I'm pretty much done with Javier Vazquez.

[hi8is]

*COUGH* JOSE CONTRERAS *COUGH*

nuffsed.

 

EDIT: i clicked fast reply too early i see.

 

i dont care if you "cant compare them" - what i see is two pitchers who their only issues were mental. Coop fixed one, why the hell not try and fix another. This will be a great thread to pull back later when Javy DOES win a big game. And he will.

 

I guarantee he will.

he won today =P

[Misplaced_Sox]

Javier has great stuff maybe Coop can play Dr. Joyce Brothers and talk him being better.... AJ should wallop him when he curls

 

But he throws some great stuff

[Big Hurtin]

did this really warrant its own thread?

 

Did this?

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52083

 

Are you the arbiter of what players can have negative threads started about them?

[whitesoxin']

9-4 is not a bad record. Just saying. Sox are playing great and our number five starter is 9-4. Look at it that way. Do you remember Danny Wright? How about Schoenweis? Josh Stewert? Who do you like as your NUMBER FIVE starter?

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Javy will do better than this, he is inconsistent as hell. He could very well be lights out his next five starts. We just have to hope he is on a roll come september-october.

[ZoomSlowik]

He was? Were you watching a tivo'd game from earlier in the season?

 

Compared to the past, yeah. He wasn't 3-0 or 3-1 on every hitter in the lineup.

 

God, he only allowed 5 hits and 1 walk. People make it sound like he allowed 9 runs again...

[Kalapse]

Compared to the past, yeah. He wasn't 3-0 or 3-1 on every hitter in the lineup.

 

God, he only allowed 5 hits and 1 walk. People make it sound like he allowed 9 runs again...

I took the liberty of breaking down the outing pitch by pitch, you can take away from it whatever you want.

Pitch by Pitch Breakdown

 

1.) Roberts: 0-1, 0-2, 1-2, 2-2, GO6-3

2.) Mora: 1-0, FO9

3.) Tejada: 0-1, 1-1, GO5-3

 

---------

0H, 0BB, 0ER

---------

 

4.) Conine: 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, 1B

5.) Hernandez: 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, K

6.) Patterson: 1-0, 2-0, FO7

7.) Lopez: 1-0, 2-0, FO7

 

---------

1H, 0BB, 0ER

---------

 

8.) Millar: 1-0, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, BB

9.) Fahey: 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 1B

1.) Roberts: 0-1, 1-1 E4

2.) Mora: 0-1, 1-1, 1-2, GO5-4

3.) Tejada: 1-0, 2B

4.) Conine: 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, GO6-3

5.) Hernandez: FO8

 

---------

2H, 1BB, 3R/1ER

---------

 

6.) Patterson: 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, 3-2, K

7.) Lopez: 0-1, FO9

8.) Millar: 0-1, 0-2, GO5-3

 

---------

0H, 0BB, 0R

---------

 

9.) Fahey: 0-1, 0-2, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, GO1-3

1.) Roberts: 0-1, 0-2, 1-2, FO8

2.) Mora: 0-1, 0-2, 1-2, FO8

 

---------

0H, 0BB, 0R

---------

 

3.) Tejada: 2B

4.) Conine: 1-0, GO4-3

5.) Hernandez: 0-1, 0-2, HBP *OUCH*

6.) Patterson: 1-0, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, 1B

*VAZQUEZ REPLACED BY RISKE*

 

---------

2H, 1HBP, 0BB, 2R

---------

 

Final Line:

5.1 IP | 5 H | 5 R | 3 ER | 1 BB | 2 SO | 0 HR

Edited July 7, 2006 by Kalapse

[Jordan4life_2007]

Compared to the past, yeah. He wasn't 3-0 or 3-1 on every hitter in the lineup.

 

God, he only allowed 5 hits and 1 walk. People make it sound like he allowed 9 runs again...

 

That's because Ozzie was smart and yanked his ass in the 5th inning.

[VAfan]

We are an impatient bunch, aren't we? 9-4 and the guys' ready for the scrap heap.

 

I've criticized Javy myself, but thought he at least battled tonight. After the 3 run inning, in which BA proved his worth, he settled down very nicely and blew away the O's the next time through the order. Then Tejada got a double and there was another hit and Javy was rightfully gone. But Riske allowed a hit to let the last run in. Anyway, I thought it was something to build on. A middling start rather than a horrible one. All we really need is middling starts for him to win ballgames.

[Jordan4life_2007]

We are an impatient bunch, aren't we? 9-4 and the guys' ready for the scrap heap.

 

I've criticized Javy myself, but thought he at least battled tonight. After the 3 run inning, in which BA proved his worth, he settled down very nicely and blew away the O's the next time through the order. Then Tejada got a double and there was another hit and Javy was rightfully gone. But Riske allowed a hit to let the last run in. Anyway, I thought it was something to build on. A middling start rather than a horrible one. All we really need is middling starts for him to win ballgames.

