Middle East conflict

[Balta1701]

The new Iraq government can't provide social services? That's another load of crap. They've been doing so for over a year. Also consider that the vast majority of the violence in Iraq is in Baghdad (and mostly becuase Iran and Syria are sending terrorists there), while the rest of the nation is relatively peaceful. And how's that "internal peace" thing going in Hezbollah-run Lebanon? LOL.

The counterpoint I'd give to that is that well, the gigantic deserts of Iraq, yeah, there's very little fighting in those. But the other areas, the areas where people actually are, are simply a disaster. The whole area. You don't hear a lot about it, because a.) we have a shiny new war to pay attention to, b.) the shiny new war isn't yet killing journalists, and c.) it's literally not safe for journalists to leave the Green Zone, so areas outside of Baghdad hardly get noticed.

 

-Here's a sample of yesterday's events outside of Baghdad:

45 Shi'Ite refugees kidnapped near Ramadi

British soldier killed in Basra in a mortar attack

-Roadside bomb hit a fuel truck in Kut, 170 km from Baghdad.

-A member of the Arab Consultative Assembly, a gathering for Arab tribes and political parties, was gunned down in northern Kirkuk, 250 km north of Baghdad, police said.

-A roadside bomb went off near a bus carrying Iraqi soldiers, killing 20 of them and wounding 13 near Tikrit, 175 km (110 miles) north of Baghdad.

-Seven people were killed and 15 wounded when a car bomb exploded beside a police patrol near a hospital in the town of Muqdadiya, 90 km northeast of Baghdad, police said.

-Two policemen were killed and another wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near their patrol in the northern oil city of Kirkuk, police said.

-The bodies of three people were found in Baquba, 65 km north of Baghdad, police said.

 

And that's just the stuff western new sources were able to pick up. There was a series of bombings in Fallujah yesterday also, which included the death of a Priest, according to some Arabic sources (the west seems to simply be unable to get there.)

 

So does the conquering of the West in this country, though not quite the same. As I alluded to in a thread a few weeks ago. Not exactly the same, but similar.

Yes, insurgencies have been put down in the past, but you know what it takes? Genocide. You have to literally kill everyone who might consider fighting you. That's how Saddam put down the Shia rebellion, that's how the U.S. stopped the Native Americans, and so forth. The same thing basically happened in the Philippines, the Americans literally started burning villages, forcing people into concentration camps, etc. But unless that happens, unless Israel is just willing to kill everyone in Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza, Hezbollah will continue to survive and strengthen, just as happened when Israel occupied this exact same territory for 18 years.

 

These are definitely key. The Palestinian state has alredy been proposed by Israel, so that wouldn't be a problem. The international community would begrudgingly get off of their asses and become involved. The neutral Jerusalem would be a sticking point, though. Even if they could be "convinced" under tremendous pressure to give it up, extremists from Both Sides would try to take it back at some point.

Fixed that for you.

[WCSox]

The counterpoint I'd give to that is that well, the gigantic deserts of Iraq, yeah, there's very little fighting in those. But the other areas, the areas where people actually are, are simply a disaster. The whole area. You don't hear a lot about it, because a.) we have a shiny new war to pay attention to, b.) the shiny new war isn't yet killing journalists, and c.) it's literally not safe for journalists to leave the Green Zone, so areas outside of Baghdad hardly get noticed.

 

With Iran and Syria sending jihadists into Iraq, it's no wonder that it's not safe. It's a revolution where, unlike Lebanon, the revolutionaries are actually a military threat to the Islamofascists. Lebanon's weak army and highly pro-Hezbollah population isn't nearly as much of a threat to Iran and Syria. If Tehran and Damascus were to unleash their terrorist forces into Lebanon, it'd be a complete mess as well... and it very well might be in another few months. To automatically assume that Iran and Syria would just allow Lebanon to become a democratic friend to the West is ridiculous.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Yes, one side or the other... implying that both could do it. That's what I meant. Jesus, for the last freaking time, I'm not saying that Israel is beyond reproach. :oldrolleyes

[southsider2k5]

But if 18 years of Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon didn't do a damn thing to cripple or kill Hezbollah, why exactly should we assume that 6 weeks of military campaigning will? You say it's been proven over and over that the status quo won't work there, but I'm going to counter by saying it's been proven over and over and over and over and over that you can't beat an Insurgency using brute force (Soviets in Afghanistan, U.S. in Vietnam, U.S. in Iraq, France in Vietnam and Algeria, Britain in India, Israel in the West Bank, Israel in Lebanon, Russians in Chechnya). Why exactly should we assume that it will be any different this time?

