Middle East conflict

[southsider2k5]

I fail to see where cutting off power and water to 600,000 people is ever an acceptable response to the kidnapping of a 19 year old soldier.

 

If this had been a North Korean, Iranian or Venezuelan reaction to a hostile action, a lot of Israeli defenders would be calling for their heads. Just saying is all. This action is inexcusable.

 

-I fail to see where lobbing missles indiscrimently is ever an acceptable reaction to a wall being built.

-I fail to see where strapping a bomb to oneself and detonating it in the most public place possible is an acceptable reaction to much of anything.

 

This could go both ways for a long time...

 

Our response to the Israeli Palestinian situation is pathetic;

Israel's reaction to Palestinians is pathetic;

Palestine's reaction to Israel is pathetic.

 

I agree 100%. I just wonder why only Israel gets called for their actions. When was the last time a proposal was brought before the UN to condem Palestinian actions?

 

I can genuinely say that I despise George Bush for putting absolutely no effort into taking action in the Middle East. I despise the Israeli governments refusal to do anything in proportion to the assaults against them. And I despise the Palestinian governments inability to deal with anything using any integrity.

 

And, for any Republicans who are going to defend Bush, let me pre-empt you. It is common knowledge that Bush decided early in his Presidency, according to the Price of Loyalty, because he decided that we should let Israel show strength, the Palestinians would back down, and that would be that. "We need to withdraw from that conflict" was his line of thinking. I think that's alarming, and wrong.

I thought we were supposed to stop being the world's police force anyway? Plus I would like to see a source where you got your quote from at the end.

[Rex Kickass]

-I fail to see where lobbing missles indiscrimently is ever an acceptable reaction to a wall being built.

-I fail to see where strapping a bomb to oneself and detonating it in the most public place possible is an acceptable reaction to much of anything.

 

This could go both ways for a long time...

I agree 100%. I just wonder why only Israel gets called for their actions. When was the last time a proposal was brought before the UN to condem Palestinian actions?

I thought we were supposed to stop being the world's police force anyway? Plus I would like to see a source where you got your quote from at the end.

 

SS,

 

You are completely and totally right. Strapping a bomb to yourself is never the answer. Lobbing missiles is never the answer either. However, I just find destroying what little infrastructure that Gaza has in retaliation for the kidnapping of one person to be less than helpful.

[southsider2k5]

SS,

 

You are completely and totally right. Strapping a bomb to yourself is never the answer. Lobbing missiles is never the answer either. However, I just find destroying what little infrastructure that Gaza has in retaliation for the kidnapping of one person to be less than helpful.

 

Don't take it the wrong way, I don't think it is helpful at all. But going by Israels 60 year history, it is to be expected. I guess its just Israel being Israel

 

In all seriousness, their overreactions are part of the reason I belive that Israel still exsists today. Think about it, if they just ignored the problem and tried to find the solider as quietly as possible, like the US, it would send the message to their enemies that they could get away with it. I think the fear of a huge retailliation to some extent prevents lots more attacks because they fear the brutal retribution.

[kapkomet]

In all seriousness, their overreactions are part of the reason I belive that Israel still exsists today. Think about it, if they just ignored the problem and tried to find the solider as quietly as possible, like the US, it would send the message to their enemies that they could get away with it. I think the fear of a huge retailliation to some extent prevents lots more attacks because they fear the brutal retribution.

Something that Americans do not have the guts for. If they did, this "terrorism war" would be over, RIGHT NOW.

[Rex Kickass]

Don't take it the wrong way, I don't think it is helpful at all. But going by Israels 60 year history, it is to be expected. I guess its just Israel being Israel

 

In all seriousness, their overreactions are part of the reason I belive that Israel still exsists today. Think about it, if they just ignored the problem and tried to find the solider as quietly as possible, like the US, it would send the message to their enemies that they could get away with it. I think the fear of a huge retailliation to some extent prevents lots more attacks because they fear the brutal retribution.

 

If that were true, they wouldn't have needed to erect a dozens of mile long "Berlin Wall" type structure along its border. If anything the Israeli example showed that this method doesn't stop terrorism at all.

[southsider2k5]

If that were true, they wouldn't have needed to erect a dozens of mile long "Berlin Wall" type structure along its border. If anything the Israeli example showed that this method doesn't stop terrorism at all.

 

Actually I would argue that it has prevented much more brutal wars and invasions from happening. I won't argue that is a perfect system, but what is when you have sworn enemies committed to your destruction on all sides? People are afraid of Israel and for good reason.

