Middle East conflict

[Balta1701]

Reuters

Israel will not demand the immediate disarming of Hizbollah as part of a deal to end the current fighting in Lebanon, a senior Israeli foreign ministry official said on Saturday.

 

Israel's stance could make it easier to reach an agreement with major powers and the Lebanese government on the deployment of a peacekeeping force in south Lebanon.

 

McClatchy newspapers

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declared victory on Saturday after Israel announced it was withdrawing its forces from the southern Lebanese town of Bint Jbail where Israeli troops found unexpected difficulty in dislodging the guerrilla group from its strongholds.

 

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev defended the decision to pull troops from Bint Jbeil, saying Israel had never intended to occupy the town, but Nasrallah's quick declaration of victory underscored the propaganda gains Hezbollah is reaping across the Muslim world as it battles Israel to a stalemate.

 

"The Israelis are ready to halt the aggression because they are afraid of the unknown," Nasrallah said in a speech in which he also expressed measured support for the Lebanese government's efforts to reach a peace agreement.

Israel's really in trouble here. Anything less than what they asked for at first, the total destruction/disarmament of Hezbollah, is going to be viewed as them backing off, surrendering, and will be declared a victory by Hezbollah. The only problem is, the only way they're going to accomplish that goal is to level the entire country of Lebanon and kill everyone there. The air attacks haven't done it, the ground attacks have met a more determined and capable enemy than the Israelis expected, and Hezbollah proved it was able to hit Israel in ways that before this started, no one thought they could.

 

Nasrallah is winning the public image campaign throughout the Middle East, and there really doesn't seem to be anything the Israelis can do to turn the tide right now. The best option seriously might be for the U.S. to step up and demand an immediate cease fire, because then the inevitable cease fire will be imposed from outside, and it might lessen the "Victory" declaration Nasrallah will make whenever the shooting stops and his group still exists.

[Balta1701]

CS Monitor

According to a poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

 

Lebanese no longer blame Hizbullah for sparking the war by kidnapping the Israeli soldiers, but Israel and the US instead.

 

The latest poll by the Beirut Center found that 8 percent of Lebanese feel the US supports Lebanon, down from 38 percent in January.

[YASNY]

Reuters

McClatchy newspapers

 

Israel's really in trouble here. Anything less than what they asked for at first, the total destruction/disarmament of Hezbollah, is going to be viewed as them backing off, surrendering, and will be declared a victory by Hezbollah. The only problem is, the only way they're going to accomplish that goal is to level the entire country of Lebanon and kill everyone there. The air attacks haven't done it, the ground attacks have met a more determined and capable enemy than the Israelis expected, and Hezbollah proved it was able to hit Israel in ways that before this started, no one thought they could.

 

Nasrallah is winning the public image campaign throughout the Middle East, and there really doesn't seem to be anything the Israelis can do to turn the tide right now. The best option seriously might be for the U.S. to step up and demand an immediate cease fire, because then the inevitable cease fire will be imposed from outside, and it might lessen the "Victory" declaration Nasrallah will make whenever the shooting stops and his group still exists.

 

Isreal is never going win a public image campaign in the middle east. Never. I believe the whole of the Arab world would unite to battle Isreal if they thought they could win. That pretty much is what happened in 1967 and will happen again some day. In addition, don't disregard the influence of China in this scenario. They are sitting back pushing buttons and pulling strings in the mideast right now, I believe. They'd love for spiff to hit the fan and then come in and gather the spoils.

[Balta1701]

34 children die in Israeli Air Strike .

 

Israel will slow down/halt operations in southern lebanon for 48 hours in response.

Edited July 30, 2006 by Balta1701

[samclemens]

34 children die in Israeli Air Strike .

 

Israel will slow down/halt operations in southern lebanon for 48 hours in response.

 

i know this is a very pro-israeli news site, but check out the article in regards to this bombing. if anything, it may spark some discussion:

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3283816,00.html#n

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

i know this is a very pro-israeli news site, but check out the article in regards to this bombing. if anything, it may spark some discussion:

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3283816,00.html#n

 

 

There's a lot of speculation involved there but not a lot of evidence. Sounds more to me like Isreal is trying to cover their ass on this one.

[Balta1701]

Shouldn't Iggyd have posted that?

[southsider2k5]

I wonder when the last time Hebollah issued a time out after killing 50 Israeli citizens was?

[WCSox]

Both of you are forgetting the key point...just because the government of those countries says one thing doesn't mean the people of the country won't say the exact opposite. If, for example, Israel and the U.S. really made all-out war against Iran, the Iraqi government we're holding up would probably protest but it couldn't declare war or anything like that, but the Shia population of that country would absolutely explode.