 

I just hope the Sox can continue to provide him with ridiculous run-support.

[ZoomSlowik]

That's because Ozzie was smart and yanked his ass in the 5th inning.

 

Even assuming both of those guys got in, that still only 6, with two of those being unearned. Plus he was still throwing strikes.

 

I just hope the Sox can continue to provide him with ridiculous run-support.

 

His run support numbers don't have that much to do with his win total. Only one of his wins came in a non-quality start.

Edited July 7, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[TitoMB345]

9-4 is not a bad record. Just saying. Sox are playing great and our number five starter is 9-4. Look at it that way. Do you remember Danny Wright? How about Schoenweis? Josh Stewert? Who do you like as your NUMBER FIVE starter?

You are very ignorant if you think we got this guy to be "just a number 5 starter." We are paying him WAY too much money to be a #5. At 10.5 million, as I saw elsewhere, he should be damn well pitching like a #1 or #2.

[DBAHO]

People just need to keep the faith, like some of us did with Jon Garland when he was struggling.

 

Tonight was a step forward for Javy although he only threw just over 5 innings. He's shown he can produce at a very high level. He's just got to cut down on the mental mistakes and throw the right pitch at the right time, which is what Coop needs to stress to him.

[Capn12]

Well actually....Javy WAS penciled in as our #5 starter. With Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Garland in front of him. Does he make too much money for a #5 guy? Absolutely. But I can't fault KW for making that deal too much. On paper, our starting 5 looked like a hellacious rotation at the start of the season. Its just too bad that guys like Garcia, Javy, and lately to a lesser extent, Garland, haven't had any consistency at all.

[RME JICO]

The whole Vazquez deal was dependent on how well he performed. The Sox gave away a ton to get him, and are paying him a ton to be a mediocre pitcher at best.

 

If McCarthy was starting, Viz was out of the pen, with Young still in the system, the Sox would be better off at this point. There are a ton of pitchers with better stats than Vazquez, and most earn a lot less than he does.

 

I haven't lost faith in him yet, but he needs to string together a couple of solid starts like Jon has.

Edited July 7, 2006 by RME JICO

[KeithFranklin]

Ahh remember the good old days when the 5th starter meant an immediate loss 90% of the time.

 

I for one couldnt care less about how much the 5th starter is paid. Filling the park, concessions and merchandising now that the Sox are World champs easily pays for it and the Sox front office know it.

[Guest JimH]

I for one couldnt care less about how much the 5th starter is paid. Filling the park, concessions and merchandising now that the Sox are World champs easily pays for it and the Sox front office know it.

 

What a good post, nicely stated.

[southsider2k5]

You can't compare the two at all. Contreras came from Cuba, changed his style and started throwing strikes. Vazquez doesn't have acclimation problems, he's been around and mediocre for a while, and he already throws strikes. Unfortunately the Sox will be stuck with Vazquez this year and next, and there most likely is no chance they would offer him arbitration to pitch like he has. Maybe they will give his money to Buerhle. If Young fulfills his promise, its a worse trade than Todd Ritchie.

 

Actually I would say they are very comparable. They both have excellent stuff, but have had problems with the mental approach to pitching, and both got to the point where they seem to have lost their confidence in their stuff. Now Contreras seems to have experimented more with his arm angles and approach than Vazquez has, but I think there are a lot of similarities, and I think the solution lies in much the same place, where the staff needs to take away the thinking from Javy, just like they did Jose, and get him to just go out and throw the damned ball where they tell him to.

[Dick Allen]

9-4 is not a bad record. Just saying. Sox are playing great and our number five starter is 9-4. Look at it that way. Do you remember Danny Wright? How about Schoenweis? Josh Stewert? Who do you like as your NUMBER FIVE starter?

Danny Wright won 14 games in 2002 with a team not as good as this one. He made nowhere near $12 million a year. I believe Vazquez has had the lead in every game he's pitched except 1. Vazquez might be the White Sox #5 starter, but KW and Ozzie didn't send Chris Young to Arizona along with Vizcaino for Vazquez to pitch LIKE a #5 starter. People around here blast the Tigers, saying they haven't beat any good teams, but then they look at Vazquez and talk about his dominating games against the Royals. Vazquez has a nice record, but his performance has been very dissappointing. If KW thought he was getting a guy to throw 6 innings and have an ERA over 5.00, he would have held on to Duque, Vizcaino and Young.

 

Ahh remember the good old days when the 5th starter meant an immediate loss 90% of the time.

 

I for one couldnt care less about how much the 5th starter is paid. Filling the park, concessions and merchandising now that the Sox are World champs easily pays for it and the Sox front office know it.

