurate with his salary. I think that's why a lot of people are on him a lot more than they otherwise would be.

[Dick Allen]

I defenitely agree that he's not performing anywhere near on a level commensurate with his salary. I think that's why a lot of people are on him a lot more than they otherwise would be.

You're right. If he were making $4 million-$5 million, and was expected to pitch like a #5 starter, there wouldn't be an issue with him. If the Sox still had Duque, and he posted the identical numbers, we would be very satisfied. Vazquez is a guy that leaves you always wanting more.