Next 15 games

[VAfan]

This is going to be a nice stretch to show baseball that we are still the team to beat. I expect us to have the best record in baseball after these 15 games.

 

 

GO WHITE SOX!!

[tonyho7476]

Ouch! Those teams are f***ED!

 

Get 'er done!

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Strap er down...go sox

[Bonderman38]

I don't think the Sox have the best record after that point. Just because Detroit has an easier schedule during schedule during that stretch. If and when the Sox overtake the Tigers, it will be in August, where the Tigers have a very tough schedule.

 

They play KC, CWS, OAK, CLE, MIN, and TB

[BobDylan]

I don't care what they do against the Yankees and Red Sox. Take care of business in the division and beat up the Tigers and Twins. Make a statement to the division first, they can make a statement around the rest of the league later in October.

Edited July 9, 2006 by BobDylan

[shawnhillegas]

well, i really think that we should have won today. the funny thing is, i would have no problem facing schilling or beckett in the playoffs, there is no right handed, hardthrowing pitcher (without a changeup) who i dont think the sox can beat. verlander scares me mostly because he has a santana-esque changeup.

[VAfan]

As it has turned out so far, these should be called the 15 games to oblivion.

 

So far, we are:

 

1-2 v. Boston (only by miracle did we avoid a sweep)

0-3 v. Yanks

1-2 v. Detroit

1-2 v. Texas

0-1 v. Minny

 

3-10 with two games left with Minnesota, including facing Santana tonight. Over the last 10 games, we've lost 8 games in the standings to Minnesota. It is a complete meltdown.

 

Can this team recover?? I hope so, but I no longer have any confidence that it will. (Once Minnesota gets past us, we could play .600 baseball for the rest of the year and not make the playoffs.)

 

My biggest problem is not the starting pitching -- though that has been horrible (outside of Jon Garland and valiant efforts of Jose Contreras) -- it is with Ozzie Guillen. Between Jay Mariotti and the various hit batsmen incidents, Ozzie appears no longer to be manager of this team, but just a hothead who gives a lot of media interviews. Get it together, Ozzie. Your TEAM needs you.

[Guest JimH]

My biggest problem is not the starting pitching -- though that has been horrible (outside of Jon Garland and valiant efforts of Jose Contreras) -- it is with Ozzie Guillen. Between Jay Mariotti and the various hit batsmen incidents, Ozzie appears no longer to be manager of this team, but just a hothead who gives a lot of media interviews. Get it together, Ozzie. Your TEAM needs you.

 

Where is your rant thread about the players? You know, the ones who haven't been getting the job done?

 

Maybe you already did one a month or two ago and I apologize if I missed it.

 

If so, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before you bump it up from oblivion.

[pcullotta]

Where is your rant thread about the players? You know, the ones who haven't been getting the job done?

 

Maybe you already did one a month or two ago and I apologize if I missed it.

 

If so, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before you bump it up from oblivion.

 

Boy, you sure did add a lot to this thread

 

Vafan brings up a good point. When this thread was started, we were optimistic and really controlled our own destiny. If we would've played well during this stretch, we'd be in great shape. However, we have played like crap and it really is annoying that all you hear about are Ozzie's issues. I mean Jon pitched an unbelievable game and afterwards all you see on the highlight shows is Ozzie slamming a water bottle and yelling at Jon in the dugout. We won the game and the top story is Ozzie flips out again because his pitcher didn't bean someone. I agree Ozzie should be focusing on getting this team turned around right now. Not on starting fights with reporters or other teams.

Edited July 25, 2006 by pcullotta

[Guest JimH]

Boy, you sure did add a lot to this thread

 

Vafan brings up a good point. When this thread was started, we were optimistic and really controlled our own destiny. If we would've played well during this stretch, we'd be in great shape. However, we have played like crap and it really is annoying that all you hear about are Ozzie's issues. I mean Jon pitched an unbelievable game and afterwards all you see on the highlight shows is Ozzie slamming a water bottle and yelling at Jon in the dugout. We won the game and the top story is Ozzie flips out again because his pitcher didn't bean someone. I agree Ozzie should be focusing on getting this team turned around right now. Not on starting fights with reporters or other teams.

 

The point being, the players are the ones who perform and get the job done, or in the case of the White Sox recently, don't get the job done.