 

I've already said that certain sects of the population would be involved in terrorist action. But the Iraqi government isn't going to throw away American money and American military support while their country is in the midst of a quasi-civil war just to appese the Shia. In other words, the Iraqi military and its munitions would be off-limits. Same goes for Saudi Arabia... the royal family (who doesn't want Iran to become more powerful, BTW) isn't going to throw away American oil revenue to appease their citizens.

 

 

Isreal is never going win a public image campaign in the middle east. Never.

 

Hell, they can't even win one in the U.N., the people that legitimized their nation in the first place. The Israeli military has caught Hezbollah firing on Israel from the backyards of people's homes in Lebanon, yet all we hear out of Kofi Annan's mouth is how the Israelis are slaughtering innocent Lebanese citizens.

[southsider2k5]

Aussie paper offers up "proof" of Hezbollah attacking from residental areas

 

As always the truth is what you want to see in it. Its hard to tell from the couple of pics exactly where they are, and what areas they are in, but it seems fairly plausible.

[WCSox]

Aussie paper offers up "proof" of Hezbollah attacking from residental areas

 

As always the truth is what you want to see in it. Its hard to tell from the couple of pics exactly where they are, and what areas they are in, but it seems fairly plausible.

 

There was Israeli video on Fox News this morning showing rockets being fired out of a residential area.

[Rex Kickass]

This is news, how? It's a guerilla war movement that Hezbollah fights. Of course they have some support of the people in Lebanon. Especially the Shia who live in Southern Lebanon.

 

And frankly if the bombs were falling on my house from Israel, I'd probably side with the people fighting back myself. Six weeks ago, Israel had a chance to affect change by attacking Hezbollah politically and helping the Christians and Druze who wanted a disarmed Hezbollah. They didn't do that, did they?

 

Southsider: to answer your comment, of course Hezbollah hasn't done that. And they wouldn't. Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That's unacceptable. However, Israel's stated goal wasn't bombing shelters of women and children either. It was stopping Hezbollah and making tactical mistakes like that doesn't stop Hezbollah. Even if some families are letting the militias fire from a backyard.

[WCSox]

This is news, how? It's a guerilla war movement that Hezbollah fights. Of course they have some support of the people in Lebanon. Especially the Shia who live in Southern Lebanon.

 

And frankly if the bombs were falling on my house from Israel, I'd probably side with the people fighting back myself. Six weeks ago, Israel had a chance to affect change by attacking Hezbollah politically and helping the Christians and Druze who wanted a disarmed Hezbollah. They didn't do that, did they?

 

Southsider: to answer your comment, of course Hezbollah hasn't done that. And they wouldn't. Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That's unacceptable. However, Israel's stated goal wasn't bombing shelters of women and children either. It was stopping Hezbollah and making tactical mistakes like that doesn't stop Hezbollah. Even if some families are letting the militias fire from a backyard.

 

There's a huge difference from bombs falling on your house for no good reason and bombs falling on your hosue because you're allowing an illegal militia to fire an anti-aircraft gun from your backyard.

 

If Heabollah wants to use human shields, innocent people are going to die. And their blood will be on the hands of Hezbollah, not Israel.

[southsider2k5]

This is news, how? It's a guerilla war movement that Hezbollah fights. Of course they have some support of the people in Lebanon. Especially the Shia who live in Southern Lebanon.

 

And frankly if the bombs were falling on my house from Israel, I'd probably side with the people fighting back myself. Six weeks ago, Israel had a chance to affect change by attacking Hezbollah politically and helping the Christians and Druze who wanted a disarmed Hezbollah. They didn't do that, did they?

 

Southsider: to answer your comment, of course Hezbollah hasn't done that. And they wouldn't. Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. That's unacceptable. However, Israel's stated goal wasn't bombing shelters of women and children either. It was stopping Hezbollah and making tactical mistakes like that doesn't stop Hezbollah. Even if some families are letting the militias fire from a backyard.

 

A mistake is just that... a mistake. The underlying theme as this is portrayed is that Israel is out of control just shooting missiles anywhere and everywhere hoping to get lucky and hit Hezbollah guys, and that seems to not be the reality there. The reality seems to be that these guy are firing missiles from densely populated areas, and then when Israel answers fire, they take the opportunity on the world media stage by dragging out the bodies of all of the dead civilians as proof of Israels aggression, when in fact all it might be proof of is that Israels bombing is much more accurate than was thought because they are hitting the areas they are being fired at from. It seems pretty simple to me, if you don't want civilian areas targeted, don't use them to conduct military operations.

[WCSox]

A Hezbollah missile went right through the roof on a train station in Haifa in the middle of the morning rush hour, yet strangely there was no internatinoal condemnation of Hezbollah for targeting Israeli cititzens.

