Middle East conflict

[Rex Kickass]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5163072.stm

 

So I understand the need to protect yourself from attack. I understand the need to protect your own, even if they are in harms way. Like the kidnapped soldier.

 

Here's what I don't understand.

Rocket attacks from Hamas that literally explode in unpopulated areas.

Destroying the only source of power for literally half of the 1.3 million people who live in affected areas. This pretty much also takes away their source of clean drinking water too.

 

Destroying bridges, and houses in the name of security or finding one person.

 

I don't think any side here is right, but the size of destruction that we're seeing over just one person... is both stunning and depressing.

[EvilMonkey]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5163072.stm

 

So I understand the need to protect yourself from attack. I understand the need to protect your own, even if they are in harms way. Like the kidnapped soldier.

 

Here's what I don't understand.

Rocket attacks from Hamas that literally explode in unpopulated areas.

Destroying the only source of power for literally half of the 1.3 million people who live in affected areas. This pretty much also takes away their source of clean drinking water too.

 

Destroying bridges, and houses in the name of security or finding one person.

 

I don't think any side here is right, but the size of destruction that we're seeing over just one person... is both stunning and depressing.

C'mon, Rex, you can't be that blind to the situation. Kick a dog enough times and eventually he will bite, and bite hard. If your neighbor starts lobbing hand grenades into your backyard, how long are you going to stand for it, even if the only thing hurt were your flower garden?Israel pulled out of the strip and gave them complete autonomy there, and what do they do? Use it as a base to further attack Israel. Not to get into the whole who's right/who's wrong debate, but with all the cease fires that the Palis have violated, I wish Irsrael would just turn the whole f***ing place into a parking lot and be done with it. The Palis and their perpetual cries of victimhood make whiny liberals look like conservatives. How about just shutting up, and do something to help your situation other than attacking Israel? Make something, sell something, DO something.

[Rex Kickass]

There is nothing that justifies cutting off 600,000 civilians from power and water. The power station was one of the biggest parts of the private Gazan economy. There are many gazans who have nothing to do with Hamas. Who have nothing to do with terrorism. They just want to make a living, and can't.

[EvilMonkey]

There is nothing that justifies cutting off 600,000 civilians from power and water. The power station was one of the biggest parts of the private Gazan economy. There are many gazans who have nothing to do with Hamas. Who have nothing to do with terrorism. They just want to make a living, and can't.

And they also do nothing to help stop Hamas. Kinda like people closing thier windows when they hear a rape or an assault going out right outside.

[Rex Kickass]

That's like blaming the entire Sunni population for not stopping the Shia militias. Please.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

C'mon, Rex, you can't be that blind to the situation. Kick a dog enough times and eventually he will bite, and bite hard. If your neighbor starts lobbing hand grenades into your backyard, how long are you going to stand for it, even if the only thing hurt were your flower garden?Israel pulled out of the strip and gave them complete autonomy there, and what do they do? Use it as a base to further attack Israel. Not to get into the whole who's right/who's wrong debate, but with all the cease fires that the Palis have violated, I wish Irsrael would just turn the whole f***ing place into a parking lot and be done with it. The Palis and their perpetual cries of victimhood make whiny liberals look like conservatives. How about just shutting up, and do something to help your situation other than attacking Israel? Make something, sell something, DO something.

The wall being built has stopped lots of farmers from getting to their crops (having to get 'permits' which essentially mean "Do the IDF guys working that day really want to let you through today?", not to mention the times where the security just forces them to go through bureaucratic work for laughs) so it is quite difficult to "shut up and do something to help [their] situation". Not to mention apartment buildings get shot with missiles, buildings/bridges/public works projects get toppled (collateral damage) -- it is difficult to do anything. There's something to be said for raising one's self up by their bootstraps but it is difficult to do when they have no bootstraps to speak of.

 

And some good informational reading: http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

 

It's an Israeli run human rights organization detailing what's actually going on.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And they also do nothing to help stop Hamas. Kinda like people closing thier windows when they hear a rape or an assault going out right outside.

 

Nothing to stop Hamas? They put that terrorist organization into power. In my estimation that makes them complicit in every naughty activity Hamas is engaged in.

 

C'mon, Rex, you can't be that blind to the situation. Kick a dog enough times and eventually he will bite, and bite hard. If your neighbor starts lobbing hand grenades into your backyard, how long are you going to stand for it, even if the only thing hurt were your flower garden?Israel pulled out of the strip and gave them complete autonomy there, and what do they do? Use it as a base to further attack Israel.