 

Regarding his "rant on the manager" thread yesterday, every single point he made blaming the manager is actually a case of a player not performing. He is a guy who shows faith in his players, he showed tons of faith in Garland last year, in direct contrast to what Manuel did. Guess what, Garland blossomed. Coincidence? I think not. He has shown faith in Garcia this year, Garcia has been mediocre at best but he pitched extremely well his last outing. Start of a turnaround? Who knows.

 

Buerhle has been awful lately, should he yank him out of the rotation or show faith in him? He'll show faith in Buehrle.

 

Vazquez pitched into the 6th last nite on a relatively low pitch count, personally I saw no reason for him to come out for the 7th even though he made two decent pitches and got beat on the two HR's. I suspect they will go to 12 pitchers shortly, KW will acquire someone and it wouldn't surprise me if they were showcasing Gload (that didn't work out either, he went 0-4 I think).

 

Talk about losing your team, losing your clubhouse, etc. - ask any fired manager who didn't show faith in his players and they'll tell you it's the quickest way to lose the clubhouse. And at the end of the day, if the manager shows faith in the players and they don't succeed, that means they need better players.

 

As for misusing players, that can be argued all day and all nite. If the guy succeeds it was a good move, if he doesn't, it's a bad move.

 

Personally I think the manager gets too much credit and too much blame. Players around the league want to play here, he gets credit for that. But ultimately, to me, it falls on the players. It is their job to perform.

 

I trust that's adding enough to the thread pcullota.

Edited July 25, 2006 by JimH

[Hangar18]

Boy, you sure did add a lot to this thread

 

Vafan brings up a good point. When this thread was started, we were optimistic and really controlled our own destiny. If we would've played well during this stretch, we'd be in great shape. However, we have played like crap and it really is annoying that all you hear about are Ozzie's issues. I mean Jon pitched an unbelievable game and afterwards all you see on the highlight shows is Ozzie slamming a water bottle and yelling at Jon in the dugout. We won the game and the top story is Ozzie flips out again because his pitcher didn't bean someone. I agree Ozzie should be focusing on getting this team turned around right now. Not on starting fights with reporters or other teams.

 

 

I wasnt. It all started for me during the last game of the Houston series. Gave up way too many runs, came back to tie, but couldnt push the winning run in which knowingly was going to get our bullpen into the game and the eventual loss. We went to Pitts and played rough, including Losing Gm3 horribly because of our offense and Ozzies reliance on a bad Cliff Politte. The Cub series was brutal all the way around, with AJ saving us on Saturday, but Buehrle putting us into a bigger hole than anyone thought at the time (kittle knows what im talking about). We werent able to take all 4 from bad Baltimore team,

but I was very worried with the RedSox here. Weve been on an unchecked slide since.

 

Whats Unnerving is that in this stretch ....................there were 6 games (arguably) that we shouldve WON.

All 6 of these games were Winnable, but a missed bunt, a few Politte appearances and a couple of Vazquez starts made sure that didnt happen. If we win even just those 6 games, were still right there with the Tigers.

 

Vazquez pitched into the 6th last nite on a relatively low pitch count, personally I saw no reason for him to come out for the 7th

 

 

Vazquez is a "special" case, its clear hes very bothered by his losses and his confidence is waning badly right now. Ozzie needs to get him his innings then take him out and say GOOD JOB, let the bullpen win it for you. Get him a couple easy wins like this, get his confidence up, then let him last a batter extra .....

its about Momentum for certain pitchers (hahaahahah, I said Momentum!) and this would go a LOOOOOOONG WAY in helping Javy get turned around, because for now, hes still a SOX.

[pcullotta]

The point being, the players are the ones who perform and get the job done, or in the case of the White Sox recently, don't get the job done.

 

Regarding his "rant on the manager" thread yesterday, every single point he made blaming the manager is actually a case of a player not performing. He is a guy who shows faith in his players, he showed tons of faith in Garland last year, in direct contrast to what Manuel did. Guess what, Garland blossomed. Coincidence? I think not. He has shown faith in Garcia this year, Garcia has been mediocre at best but he pitched extremely well his last outing. Start of a turnaround? Who knows.

 

Buerhle has been awful lately, should he yank him out of the rotation or show faith in him? He'll show faith in Buehrle.

