This team will have a better regular season record than last year'

[quickman]

How about the fact that their team ERA is higher? Josh Beckett is their number 2 starter, how's he doing?

 

No, not really. Their ERA's haven't been constantly at 5. Freddy and Javy have both been under that for most of the year, and Garland's is on its way down.

 

 

they are on there way up and we are on our way down. Quite frankly, I really don't understand this argument. Hibbard started it by saying we will have a better record than year. I disagree. Our pitching is not as good. Pitching wins. Secondly, I think the sox are in a stretch now that will dictate the direction of this year. They will not win this division. This next week is critical. The tigers assuming they win tonight and tommorrow should have a 4 game lead on us going into the allstar break. We will play the yankees and they will have 4 against the royals. then we will go to detroit. You assume my math is incorrect, I am saying we should be out of division contention by the end of the month, fighting with the yanks for the wild card.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

A pitchers wins and losses can be a VERY MISLEADING stat for a pitcher..

Edited July 8, 2006 by Greg The Bull Luzinski

[quickman]

My gawd quickman ... "could easily" have nine losses.

So what. He has nine wins. Those are the facts.

We also could have lost every game Thome did not play in against

the N.L.

Ifs mean nothing. The White Sox are going to be in the race all year.

 

 

what race, the wild card (yes) nothign else. The point of this thread was the sox were going to have a better record than last year. I disagree. thats the point. And hibbard is nowhere to be found.

 

Our pitching will not be this bad all year. All of their totals are well above their career averages. Either we're getting extremely unlucky in catching this all in one year, or they'll start pitching better at some point.

 

and our hitting will not be as good as all this year.

[Frankensteiner]

How about the fact that their team ERA is higher? Josh Beckett is their number 2 starter, how's he doing?

 

Lester just got into their rotation recently. They've been screwed with Clement and Wells. As far as Beckett, his stuff is better than anybody on our staff, and I've seen him dominate in the playoffs. I'd take him over anyone of our 3-4-5 guys.

 

No, not really. Their ERA's haven't been constantly at 5. Freddy and Javy have both been under that for most of the year, and Garland's is on its way down.

 

GMAFB. Garcia's ERA was 5.86 in April, 4.81 in June, 6.00 in July. That's 2 s***ty months and he's working on a 3rd. The guy's stuff is gone... unless it magically returns, we're stuck with an average to below average pitcher. Garland has been terrible up until his last few starts. There's some serious hypocricy there, trying to downplay what you describe as "one bad stretch" of pitching, yet jumping for joy because Garland's last few starts. I'll start getting excited when he gets his ERA under 5. Vazquez has had a bad June, I'll agree there. I'm not holding out much hope for him to be anything more than a servicable 5th starter.

[ZoomSlowik]

they are on there way up and we are on our way down. Quite frankly, I really don't understand this argument. Hibbard started it by saying we will have a better record than year. I disagree. Our pitching is not as good. Pitching wins. Secondly, I think the sox are in a stretch now that will dictate the direction of this year. They will not win this division. This next week is critical. The tigers assuming they win tonight and tommorrow should have a 4 game lead on us going into the allstar break. We will play the yankees and they will have 4 against the royals. then we will go to detroit. You assume my math is incorrect, I am saying we should be out of division contention by the end of the month, fighting with the yanks for the wild card.

 

You're making assumptions about the rest of the season based on a very small sample size. We've really only been pitching this poorly for two weeks, and we're still only 2.5 games behind the best team in baseball. There's no guarantee that Detroit, a team full of pitchers with meager major league resumes and a first-half specialist journeyman will keep playing this well, just like there's no guarantee that our staff full of veterans will keep pitching this poorly. There's a lot of baseball left to be played and you simply don't know what will happen. You're already conceding everything though. Even if we struggle through this next stretch, assuming we lose every game and that Detroit wins every game as well is a hell of a stretch.

 

If pitching wins, how come the Cubs lost in 2003? How come the mid-90's Braves only got one title? How come the A's never won a playoff series? It takes a lot more than just good pitching to win it all. Even with our pitchers performing like crap of late, we're still on pace to win over 100 games and have the 2nd best record in baseball. If you're so sure that we're going to lose, go buy a Tigers' hat and go away.