 

So spin that the other way around... What have 60 years of attacking Israel gotten the rest of the middle east? How many Muslims have died because of the repeated invasions and attacks on Israel? How many Hamas/Hebollah etc young men have strapped bombs to themselves and killed innocent Israelis, and what has it gotten them? Nothing. As a matter of a fact, at times it has made things much worse for the average Palestinian or other people who were occupied at times by Israel. None of this has stopped Israel from exsisting, which is their clearly stated and repeated goal, so if 18 years of history are clear enough to learn from, 60 years must be WAY more than enough right? Why don't the groups who insist on perpetually attacking Israel learn their lessons and leave them alone?

[Balta1701]

So spin that the other way around... What have 60 years of attacking Israel gotten the rest of the middle east? How many Muslims have died because of the repeated invasions and attacks on Israel? How many Hamas/Hebollah etc young men have strapped bombs to themselves and killed innocent Israelis, and what has it gotten them? Nothing. As a matter of a fact, at times it has made things much worse for the average Palestinian or other people who were occupied at times by Israel. None of this has stopped Israel from exsisting, which is their clearly stated and repeated goal, so if 18 years of history are clear enough to learn from, 60 years must be WAY more than enough right? Why don't the groups who insist on perpetually attacking Israel learn their lessons and leave them alone?

You're 100% right, and if somehow that happened, this would all be over, and that'd be quite nice. But the reality is, that's just not going to happen as long as the area surrounding Israel is dotted with these failed states that just dump out terrorists. The sad truth is that this is just a cycle. Israel levels an area in response to terrorism, the leveled area produces more terrorists out of those who lost everything, and those terrorists wind up causing the next Israeli incursion.

 

If we could expect everyone to behave logically, things would be a lot easier, but we just can't, and expecting people to do so only gets you into worse traps. That's where the whole "Yes, we're bombing you, but you should support us instead of Hezbollah because that's the only way the bombing will stop" idea comes from. It sounds wonderful in a message board, but to the person with the planes flying over his head and his house in ruins from an Israeli bomb, he's just not going to blame Hezbollah.

[Jenksismyhero]

The counterpoint I'd give to that is that well, the gigantic deserts of Iraq, yeah, there's very little fighting in those. But the other areas, the areas where people actually are, are simply a disaster. The whole area. You don't hear a lot about it, because a.) we have a shiny new war to pay attention to, b.) the shiny new war isn't yet killing journalists, and c.) it's literally not safe for journalists to leave the Green Zone, so areas outside of Baghdad hardly get noticed.

 

-Here's a sample of yesterday's events outside of Baghdad:

45 Shi'Ite refugees kidnapped near Ramadi

British soldier killed in Basra in a mortar attack

-Roadside bomb hit a fuel truck in Kut, 170 km from Baghdad.

-A member of the Arab Consultative Assembly, a gathering for Arab tribes and political parties, was gunned down in northern Kirkuk, 250 km north of Baghdad, police said.

-A roadside bomb went off near a bus carrying Iraqi soldiers, killing 20 of them and wounding 13 near Tikrit, 175 km (110 miles) north of Baghdad.

-Seven people were killed and 15 wounded when a car bomb exploded beside a police patrol near a hospital in the town of Muqdadiya, 90 km northeast of Baghdad, police said.

-Two policemen were killed and another wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near their patrol in the northern oil city of Kirkuk, police said.

-The bodies of three people were found in Baquba, 65 km north of Baghdad, police said.