[Cknolls]

You eat breakfast next to a Katyusha. God Bless You! You die. No tears here.

[KipWellsFan]

A Hezbollah missile went right through the roof on a train station in Haifa in the middle of the morning rush hour, yet strangely there was no internatinoal condemnation of Hezbollah for targeting Israeli cititzens.

 

Ummm, it's pretty obvious that countries aren't expected to waste their time denouncing terrorist activities.

[WCSox]

Ummm, it's pretty obvious that countries aren't expected to waste their time denouncing terrorist activities.

 

Ummm, that makes absolutely no sense, given that a slew of nations denounced the 9/11 attacks and the Madrid and London bombings.

 

It makes even less sense with regard to the Arab world, where popular opinion casts Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance force and not a terrorist organization.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

A Hezbollah missile went right through the roof on a train station in Haifa in the middle of the morning rush hour, yet strangely there was no internatinoal condemnation of Hezbollah for targeting Israeli cititzens.

 

 

Havent you heard? These repressed Islamic people are just expressing their rage at the evil Zionist aggressors to their south.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Salon.com with an interesting article about the myth of Hezbollah hiding among civilians.

 

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/...h/index_np.html

 

Now, to play Devil's Advocate here:

Israel’s response is the usual “oops, sorry” followed by the rationalization that tragedies such as this are “inevitable” because Hezbollah are operating within civilian populations, using said civilians as “human shields”.

 

Let’s remember where this kind of rationalization for death and destruction leaves us, especially considering that every Jewish Israeli over the age of 18 must serve in the military, effectively rendering every single person in Israel a “human shield” for the Israeli war machine.

 

Accordingly, will the deaths of bystanding grandmothers and children in Israel also be considered simply “inevitable” when Hezbollah’s equally stupid and brutal rockets reach populated areas?

 

And why is it okay for the Israelis to call the Canadian prime minister and say "Oops!" for killing those Canadians? Are they just to assume its all cool because they apologized for it half-assedly? Hell, why didn't Hezbollah think of that and get on the blower with Ehud Olmert when their missiles flew into Haifa? Or Al Qaeda calling Georgie to say "My bad about those buildings!"

[WCSox]

Salon.com with an interesting article about the myth of Hezbollah hiding among civilians.

 

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/...h/index_np.html

 

Now, to play Devil's Advocate here:

Israel’s response is the usual “oops, sorry” followed by the rationalization that tragedies such as this are “inevitable” because Hezbollah are operating within civilian populations, using said civilians as “human shields”.

 

Myth, my ass. They have plenty of (video) evidence to back it up, not to mention precedent on Hezbollah's part.

 

Israel has absolutely nothing to gain by killing Lebanese civilians. In fact, doing so harms them significantly. On the other hand, Hezbollah has everything to gain from a PR standpoint by sending innocent Lebanese to slaughter.

 

Let’s remember where this kind of rationalization for death and destruction leaves us, especially considering that every Jewish Israeli over the age of 18 must serve in the military, effectively rendering every single person in Israel a “human shield” for the Israeli war machine.

 

Given that the entire Middle East has been trying to wipe them off of the face of the Earth for the past 60+ years, it's no wonder that Israel needs a "war machine" to survive.

 

Accordingly, will the deaths of bystanding grandmothers and children in Israel also be considered simply “inevitable” when Hezbollah’s equally stupid and brutal rockets reach populated areas?

 

Yes. Unfortunately, it's "inevitable" that terrorist organizations will launch rockets indiscriminately into residential areas in Israel and that the rest of the Arab world won't give a crap because they want all of the Jews dead.

 

And why is it okay for the Israelis to call the Canadian prime minister and say "Oops!" for killing those Canadians? Are they just to assume its all cool because they apologized for it half-assedly? Hell, why didn't Hezbollah think of that and get on the blower with Ehud Olmert when their missiles flew into Haifa? Or Al Qaeda calling Georgie to say "My bad about those buildings!"

 

Your comparison of the Israeli army to al Qaeda and Hezbollah is ridiculous and downright insulting to Jews. While the Israelis have not always "played nice" with their Arab neighbors (though usually in response to an attack), they at least have some regard for human life and have no desire to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth. In fact, quite a few Muslims live in Israel and, IIRC, some even hold office.

Edited August 1, 2006 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

Link

 

``Islamic nations will not forgive the entities that hinder a cease-fire,'' al-Sistani said in a clear reference to the United States.

 

``It is not possible to stand helpless in front of this Israeli aggression on Lebanon,'' he added. ``If an immediate cease-fire in this Israeli aggression is not imposed, dire consequences will befall the region.''