 

Lester just got into their rotation recently. They've been screwed with Clement and Wells. As far as Beckett, his stuff is better than anybody on our staff, and I've seen him dominate in the playoffs. I'd take him over anyone of our 3-4-5 guys.

GMAFB. Garcia's ERA was 5.86 in April, 4.81 in June, 6.00 in July. That's 2 s***ty months and he's working on a 3rd. The guy's stuff is gone... unless it magically returns, we're stuck with an average to below average pitcher. Garland has been terrible up until his last few starts. There's some serious hypocricy there, trying to downplay what you describe as "one bad stretch" of pitching, yet jumping for joy because Garland's last few starts. I'll start getting excited when he gets his ERA under 5. Vazquez has had a bad June, I'll agree there. I'm not holding out much hope for him to be anything more than a servicable 5th starter.

 

So now John Lester is the savior, 1.55 WHIP and all? Come on. He probably won't even be on the playoff roster.

[shoota]

I'm not saying it is the objective

 

Then what is your objective?

[greg775]

There's no guarantee that Detroit, a team full of pitchers with meager major league resumes and a first-half specialist journeyman will keep playing this well, just like there's no guarantee that our staff full of veterans will keep pitching this poorly. There's a lot of baseball left to be played and you simply don't know what will happen. You're already conceding everything though

Exactly.

Your scenario could happen but how the hell do we know Detroit is going

to keep blazing through everybody?

If the Tigers do, they are gonna win 110 games and nobody will be within

9 games of Det.

[Frankensteiner]

You're making assumptions about the rest of the season based on a very small sample size. We've really only been pitching this poorly for two weeks, and we're still only 2.5 games behind the best team in baseball. There's no guarantee that Detroit, a team full of pitchers with meager major league resumes and a first-half specialist journeyman will keep playing this well, just like there's no guarantee that our staff full of veterans will keep pitching this poorly. There's a lot of baseball left to be played and you simply don't know what will happen. You're already conceding everything though. Even if we struggle through this next stretch, assuming we lose every game and that Detroit wins every game as well is a hell of a stretch.

 

If pitching wins, how come the Cubs lost in 2003? How come the mid-90's Braves only got one title? How come the A's never won a playoff series? It takes a lot more than just good pitching to win it all. Even with our pitchers performing like crap of late, we're still on pace to win over 100 games and have the 2nd best record in baseball. If you're so sure that we're going to lose, go buy a Tigers' hat and go away.

So now John Lester is the savior, 1.55 WHIP and all? Come on. He probably won't even be on the playoff roster.

 

I'd take Schilling-Beckett-Wakefield over Contreras-Buehrle-Garcia. And guess what, we're 0-2 with Buehrle and Garcia pitching against Boston. Buehrle, although a very good pitcher, does not have the power arm to shut down good hitting offenses like the Red Sox.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'd take Schilling-Beckett-Wakefield over Contreras-Buehrle-Garcia. And guess what, we're 0-2 with Buehrle and Garcia pitching against Boston. Buehrle, although a very good pitcher, does not have the power arm to shut down good hitting offenses like the Red Sox.

 

Neither is Wakefield or Wells, and there's no guarantee that Beckett will even be healthy when the playoffs come around. People said the same thing about Clement last year, and he sucked. We hit Beckett pretty well too, so it's not like he's the shut-down type either. By that logic, Vazquez is a shut-down type too because he as the ability to do it. Beckett isn't pitching much better than he is.

 

I'd happily take our rotation, because it is deeper and more proven. Boston has Schilling and a ton of question marks. We've at least got Contreras and Buehrle, and I've got a lot more faith that our guys will pitch well when it matters.

[greg775]

Wakefield sucks.

Some of the posters on this board would bury him if he was a White Sox

because of his inconsistency.