 

Vazquez pitched into the 6th last nite on a relatively low pitch count, personally I saw no reason for him to come out for the 7th even though he made two decent pitches and got beat on the two HR's. I suspect they will go to 12 pitchers shortly, KW will acquire someone and it wouldn't surprise me if they were showcasing Gload (that didn't work out either, he went 0-4 I think).

 

Talk about losing your team, losing your clubhouse, etc. - ask any fired manager who didn't show faith in his players and they'll tell you it's the quickest way to lose the clubhouse. And at the end of the day, if the manager shows faith in the players and they don't succeed, that means they need better players.

 

As for misusing players, that can be argued all day and all nite. If the guy succeeds it was a good move, if he doesn't, it's a bad move.

 

Personally I think the manager gets too much credit and too much blame. Players around the league want to play here, he gets credit for that. But ultimately, to me, it falls on the players. It is their job to perform.

 

I trust that's adding enough to the thread pcullota.

 

It is, that's much more entertaining to read then your previous post. Very well thought out as well and it displays your opinion much better then just taking a jab at someone's post. And if you didn't mean to take a jab, I'm sorry. I don't intend to start arguments. Anyways, It truly is hard to tell whether or not the manager is distracting the team or if the players are just off. Right now, I believe the players are causing the problem more then anything. I just don't want to see Ozzie making even more negative headlines for us.

[fathom]

I trust that's adding enough to the thread pcullota.

 

Excellent post

[Finkelstein]

I agree that the players are paid to perform, but I also think that it is the job of a manager to utilize the information available to him to do what gives his team the best chance to win. It is Ozzie's job to know that the 3rd time around Javy doesn't fool anyone. His leash in that situation should have been extremely short. He had Cotts warming in the pen, and after the 2 run Hr he should have brought him in. Hindsight is 20/20, but you can't tell me that every Sox fan didn't have flashbacks when the Twins lead off the 6th with a single.

[Guest JimH]

It is, that's much more entertaining to read then your previous post. Very well thought out as well and it displays your opinion much better then just taking a jab at someone's post. And if you didn't mean to take a jab, I'm sorry. I don't intend to start arguments. Anyways, It truly is hard to tell whether or not the manager is distracting the team or if the players are just off. Right now, I believe the players are causing the problem more then anything. I just don't want to see Ozzie making even more negative headlines for us.

 

I have shared basically that same opinion with him at least 100 times and refute his points, he ignores it and comes back the next day, bumps up another old thread, and goes on the same rant, so I'm sorry if the first response was short and to the point without amplification.

 

There are some things Guillen is doing wrong IMO. The first is the makeup of his bench. If he wants to play small ball, speed, defense, move the runners over etc. then he needs to tell KW to get somebody who can play OF defense and do that stuff. KW and Guillen work closely together, KW asks Guillen and the coaches several times a year "what do you want, what do you need". It's how the team was constructed. I think Gload is a great guy and a good player but they should've been working Mackowiak in over at 1B and get a guy who can steal bases, play OF defense, etc.

 

Also I think he hasn't been aggressive enough. Very few hit and runs, less emphasis on the running game. Both of these aspects not only help energize your team, it forces the team to play better funadamentally. Habits then become instinctual.

 

As far as his involvement with pitching, I think he needs to sit down with Cooper, the catchers, and the pitching staff and insist they attack more, be more aggressive. Jenks screwing around with Ian Kinsler the other nite was dumb. None of these pitchers are perfect, but they are all good pitchers. There is no weak link now that Politte is gone. They are solid and these guys have to perform. For some reason they aren't executing and they need to find out why.

 

Regarding yelling at Garland and Tracey, heck I would prefer it didn't happen in public but believe it when I say there is a lot worse stuff that goes on in every dugout in the major leagues. He is trying to protect his players from getting plunked, he is tired of it and so am I. But one thing I will say is, if he's angry about baseball's rules, that's his problem because he isn't gonna change them. Therefore maybe he needs to take the initiative instead of getting all worked up when one of his guys gets hit. Some of these opposing guys crowd the plate and hit pull HR's on outside breaking pitches. Which means they lean over the plate. I would suggest Ozzie and Cooper tell their pitchers to get more aggressive about establishing territory. Sox pitchers do not do a good job making opposing hitters uncomfortable, and ultimately the manager has to instill that in them if they are unwilling or unable to do it themselves.