 

 

A blind man could have seen that coming a mile away. Fact of the matter is that these Palis are nothing more than a bunch of islamo-fascist savages who will stop at nothing to eliminate Isreal once and for all. You give them any measure

 

Not to get into the whole who's right/who's wrong debate, but with all the cease fires that the Palis have violated, I wish Irsrael would just turn the whole f***ing place into a parking lot and be done with it. The Palis and their perpetual cries of victimhood make whiny liberals look like conservatives. How about just shutting up, and do something to help your situation other than attacking Israel? Make something, sell something, DO something.

 

They are incapable of doing that as long as they are conditioned from birth to despise Isreal. Instead of educating these people, Hamas and like minded organizations who run things there are too busy teaching kids how to make explosive vests and how to fire weapons. I dont think there's anything that can be done to help these people until that whole rotten apparatus is brought down.

[Soxy]

. Fact of the matter is that these Palis are nothing more than a bunch of islamo-fascist savages who will stop at nothing to eliminate Isreal once and for all.

Uh-oh, I4E has hacked into Nuke's account!

[Rex Kickass]

I'm pretty sure few people in Palestine voted for terrorism. I'm reasonably sure they voted for basic services that the Fatah party failed to provide while in power. Mostly of their own doing, partially due to other factors.

 

I know this guy who helped administer the elections earlier this year in the Palestinian territory. He told me why Hamas won. People were sick of a corrupt government not providing things necessary for a society to work, so they voted for change. When your first priority is getting your kids fed, you probably aren't so concerned about exactly what happens outside of your situation. Israeli incursions were a way of life during Fatah rule, of course they would be a way of life during Hamas rule. Do you really expect the average palestinian voter to even think of a difference there?

[southsider2k5]

There is nothing that justifies cutting off 600,000 civilians from power and water. The power station was one of the biggest parts of the private Gazan economy. There are many gazans who have nothing to do with Hamas. Who have nothing to do with terrorism. They just want to make a living, and can't.

 

The problem is that Israel has never put up with ANY of the citizens being murdered or kidnapped, so when Palestians do something along those lines they know full well that there will be retaliation. Its kind of like kicking a sleeping pitbull, and then suing when it attacks you afterwards. I know its not that simple, but the organizations that decide to kidnap and kills Israelis don't seem to care that it is their direct actions that lead to the deaths of their fellow Muslims. How much credit falls on their own shoulders because of their actions?

 

 

The wall being built has stopped lots of farmers from getting to their crops (having to get 'permits' which essentially mean "Do the IDF guys working that day really want to let you through today?", not to mention the times where the security just forces them to go through bureaucratic work for laughs) so it is quite difficult to "shut up and do something to help [their] situation". Not to mention apartment buildings get shot with missiles, buildings/bridges/public works projects get toppled (collateral damage) -- it is difficult to do anything. There's something to be said for raising one's self up by their bootstraps but it is difficult to do when they have no bootstraps to speak of.

 

And some good informational reading: http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

 

It's an Israeli run human rights organization detailing what's actually going on.

 

A lot of Israeli lives have been saved by making it nearly impossible for suicide bombers to invade and kill within Israel as well. When the organizations charter running the Palestians territories has it within their charter to destroy and conjour Israel, there aren't many easy solutions to saving your own citizens.

[Balta1701]

The problem is that Israel has never put up with ANY of the citizens being murdered or kidnapped, so when Palestians do something along those lines they know full well that there will be retaliation. Its kind of like kicking a sleeping pitbull, and then suing when it attacks you afterwards. I know its not that simple, but the organizations that decide to kidnap and kills Israelis don't seem to care that it is their direct actions that lead to the deaths of their fellow Muslims. How much credit falls on their own shoulders because of their actions?

On the other hand, I'd say there's even more depth to this mess than you're giving it. The terrorist groups know full well that if they manage to successfully hurt Israel, Israel is going to respond in a measure far more severe than whatever the terrorist group could pull off. Case in point; kidnap 1 soldier, and Israel responds with a near-invasion that kills dozens.

 

But here's the real key point; that's exactly what a terrorist group would want. Why? Because Israel's action only furthers the cause of the terror groups, most notably by helping those terror groups find recruits. When a person's mother dies because Israel cuts off the power and it causes medicine to go bad and become unusable, well, that's the sort of thing that feeds into these terror groups. When an Israeli bomb kills a bunch of people, some of them children, all it does is create even more people willing to fight against Israel. Which is exactly what an organization determined to fight Israel would want.