[Frankensteiner]

Neither is Wakefield or Wells, and there's no guarantee that Beckett will even be healthy when the playoffs come around. People said the same thing about Clement last year, and he sucked. We hit Beckett pretty well too, so it's not like he's the shut-down type either. By that logic, Vazquez is a shut-down type too because he as the ability to do it. Beckett isn't pitching much better than he is.

 

I'd happily take our rotation, because it is deeper and more proven. Boston has Schilling and a ton of question marks. We've at least got Contreras and Buehrle, and I've got a lot more faith that our guys will pitch well when it matters.

 

That's true about Beckett, but he has been dominant in the playoffs before. In contrast to Buehrle (who's never had great stuff) or Garcia (who's lost his stuff), Beckett has the ability to shut teams down. Also, he's been hurt by the HR ball this season, but his WHIP coming into today was still lower than any of our starters outside of Count... which tells me he's had some bad luck. Vazquez has given up more baserunners and he's never had Beckett's post-season (or even regular season) success. It's not a good comparison.

 

As far as our rotation being more proven, I don't know about that at all. Schilling has a much better track record than any of our pitchers. Count's had a bad month and it's still to early to tell if he's a sure-fire ace. I need to see him do that over a full season... hitters can adjust, which is why I'm still somewhat skeptical. Buehrle is a good pitcher, but he's not a dominating post-season pitcher. We had Garcia last year as that other power arm to go along with Contreras. I think we're missing that this season.

[quickman]

Well I think I made my point. The original thought was from Hibbard who said we would have a better record than last year. I completely disagree. I also stated we will go into a skid right here. We are two games into a skid which i believe will lead us to 6 games out by the time the Tigers are down mopping us up. I don't want to be right on this one, but the bats will cool and the pitching is not in top form. i also think unlike last year this team will need a spark via a trade. For who I don't know but it will need a spark. Furthermore i am saying we will be contenders for the wild card not the division. There you go, I gave you my reasons which you can disagree, but I believe they are sound reasons and I do believe we are running into a very difficult part of of schedule with a poor pitching staff "right now"

[ZoomSlowik]

That's true about Beckett, but he has been dominant in the playoffs before. In contrast to Buehrle (who's never had great stuff) or Garcia (who's lost his stuff), Beckett has the ability to shut teams down. Also, he's been hurt by the HR ball this season, but his WHIP coming into today was still lower than any of our starters outside of Count... which tells me he's had some bad luck. Vazquez has given up more baserunners and he's never had Beckett's post-season (or even regular season) success. It's not a good comparison.

 

As far as our rotation being more proven, I don't know about that at all. Schilling has a much better track record than any of our pitchers. Count's had a bad month and it's still to early to tell if he's a sure-fire ace. I need to see him do that over a full season... hitters can adjust, which is why I'm still somewhat skeptical. Buehrle is a good pitcher, but he's not a dominating post-season pitcher. We had Garcia last year as that other power arm to go along with Contreras. I think we're missing that this season.

 

Talk to the Angels and Astros about Buehrle and Garcia about "not dominating" in the playoffs.

 

Well I think I made my point. The original thought was from Hibbard who said we would have a better record than last year. I completely disagree. I also stated we will go into a skid right here. We are two games into a skid which i believe will lead us to 6 games out by the time the Tigers are down mopping us up. I don't want to be right on this one, but the bats will cool and the pitching is not in top form. i also think unlike last year this team will need a spark via a trade. For who I don't know but it will need a spark. Furthermore i am saying we will be contenders for the wild card not the division. There you go, I gave you my reasons which you can disagree, but I believe they are sound reasons and I do believe we are running into a very difficult part of of schedule with a poor pitching staff "right now"

 

People were saying the same s*** in August last year, and lamenting about how we needed another big bat to go anywhere. Oops.

 

Quit giving up before the battle's even close to over.

[southsideirish71]

Talk to the Angels and Astros about Buehrle and Garcia about "not dominating" in the playoffs.

People were saying the same s*** in August last year, and lamenting about how we needed another big bat to go anywhere. Oops.

 

Quit giving up before the battle's even close to over.