[pcullotta]

Regarding yelling at Garland and Tracey, heck I would prefer it didn't happen in public but believe it when I say there is a lot worse stuff that goes on in every dugout in the major leagues. He is trying to protect his players from getting plunked, he is tired of it and so am I. But one thing I will say is, if he's angry about baseball's rules, that's his problem because he isn't gonna change them. Therefore maybe he needs to take the initiative instead of getting all worked up when one of his guys gets hit.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying. One thing I worry about though is that when he pubically states We will strke back or We won't take that crap he is almost asking for the other team to bean our guys by acting like such a tough guy.

Edited July 25, 2006 by pcullotta

[gettysburg32]

Also I think he hasn't been aggressive enough. Very few hit and runs, less emphasis on the running game. Both of these aspects not only help energize your team, it forces the team to play better funadamentally. Habits then become instinctual.

 

 

 

I was thinking today at work (instead of working) and this is was my conclusion. Basically, the whole argument for "small ball" and having a team that relies on speed and pushing the opposing team's defense is - "every team goes into a slump, but a team that plays this way and does it well should have shorter and less dramatic slumps."

 

Well, the last couple weeks have clearly been a "meltdown level" slump and the team looks like they have zero confidence. In the meanwhile, the running game and "putting pressure on the defense" idea has gone out the window.

 

I love homers and we have lots of guys who can hit lots of homers, but if I see another game with 2 solo homers being our only offense, well, I can't in reality do spiff, but anyway. Our team as a whole has less speed than last year's team but Pods, Gooch, Ozuna, Uribe, Brian (and to a lesser extent even Dye, Cintron, Mack) can still make things happen, but there's been none of that the last 3-4 weeks.

 

Some of that is players' fault - if you can't get on base, you can't run, if you can't get a bunt down, how is that Ozzie's fault? etc, etc. But some of it, the manager has to set the tone and make the call. Right now, even if it backfires, even if we run ourselves out of an inning or two, who cares? It can't make things any worse at the moment. I'm in absolutely zero position to say, "Ozzie is distracted, etc." but he seems to be managing differently, with the same lack of confidence his players have, since the slump hit and it's making the slump worse.

 

There's still time to turn it around, but the attitude has to renew itself and Ozzie has to help, not by ranting and fighting, but by forcing the issue vs. the opponent's again and by taking some of the thought process off of his guys.

[VAfan]

The point being, the players are the ones who perform and get the job done, or in the case of the White Sox recently, don't get the job done.

 

Regarding his "rant on the manager" thread yesterday, every single point he made blaming the manager is actually a case of a player not performing. He is a guy who shows faith in his players, he showed tons of faith in Garland last year, in direct contrast to what Manuel did. Guess what, Garland blossomed. Coincidence? I think not. He has shown faith in Garcia this year, Garcia has been mediocre at best but he pitched extremely well his last outing. Start of a turnaround? Who knows.

 

Buerhle has been awful lately, should he yank him out of the rotation or show faith in him? He'll show faith in Buehrle.

 

Vazquez pitched into the 6th last nite on a relatively low pitch count, personally I saw no reason for him to come out for the 7th even though he made two decent pitches and got beat on the two HR's. I suspect they will go to 12 pitchers shortly, KW will acquire someone and it wouldn't surprise me if they were showcasing Gload (that didn't work out either, he went 0-4 I think).

 

Talk about losing your team, losing your clubhouse, etc. - ask any fired manager who didn't show faith in his players and they'll tell you it's the quickest way to lose the clubhouse. And at the end of the day, if the manager shows faith in the players and they don't succeed, that means they need better players.

 

As for misusing players, that can be argued all day and all nite. If the guy succeeds it was a good move, if he doesn't, it's a bad move.

 

Personally I think the manager gets too much credit and too much blame. Players around the league want to play here, he gets credit for that. But ultimately, to me, it falls on the players. It is their job to perform.

 

I trust that's adding enough to the thread pcullota.

 

 

The point of this post was grasped by others, but apparently not by you. Going into this 15 game stretch, we had an opportunity to take control of the season. Had we gone 10-5 against Boston, NY, Detroit, Texas, and Minnesota, there would be no doubt that the 2006 White Sox were the best team in baseball, with everyone else scrambling to find a way to beat us. In other words, I thought these 15 games would really define our season. Well, it turns out they have defined our season, but in a way none of saw coming.