 

This is how the cycle of violence out there goes. If any of these groups are able to pull off attacks on Israel, they know the Israelis will respond, and it will feed their organizations for years to come.

[StrangeSox]

The cycle of violence is very disheartening. Both groups absolutely hate each other and would like nothing more than to see the other wiped from the face of the earth.

[Rex Kickass]

The problem is that Israel has never put up with ANY of the citizens being murdered or kidnapped, so when Palestians do something along those lines they know full well that there will be retaliation. Its kind of like kicking a sleeping pitbull, and then suing when it attacks you afterwards. I know its not that simple, but the organizations that decide to kidnap and kills Israelis don't seem to care that it is their direct actions that lead to the deaths of their fellow Muslims. How much credit falls on their own shoulders because of their actions?

A lot of Israeli lives have been saved by making it nearly impossible for suicide bombers to invade and kill within Israel as well. When the organizations charter running the Palestians territories has it within their charter to destroy and conjour Israel, there aren't many easy solutions to saving your own citizens.

 

I fail to see where cutting off power and water to 600,000 people is ever an acceptable response to the kidnapping of a 19 year old soldier.

 

If this had been a North Korean, Iranian or Venezuelan reaction to a hostile action, a lot of Israeli defenders would be calling for their heads. Just saying is all. This action is inexcusable.

[Gregory Pratt]

Our response to the Israeli Palestinian situation is pathetic;

Israel's reaction to Palestinians is pathetic;

Palestine's reaction to Israel is pathetic.

 

I can genuinely say that I despise George Bush for putting absolutely no effort into taking action in the Middle East. I despise the Israeli governments refusal to do anything in proportion to the assaults against them. And I despise the Palestinian governments inability to deal with anything using any integrity.

 

And, for any Republicans who are going to defend Bush, let me pre-empt you. It is common knowledge that Bush decided early in his Presidency, according to the Price of Loyalty, because he decided that we should let Israel show strength, the Palestinians would back down, and that would be that. "We need to withdraw from that conflict" was his line of thinking. I think that's alarming, and wrong.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Uh-oh, I4E has hacked into Nuke's account!

[Soxy]

Shut it puppy kicker.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Shut it puppy kicker.

Slander! I don't kick puppies!

 

I drown them.

[EvilMonkey]

When an Israeli bomb kills a bunch of people, some of them children, all it does is create even more people willing to fight against Israel. Which is exactly what an organization determined to fight Israel would want.

So how come when a Muslim bomb blows up innocent Muslims, it doens't spawn more people willing to fight against the terrorists? Hmmm.

[Balta1701]

So how come when a Muslim bomb blows up innocent Muslims, it doens't spawn more people willing to fight against the terrorists? Hmmm.

How many people have you heard about who enlisted in our army after 9/11? (With Israel, it's a bit of a different story, since military service is mandatory there IIRC)

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Our response to the Israeli Palestinian situation is pathetic;

Israel's reaction to Palestinians is pathetic;

Palestine's reaction to Israel is pathetic.

 

I can genuinely say that I despise George Bush for putting absolutely no effort into taking action in the Middle East. I despise the Israeli governments refusal to do anything in proportion to the assaults against them. And I despise the Palestinian governments inability to deal with anything using any integrity.

 

And, for any Republicans who are going to defend Bush, let me pre-empt you. It is common knowledge that Bush decided early in his Presidency, according to the Price of Loyalty, because he decided that we should let Israel show strength, the Palestinians would back down, and that would be that. "We need to withdraw from that conflict" was his line of thinking. I think that's alarming, and wrong.

 

 

Why? What would you have us do? Shall we send in troops to quell the violence? Decades of diplomacy has done ZERO to stop the violence. What other option is there?

[HuskyCaucasian]

I... ummm... like living in Schaumburg, IL

[EvilMonkey]

How many people have you heard about who enlisted in our army after 9/11? (With Israel, it's a bit of a different story, since military service is mandatory there IIRC)

Read what I wrote. How many MUSLIMS have decided to take arms against TERRORISTS after TERRORIST bombs kill INNOCENT MUSLIMS? I am not talking about the increased military enrollment here after 9/11. If Muslims are so quick to want to become terrorists after an Israeli bomb kills innocent people, how come not the reverse when a Muslim bomb kills Muslims?

[Rex Kickass]

Maybe you aren't aware of a country named Turkey.

[kapkomet]

What is this turkey you speak of? Finger licking good!!!

[LowerCaseRepublican]

What is this turkey you speak of? Finger licking good!!!

If Turkey was attacked from the rear, would Greece help?