 

 

Freddy last year threw 91-94 during his starts. Apples to Oranges. This years Freddy is a different pitcher. To just say, well because he did well before he will do well again doesnt transfer. Because last year Freddy would pitch bad against bad teams, and then would pitch like an ACE against good teams. His velocity last year was never in the mid to upper 80s'.

[quickman]

Talk to the Angels and Astros about Buehrle and Garcia about "not dominating" in the playoffs.

People were saying the same s*** in August last year, and lamenting about how we needed another big bat to go anywhere. Oops.

 

Quit giving up before the battle's even close to over.

 

nobody is giving up, and this has nothing to do with last year either. The team is different and so is the american league central. last year should never come into the conversation. This team right now is not pitching well nor are they playing well. Thats the facts. i am saying they are heading into a bad part of the schedule which will leave them many games back. How is that giving up? Please tell me how you think they will do tommorrow and against the yankees and tigers on the road. Then tell me how the tigers will do against seattle the next two games and then the four against KC. I realize we must and they must actaully play the games but really do some math and let me know how many games back you think the sox will be.

[Frankensteiner]

Talk to the Angels and Astros about Buehrle and Garcia about "not dominating" in the playoffs.

 

Did you read what I wrote? I did say Garcia was a dominating power pitcher last season and in last year's post-season. That's not going to happen again unless he re-discovers his good fastball. As far as Buehrle, he did pretty well against a weak hitting Angels lineup. He's always feasted on poor offensive teams.

 

There was nothing dominating about his 7 IP/4 ER starts against the Red Sox and Astros last year.

[ZoomSlowik]

nobody is giving up, and this has nothing to do with last year either. The team is different and so is the american league central. last year should never come into the conversation. This team right now is not pitching well nor are they playing well. Thats the facts. i am saying they are heading into a bad part of the schedule which will leave them many games back. How is that giving up? Please tell me how you think they will do tommorrow and against the yankees and tigers on the road. Then tell me how the tigers will do against seattle the next two games and then the four against KC. I realize we must and they must actaully play the games but really do some math and let me know how many games back you think the sox will be.

 

You're already conceeding the games as losses, that's where you're giving up.

 

I certainly don't see us losing all of them, or the Tigers winning all of them. I see it as being roughly the same as it's been the last month: they hold their own and generally end up winning the series. The only real difference is Boston has matched our slugging this series. Neither of those teams have the same kind of lineup as they do. They Yankees have been pretty mediocre, and we're 5-1 so far against Detroit. I expect us to at least split them, that's what the better teams do.

[quickman]

You're already conceeding the games as losses, that's where you're giving up.

 

I certainly don't see us losing all of them, or the Tigers winning all of them. I see it as being roughly the same as it's been the last month: they hold their own and generally end up winning the series. The only real difference is Boston has matched our slugging this series. Neither of those teams have the same kind of lineup as they do. They Yankees have been pretty mediocre, and we're 5-1 so far against Detroit. I expect us to at least split them, that's what the better teams do.

 

 

0k no problem and I am saying they will be 6 games out after the tiger series. This is not that hard of a discussion. i gave my reasons, which you disagreed.no problem. I gave my reasons and you have yours which I believe is "they will hold there own" Ok, no problem, I just think they are playing poorly now and the schedule gets tougher. How many games back will they be after the tiger series?

[ZoomSlowik]

0k no problem and I am saying they will be 6 games out after the tiger series. This is not that hard of a discussion. i gave my reasons, which you disagreed.no problem. I gave my reasons and you have yours which I believe is "they will hold there own" Ok, no problem, I just think they are playing poorly now and the schedule gets tougher. How many games back will they be after the tiger series?

 

Wait, you've been saying how they'll be out of the race and tied with the Yankees, and you're saying 6? That's not THAT bad. I wouldn't call that "out of the race." The way you were talking you made it sound like it'd be 9.

 

I certainly don't see us losing our lead on the Yankees. My guess is somewhere right around where we are, like 3 or 4, maybe 5.

Edited July 9, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[GSH]

You people need to relax.