The problem with paying him all that money is that means that money isn't available for other needs. I wouldn't care what they paid him if he earned it. I think he's been mediocre, just like he has most of his career, but I do disagree with anyone who claims he's dogging it.

[TLAK]

Here is how Javier is doing compared to the rest of the starting 5. The numbers are: # of games with an era indicated in the Game ERA column, W-L record and Average Innings pitched in those games. Having Javier on the team is like dating the best looking girl in school, on a good night it's fantastic but when she is bad it's very expensive and frustrating.

 

I bashed KW and the trade when it was made and remain convinced that the White Sox could have done as well or better with Brandon McCarthy starting, keeping Vizcaino and Young. Then using El Duke either in Brandon's present role or trading him for a reliever should he have insisted on starting. The DBacks got Jorge Julio for him, a 27 year old righty with a 3.66 ERA 1.14 WHIP who would have fit in quite nicely along side Viz. We would have been spared the Logan, Montero, Nelson, Tracey ordeal.

 

Water under the dam.

[Milkman delivers]

I don't know about lack of effort, but I decided a while back that this guy will never be a good pitcher. He just is just a poor pitcher. All the talent in the world, but he's got no idea how to pitcher. A thrower is what he is.

 

It's gotten to the point with him that I cannot even watch him. For the last few games he's pitched, I have made sure to do something else while we're on defense.

 

He's pretty much a more expensive El Duque. He throws about 100 pitches through 5 innings, never gets into the 7th inning, gives up a lot of runs with a 5+ ERA, is a strain on the bullpen, and is not fun to watch.

[elrockinMT]

I am frustrated with Vazquez too, but he has great stuff. Based on the story I read today in the Sun-Times I would think he is frustrated too. There is some reason he is not as sharp as we saw earlier or pitching up to the potential he has, but there is no reason to quit on him. Maybe a kick in the butt is what he needs?

[tonyho7476]

Don't we all know that it takes Cooper half a season to fix these underachievers? He'll be lights out for the 2nd half. Book it.

[Rowand44]

I am frustrated with Vazquez too, but he has great stuff. Based on the story I read today in the Sun-Times I would think he is frustrated too. There is some reason he is not as sharp as we saw earlier or pitching up to the potential he has, but there is no reason to quit on him. Maybe a kick in the butt is what he needs?

He needs something positive on the mound to happen for him to get it going. He's such an emotional pitcher that he more than anyone needs to feel confident out there for him to pitch well.

[Guest JimH]

I bashed KW and the trade when it was made and remain convinced that the White Sox could have done as well or better with Brandon McCarthy starting, keeping Vizcaino and Young. Then using El Duke either in Brandon's present role or trading him for a reliever should he have insisted on starting. The DBacks got Jorge Julio for him, a 27 year old righty with a 3.66 ERA 1.14 WHIP who would have fit in quite nicely along side Viz. We would have been spared the Logan, Montero, Nelson, Tracey ordeal.

 

Water under the dam.

 

Fair enough I suppose, but what's neglected in your analysis is the safety net aspect that KW wanted.

 

These guys threw a lot of innings last year, we are now well into July and fortunately no one has run out of gas yet. McCarthy is an outstanding insurance policy that very few if any teams have.

 

This team is built around starting pitching and all starting pitching has its ups and downs. Vazquez has been a disappointment but even so the White Sox are playing good baseball and are only 1 game behind a surprise Tiger team. Adding a guy who can give you a serviceable 200 innings was important, he is basically pitching at his norm right now and he's healthy which is vital to the staff. He needs to do better, who knows if he will, none of us really know.

 

Frankly I would rather have McCarthy as a potential fill in vs. an unproven rookie they'd have to call up from Charlotte or Birmingham.

 

I think the loss of Young will ultimately hurt but notice they drafted quite a few CF guys this year. Bottom line for me anyways is this ... anytime you have a chance to bolster starting pitching, you do it. There is just not much pitching out there, especially starters, so I see why KW did what he did. Now it's up to Vazquez to pony up, he has been lucky so far and luck only goes so far.

 

He needs something positive on the mound to happen for him to get it going. He's such an emotional pitcher that he more than anyone needs to feel confident out there for him to pitch well.

 

Right, and I think he needs to channel that emotion better. You can see him get rattled when he doesn't get a close call, or when he makes an arguably good pitch and a hitter does a good job and drills it for a double.

 

A big part of that is dealing with pressure. He didn't do especially well with that aspect in NY, he has now had 1/2 season in Chicago with a tight divisional race. Time for him to step up in the 2nd half, this guy is 30 yrs. old now and it's time to be consistent. Hawk and DJ were talking about it last nite, they know this guy has good stuff and he's putting forth the effort ... but he gets rattled and that leads to problems.