 

My rant against Ozzie is an entirely separate matter and the subject of a different post. But let me explain for a moment why my ire is directed at him primarily.

 

First, sure the players should suck it up, but sometimes that is easier said than done. How will Buerhle get his pitches down again? What would allow Javy Vazquez to keep from throwing fat pitches the third time through the lineup? Where is Freddy Garcia going to get extra velocity on his fastball? Can Pods really hit a left hander if he just concentrates more?

 

By contrast, the things Ozzie could do differently are right there to be done. There's nothing stopping him. It is all about putting players in the best position to succeed. If they don't, then there is nothing more the manager can do. But if he's making obvious mistakes that cost in crucial situations, then that's on him.

 

Second, if we're lucky, the playoffs are going to be made or lost this year based on 2-3 games out of 162. We don't have any margin for error at this point. In fact, it may already be too late. Minnesota could play .650 ball from here to the end of the season, and we may not be able to keep up. But let's assume for the moment that isn't the case. Those 2-3 wins are going to be made or broken based on Ozzie Guillen's decisions. Just in the latest stretch, we've seen back-to-back critical starts by Javy Vazquez where using the bullpen could have kept us in the lead against our two AL Central rivals. Those losses may keep us out of the playoffs. I hang both of them on Ozzie.

 

As for having faith in the players, I agree that Ozzie's touch worked wonders LAST YEAR. But he also had the luxury of a HUGE lead that, even if it was lost, would have likely resulted in a wild card playoff berth. This year, we no longer have such luxury, yet Ozzie appears to manage as if we do.

 

I come back to a point I have made on several posts, because it was so striking. It was a comment Bobby Cox -- Ozzie's key managerial mentor -- made in response to an off-camera interview on Sunday Night Baseball. When asked what he was doing to bring the team back from its horrible slide, he said all he was trying to do was WIN TONIGHT'S BALL GAME. I think Ozzie has lost that focus.

[Guest JimH]

The point of this post was grasped by others, but apparently not by you.

 

I completely got the point and I refuted it by saying every single little thing you posted was about the players failing to execute.

 

Do you understand?

 

The campground calls, maybe there is a new treasure trove of haikus there.

 

If you don't like your rambling points being refuted, perhaps put me on ignore.

[kapkomet]

At the end of the day, the players execute. Or, the manager shouldn't allow them to execute poorly. In the end, they're both to blame. So you're both right.

 

How hard was that?

[Guest JimH]

At the end of the day, the players execute. Or, the manager shouldn't allow them to execute poorly. In the end, they're both to blame. So you're both right.

 

How hard was that?

 

Good, now try your magic in the train wrecks that are called game threads.

[VAfan]

I completely got the point and I refuted it by saying every single little thing you posted was about the players failing to execute.

 

Do you understand?

 

The campground calls, maybe there is a new treasure trove of haikus there.

 

If you don't like your rambling points being refuted, perhaps put me on ignore.

 

I guess I'm always left wondering why you seem to go out of your way to attack me. What's up with that? I don't care if you agree with me, but you don't have to make it a personal attack.

[Balance]

Official record for that 15-game stretch?

 

3-12.

[VAfan]

At the end of the day, the players execute. Or, the manager shouldn't allow them to execute poorly. In the end, they're both to blame. So you're both right.

 

How hard was that?

 

At this point, now that Minnesota has caught us, it is going to take the players executing for us to have any shot of making the postseason. And it was always going to take that.

 

But in a tight race, the manager can win or lose you the games that decide who plays on and who goes home in October. And as I wrote elsewhere, I think Ozzie has lost his way. He had to pull the right strings last year to win all those 1-run games. But this year, when the team has changed, he seems to have lost his focus. Those episodes yelling at Tracey and then Garland for not beaning someone -- well maybe worse has gone on in the past -- just lost me.

[Guest JimH]

I guess I'm always left wondering why you seem to go out of your way to attack me. What's up with that? I don't care if you agree with me, but you don't have to make it a personal attack.

 

I'm refuting your rambling points in your rambling posts, sorry you're so sensitive. Again, don't want someone refuting your points, don't post, or put me on ignore. Real simple.

 

Those episodes yelling at Tracey and then Garland for not beaning someone -- well maybe worse has gone on in the past -- just lost me.

 

I'm not surprised it lost you.