 

2nd half will be nerve racking but but but but

 

[quickman]

Wait, you've been saying how they'll be out of the race and tied with the Yankees, and you're saying 6? That's not THAT bad. I wouldn't call that "out of the race."

 

Anyways, my guess is somewhere right around where we are, like 3 or 4.

 

 

I believe I said they will be out of the divisional race contending with the Yankees for the Wild card. i think my point of which you seem to ignore is that the sox are not playing well and this is a tough schedule coming up. Considering we have not been able to catch the tigers when we are just a game back I would view 6 games back to be a problem. I view this year as contending for the Wild card. I hope I am wrong but the pitching is not there and the hitting will cool off. as far as giving up, I am not as i continue to pay my 12k a year for tickets, but i do know when a team is playing poorly and now is that time and quite frankly its the wrong time with a tough week for us and an easy week for detriot.

 

i bet you believe we will win every year. it doesn't happen.

 

You people need to relax.

 

2nd half will be nerve racking but but but but

 

 

 

I realize your point, I am relaxed actually. Board discussions are good gives a different perspective on things.

Edited July 9, 2006 by quickman

[ZoomSlowik]

I believe I said they will be out of the divisional race contending with the Yankees for the Wild card. i think my point of which you seem to ignore is that the sox are not playing well and this is a tough schedule coming up. Considering we have not been able to catch the tigers when we are just a game back I would view 6 games back to be a problem. I view this year as contending for the Wild card. I hope I am wrong but the pitching is not there and the hitting will cool off. as far as giving up, I am not as i continue to pay my 12k a year for tickets, but i do know when a team is playing poorly and now is that time and quite frankly its the wrong time with a tough week for us and an easy week for detriot.

 

i bet you believe we will win every year. it doesn't happen.

 

No, I don't believe they're going to win every year. But I also don't think we're suddenly going to fall out of the division race after winning a title when we're on pace to win 105 games. Even if we are 6 back, that's still a manageable deficit, especially with the schedule that the Tigers have coming up.

 

The problem is we aren't playing that poorly. We've been winning every series, staying neck and neck with the best team in baseball. We lose one series to another good team and suddenly we're s***. Geez, relax.

[southsideirish71]

If last years performance and greatness automatically translates into next year, then why didnt the BoSox tear threw us. They did win in 2004. Curt Schilling and his bloody sock was a good pitcher, then for some reason he had a hard time breaking 90 and was transformed into a reliever.

 

Resting your hat on 2005 is going to get you squat in 2006. Our pitchers need to execute, and Freddy needs his arm examined or a few weeks rest ala El Duque.

[ZoomSlowik]

If last years performance and greatness automatically translates into next year, then why didnt the BoSox tear threw us. They did win in 2004. Curt Schilling and his bloody sock was a good pitcher, then for some reason he had a hard time breaking 90 and was transformed into a reliever.

 

Resting your hat on 2005 is going to get you squat in 2006. Our pitchers need to execute, and Freddy needs his arm examined or a few weeks rest ala El Duque.

 

First off, their team wasn't entirely entact from the previous year. Losing Pedro was huge, and their bullpen went to s***, especially Foulke. Schilling wasn't right most of the year either. Injuries were a major issue.

 

Second, they still made the playoffs, so the season wasn't a total flop. They ran into a team with a great staff. s*** happens in the playoffs, you never know quite how things will go.

[quickman]

No, I don't believe they're going to win every year. But I also don't think we're suddenly going to fall out of the division race after winning a title when we're on pace to win 105 games. Even if we are 6 back, that's still a manageable deficit, especially with the schedule that the Tigers have coming up.

 

The problem is we aren't playing that poorly. We've been winning every series, staying neck and neck with the best team in baseball. We lose one series to another good team and suddenly we're s***. Geez, relax.

 

 

I am not excited at all. No reason to relax. I am not jumping off a bridge, nor am I a bandwagon fan. I do think 6 games is alot. Hell 2 games seems to be alot and I do think the sox are not playing well. It just shows more against better teams. They need to pitch better. Our starters really do suck right now. 5 ERA's are not going to win you a division.