[Balta1701]

Actually I would argue that it has prevented much more brutal wars and invasions from happening. I won't argue that is a perfect system, but what is when you have sworn enemies committed to your destruction on all sides? People are afraid of Israel and for good reason.

I'm sort of missing the connection here, I just fail to see how the wall itself has prevented more brutal "wars" from happening. I can understand how the wall has helped prevent quite a few suicide attacks, and probably prevented associated responses from Israel, but unless you consider what Israel to be doing right now to be fighting a war, I can't see how the wall has fit into that. Syria would not have invaded Israel if there was no wall today, for example.

 

The thing that has prevented more brutal wars involving Israel since, oh, about 1973, has been the Isreali bomb, which has made it so that if countries were successful in driving Israel into the Med, those countries wouldn't exist to celebrate their victory.

[Rex Kickass]

There are 6.5 million Israelis in Israel. Or roughly 1/50th the population of our country.

 

So it stands to reason that 60 terrorism related deaths a year would equate to a problem of 9/11 proportions.

 

Between 2000 and 2006, over 1100 Israelis have been killed due to terrorism. That's has the population impact of 18 9/11s proportionally.

 

Thanks, but I'll pass on the Israeli methods of fighting terrorism.

[Balta1701]

So, The Jerusalem Post is running this:

 

International aid organizations reported on Tuesday morning that basic foodstuffs, including flour, sugar and oil, will run out within a few days.

 

The aid organizations submitted reports on the issue to the UN headquarters in New York.

 

In addition, the organizations will report that water supplies are scarce due to the lack of electricity and that the sewage system was no functional.

In other words, something seems to need to change right now, or a lot more civilians will start dying.

[kapkomet]

Why can't the Palis give up the soldier and just call it a day? /sits and waits for the Isreal is scumsucking power tripping assholes answer... after all the Palis are sooooooooooooooooooooo innocent.

[southsider2k5]

There are 6.5 million Israelis in Israel. Or roughly 1/50th the population of our country.

 

So it stands to reason that 60 terrorism related deaths a year would equate to a problem of 9/11 proportions.

 

Between 2000 and 2006, over 1100 Israelis have been killed due to terrorism. That's has the population impact of 18 9/11s proportionally.

 

Thanks, but I'll pass on the Israeli methods of fighting terrorism.

 

How many Israelis died in wars from 1948-1999? I think you will find it is less than the 1100 over 6 years you just sited.

 

To be honest, I am not sure exactly what Israel is supposed to do. Even after they left Gaza, the Palestians moved in, and began indiscriminately lobbing missles from the very areas that Israel gave back to them. That doesn't exactly seem like it worked to me. They have tried for decades to talk to various countries and leaders who have aided and funded the terrors thron against, Israel, and that hasn't worked. They have tried to involved the UN, the US, England, Eygpt, and anyone else that they could get to sit down with them, and that hasn't worked. They have invaded areas that they were being attacked from, and arrested/assassinated the leaderships of groups trying to exterminate them, and that hasn't worked.

 

In other words, nothing Israel does, short of either walking out of the Holy Lands, or committing mass suicide will stop Palestinians from trying to kill them. Nothing. It is Hama's sworn duty to wipe Israel off of the map. All they care about it minimizing how many of their citizens die. There are fewer people dying of terrorism than of the full blown wars they have fought in the past, so something seems to be working better than just fighting them outright, at least if human death toll is the primary measurement of "success".

 

Also again, what did the group who kidnapped the soldier expect? Israel just to roll over and deal with it? What in their history would have ever indicated that? Also if the things are so bad for all of the civilians, why don't the terrorists just release the soldier?

[Balta1701]

Why can't the Palis give up the soldier and just call it a day? /sits and waits for the Isreal is scumsucking power tripping assholes answer... after all the Palis are sooooooooooooooooooooo innocent.

That would be a logical step on their part.

 

So, let's assume they're idiots and don't do that. I'd say that this blockade is still unsustainable. You can't just starve a people into submission, no matter how stupid their actions are.

[Rex Kickass]

Well if it was good enough for Joe Stalin...

[Pale Hose Jon]

Why can't the Palis give up the soldier and just call it a day? /sits and waits for the Isreal is scumsucking power tripping assholes answer... after all the Palis are sooooooooooooooooooooo innocent.