Grand Ayatollah Al-Sistani, basically the man who single handedly has enough power to end the U.S. time in Iraq...openly threatening to do so if the Israeli/Lebanon situation does not end.

[Balta1701]

Myth, my ass. They have plenty of (video) evidence to back it up, not to mention precedent on Hezbollah's part.

 

Israel has absolutely nothing to gain by killing Lebanese civilians. In fact, doing so harms them significantly. On the other hand, Hezbollah has everything to gain from a PR standpoint by sending innocent Lebanese to slaughter.

Given that the entire Middle East has been trying to wipe them off of the face of the Earth for the past 60+ years, it's no wonder that Israel needs a "war machine" to survive.

Yes. Unfortunately, it's "inevitable" that terrorist organizations will launch rockets indiscriminately into residential areas in Israel and that the rest of the Arab world won't give a crap because they want all of the Jews dead.

Your comparison of the Israeli army to al Qaeda and Hezbollah is ridiculous and downright insulting to Jews. While the Israelis have not always "played nice" with their Arab neighbors (though usually in response to an attack), they at least have some regard for human life and have no desire to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth. In fact, quite a few Muslims live in Israel and, IIRC, some even hold office.

So, in the end, we've deteriorated all the way back in our definitions of civilized war to "Well they did it first!". The Israelis bomb the city of Qana over 80 times, basically trying to level the entire city, and keep bombing as the bodies of the children are removed, and continue bombing despite a 48 hour agreement not to bomb, and the response is of course "Yeah well they did it first, and they're evil!"

 

Then Hezbollah responds by firing up missiles which they cannot target and which are certian to kill civilians indiscriminately, and the response from the other side is "well look at what damage Israel has done!"

 

So in the eyes of people here, once a side is chosen, that side does no wrong because the terror done by the other side is justification enough for ANY response.

 

Here's the reality. Israel is literally trying to destroy parts of southern lebanon they feel threaten them. In the former Yugoslavia, we called this Ethnic Cleansing. They are dropping pamphlets saying get out, and considering everyone else to be potential targets. Then they bomb the roads on which refugees are trying to escape. They attack civilian centers and blame the other side for using them as human shields, which is still an attack on a civilian center whether or not their claims are correct. They attack purely civilian institutions, or institutions of the Lebanese army, while claiming they are targeting only Hezbollah. These are war crimes.

 

Hezbollah is a group based in a civilian population center, with huge support amongst those civilians. No matter what happens, they are going to be using Civilians as human shields. Civilians are going to die, because they are launching their attacks from civilian areas. This is a war crime. They are launching missiles which are totally indiscriminate. They are killing civilians, hititng hospitals. This is a war crime.

 

In a truly just world, a United force would intervene, would break up both Hezbollah and the Israeli army, would capture the leadership of both, and would try them all for war crimes.

[WCSox]

Here's the reality. Israel is literally trying to destroy parts of southern lebanon they feel threaten them. In the former Yugoslavia, we called this Ethnic Cleansing. They are dropping pamphlets saying get out, and considering everyone else to be potential targets. Then they bomb the roads on which refugees are trying to escape. They attack civilian centers and blame the other side for using them as human shields, which is still an attack on a civilian center whether or not their claims are correct. They attack purely civilian institutions, or institutions of the Lebanese army, while claiming they are targeting only Hezbollah. These are war crimes.

 

It is difficul to use the term "war crime" here when the instigator is a terrorist organization that doesn't play by the rules of war. Does blowing up a bus full of Israeli civilians in Tel Aviv fall under the "war crimes" definition as well? At least the Israelis told the Lebanese to get out of the region before they attacked.

 

And if you're going to accuse Israel of "ethnic cleansing"... wow... I can't imagine what you'd accuse Iran, Hezbollah, and al Qaeda of.

 

I agree with some of what you say and Israel sure as hell hasn't handled this situation perfectly. But what are they supposed to do? Nearly the entire Arab world wants them all dead... because they're Jews. Just like Hitler and Stalin murdered tens of millions of them in the not-too-distant past... because they're Jews. What the hell would you do if you were in their shoes? Would you try to appease the terrorists who want you dead or would you go after them aggressively to ensure your survival?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Your comparison of the Israeli army to al Qaeda and Hezbollah is ridiculous and downright insulting to Jews. While the Israelis have not always "played nice" with their Arab neighbors (though usually in response to an attack), they at least have some regard for human life and have no desire to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth. In fact, quite a few Muslims live in Israel and, IIRC, some even hold office.

 

 

 

Thats his whole M.O. dude. He just loves to try to draw moral equivalency between terrorists and the civilized world when none exist.