 

 

So we are going to blame an entire population for the actions of a few. It is not as if the ruling party of Hamas has declared that they comitted that kidnapping and that in some sort of outlandish resolution the entire population stated that they supported the kidnapping.

 

It would be similar to me blaming all americans and myself for the rape and murder of that iraqi women by US soldiers. Please dont blam the whole for the actions of the few

[EvilMonkey]

So we are going to blame an entire population for the actions of a few. It is not as if the ruling party of Hamas has declared that they comitted that kidnapping and that in some sort of outlandish resolution the entire population stated that they supported the kidnapping.

 

It would be similar to me blaming all americans and myself for the rape and murder of that iraqi women by US soldiers. Please dont blam the whole for the actions of the few

Ah, but the Muslim extremists DO blame you for the rape and murder of the Iraqui woman. Just by virtue of being an American, you are marked for death, it is all your fault, and you are their gateway to the 72 virgins. INFIDEL!

 

For a real trip, check out Aljazeera's webpage. They have a story on it about the woman that was raped, with comments. They cerainly paint all Americans with the same brush. Some sample quotes:

• The US has a long history of sending their rapist soldiers back home and denying the aggrieved country justice. If Saddam is being tried for murdering Iraqi's why aren't the US Soldiers tried by the Iraqi's for the rape, murder and mutilation of civilians. The outcome of this trial will surely show the world America's view of itself relative to the rest of the world. If these soldiers don't get the death penalty in the US for this atrocious, barbaric act, It scares me to think what kind of act is worth getting the death penalty.

 

• This soldier is a typical American soldier, this incident is one of thousands in Iraq, This is the real face of America ... Now and then there will be thousands of Bin Laden who will make another 11 of Sep. America is an EVIL nation

 

• They are child rypest, who then burns the young girl and kils the family to hide thier crimes. That was nt the only rype and mruders bushblair regine have done to civilians, it is just the few we knows of. Then the world wonders, y are the Iraqis angry and kil the occupiers. There is just so many atrocities going on in Iraq, we have no idea about. This is the resons for the press buildings bombings and all the journalist who was mrudered, so the info about what are happening to the civilians won't reach the world. We cannot solve today's problems using the mindset that created them, Albert Einstein. If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life, Henry David Thoreau. If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Law never made men a whit more just, Henry David Thoreau.. Peace to the world.

 

• i strongly believe that, what we are watching here is just a tip of an iceberg, it is very easy for american army to rape the girls, kill the men then call for f 16 planes to drop some 500 lbs bombs on victim's house to vaporize all evidence.

 

Thihs is some funny stuff. And I thought wacko fringe-left liberals were crazy! You guys have NOTHING on the people posting here. They even make Iggy seem sane.

 

EDIT:

Here is the link.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11692

Edited July 11, 2006 by EvilMonkey

[Balta1701]

Evil, 2 things in reply. 1: Could you give the link to the specific Al Jazeera page you're talking about?

 

And 2: Yes, there are quite a few people who blame Americans specifically for individual acts taking place overseas. Does that make it right? Does that mean that we should respond by doing the exact same thing?

[Rex Kickass]

Ah, but the Muslim extremists DO blame you for the rape and murder of the Iraqui woman. Just by virtue of being an American, you are marked for death, it is all your fault, and you are their gateway to the 72 virgins. INFIDEL!

 

For a real trip, check out Aljazeera's webpage. They have a story on it about the woman that was raped, with comments. They cerainly paint all Americans with the same brush. Some sample quotes:

• The US has a long history of sending their rapist soldiers back home and denying the aggrieved country justice. If Saddam is being tried for murdering Iraqi's why aren't the US Soldiers tried by the Iraqi's for the rape, murder and mutilation of civilians. The outcome of this trial will surely show the world America's view of itself relative to the rest of the world. If these soldiers don't get the death penalty in the US for this atrocious, barbaric act, It scares me to think what kind of act is worth getting the death penalty.

 

• This soldier is a typical American soldier, this incident is one of thousands in Iraq, This is the real face of America ... Now and then there will be thousands of Bin Laden who will make another 11 of Sep. America is an EVIL nation

 

• They are child rypest, who then burns the young girl and kils the family to hide thier crimes. That was nt the only rype and mruders bushblair regine have done to civilians, it is just the few we knows of. Then the world wonders, y are the Iraqis angry and kil the occupiers. There is just so many atrocities going on in Iraq, we have no idea about. This is the resons for the press buildings bombings and all the journalist who was mrudered, so the info about what are happening to the civilians won't reach the world. We cannot solve today's problems using the mindset that created them, Albert Einstein. If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life, Henry David Thoreau. If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Law never made men a whit more just, Henry David Thoreau.. Peace to the world.

 

• i strongly believe that, what we are watching here is just a tip of an iceberg, it is very easy for american army to rape the girls, kill the men then call for f 16 planes to drop some 500 lbs bombs on victim's house to vaporize all evidence.

 

Thihs is some funny stuff. And I thought wacko fringe-left liberals were crazy! You guys have NOTHING on the people posting here. They even make Iggy seem sane.

 

EDIT:

Here is the link.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11692

 

 

So you're taking reader comments and attributing it to the news service?

 

Isn't that like taking the "I'm so over Scotty Podsednik" thread and equating that to the White Sox are so over SPod?

[EvilMonkey]

So you're taking reader comments and attributing it to the news service?

 

Isn't that like taking the "I'm so over Scotty Podsednik" thread and equating that to the White Sox are so over SPod?

No, I am attributing it to the people that are responding there. Most of the various respondents think all Americans are like the soldier that raped the Iraqi woman. That is the one and only point I was trying to make. Although I did find some interesting reading. I liked this comment left by some whacko.

 

• tim u r right as i came to met americans my self their only source of knowledge is the bias media which is corrupt it self, majority even dont know where their own american states r, thats how dumb they r, im not being mean, but this is reality, their government is controlled by jews amd which makes the majority even if this bush go today another bush will come yesterday, they should remve the jews from all post before they make any further steps

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So we are going to blame an entire population for the actions of a few. It is not as if the ruling party of Hamas has declared that they comitted that kidnapping and that in some sort of outlandish resolution the entire population stated that they supported the kidnapping.

 

It would be similar to me blaming all americans and myself for the rape and murder of that iraqi women by US soldiers. Please dont blam the whole for the actions of the few

 

 

In case you didn't notice, its their stated goal to wipe Isreal off the map. Kidnapping is small potatoes in comparison.

[Pale Hose Jon]

In case you didn't notice, its their stated goal to wipe Isreal off the map. Kidnapping is small potatoes in comparison.

 

 

It is the stated goal of the Hamas Party, not the people of Palestine. Why then do we blame ALL Palestinians for this belief. A majority of palestinains do not support Hamas's goal of wiping out israel. A Majority of people just want to return to a life without a constant struggle. The reason hamas is in power is because the patah party is so unbelievably corrupt. Hamas is not only a terrorist organization, it also provides many of the social services that palestinians enjoy today. Estimates are that around 90% of Hamas's budget goes towards constuction of new schools and hospitals.

 

 

 

 

"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do."

-----Arial Sharon

[LowerCaseRepublican]

It is the stated goal of the Hamas Party, not the people of Palestine. Why then do we blame ALL Palestinians for this belief. A majority of palestinains do not support Hamas's goal of wiping out israel. A Majority of people just want to return to a life without a constant struggle. The reason hamas is in power is because the patah party is so unbelievably corrupt. Hamas is not only a terrorist organization, it also provides many of the social services that palestinians enjoy today. Estimates are that around 90% of Hamas's budget goes towards constuction of new schools and hospitals.

"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do."

-----Arial Sharon

Uh, Chief...you may want to get rid of the quote cuz it has been debunked (there was a bit tadoo about it with the UIUC paper printing it) It was never actually said.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouze_Merham

 

Other than that, your statements about Palestine are pretty spot on. Fatah was so insanely corrupt, the people voted against that + for the social works programs (food, schools, hospitals) that Hamas was providing.

 

http://members.aol.com/drovics/sickp.htm

[Pale Hose Jon]

Uh, Chief...you may want to get rid of the quote cuz it has been debunked (there was a bit tadoo about it with the UIUC paper printing it) It was never actually said.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouze_Merham

 

Crap, i probably shouldnt have used that then in my final research paper for my politics of the middle east class

Edited July 12, 2006 by Pale Hose Jon

[southsider2k5]

Two more IDF soldiers kidnapped...

[YASNY]

I don't know, but if I was surrounded by a bunch of people that wanted to kill me and I had the biggest stick or the most lethal weapon, I think I'd use it. Innocent bystanders be damned.

[Balta1701]

Two more IDF soldiers kidnapped...

Like i said earlier...the gigantic Israeli response this is going to bring is exactly what the terror groups want.