 

 

I'm so tired of this hippy BS. For some reason people opposed to the war lost all sense of logic and any grasp on reality. Let's rewind the tape 5 years. What do you think happened on a daily basis in Iraq when Saddam was in power, assuming there were 50 gazillion journalists from all over the world watching/covering every inch of the country (including all of the hidden bunkers/jails)??

 

More importantly, look at our own country on a daily basis. People die, women get raped, businesses are robbed, accidents happen and people get hurt.

 

For Christs sake stop holding our troops and government up to the task of creating Heaven in the middle of Hell. I've had multiple family members (both high level and low) come back with EXTREMELY POSITIVE outlooks on the future of the Iraqi people. What you don't hear, and what is often not reported because it fails to sell papers, is that everyday schools open, hospitals open, public works projects are finished and overall life continues to get better and better. Is it dangerous and unstable? Sure, but so what? It's progress albeit at a snails pace.

[IlliniBob72]

You're 100% right, and if somehow that happened, this would all be over, and that'd be quite nice. But the reality is, that's just not going to happen as long as the area surrounding Israel is dotted with these failed states that just dump out terrorists. The sad truth is that this is just a cycle. Israel levels an area in response to terrorism, the leveled area produces more terrorists out of those who lost everything, and those terrorists wind up causing the next Israeli incursion.

 

If we could expect everyone to behave logically, things would be a lot easier, but we just can't, and expecting people to do so only gets you into worse traps. That's where the whole "Yes, we're bombing you, but you should support us instead of Hezbollah because that's the only way the bombing will stop" idea comes from. It sounds wonderful in a message board, but to the person with the planes flying over his head and his house in ruins from an Israeli bomb, he's just not going to blame Hezbollah.

 

Sounds like the only solution is to turn the Middle East into one large parking lot.

[Rex Kickass]

The new Iraq government can't provide social services? That's another load of crap. They've been doing so for over a year. Also consider that the vast majority of the violence in Iraq is in Baghdad (and mostly becuase Iran and Syria are sending terrorists there), while the rest of the nation is relatively peaceful. And how's that "internal peace" thing going in Hezbollah-run Lebanon? LOL.

 

Baghdad gets electricity 8 hours out of the day. There are 24 hours in the Iraqi day.

 

The oil pipeline reconstruction project that the Americans and Iraqis have been working to increase revenue for the government has still not been completed two years behind schedule.

 

An effort to create 140 primary health clinics in Iraq have created all of 20 three years into the project.

 

Before last month, Beirut had health care, electricity AND a tourism industry. So yeah, I'd say that the Iraqi government's administration of social services would be not as good as the Lebanese administration of social services.

[WCSox]

Baghdad gets electricity 8 hours out of the day. There are 24 hours in the Iraqi day.

 

The oil pipeline reconstruction project that the Americans and Iraqis have been working to increase revenue for the government has still not been completed two years behind schedule.

 

An effort to create 140 primary health clinics in Iraq have created all of 20 three years into the project.

 

Before last month, Beirut had health care, electricity AND a tourism industry. So yeah, I'd say that the Iraqi government's administration of social services would be not as good as the Lebanese administration of social services.

 

Terrorist proxies of Iran and Syria destroy the infrastructure of Iran every day. They were not doing so in Lebanon until Hezbollah baited Israel into a war. Again, it's a ridiculous comparison.

 

If you really think that Iran and Syria would allow a West-friendly democracy in Lebanon, you're living in La-La Land. In just the past year and a half, Damascus ordered the assasination of Hariri and Tehran provoked the Israelis into a war via Hezbollah. Both of these incidents were staged to send the nation into chaos and prevent democracy.

[Balta1701]

Baghdad gets electricity 8 hours out of the day. There are 24 hours in the Iraqi day.

Actually, if you average over the whole year, it's down to less than 6 hours per day, with several months coming in around 4.

 

Terrorist proxies of Iran and Syria destroy the infrastructure of Iraq every day. They were not doing so in Lebanon until Hezbollah baited Israel into a war. Again, it's a ridiculous comparison.

 

If you really think that Iran and Syria would allow a West-friendly democracy in Lebanon, you're living in La-La Land. In just the past year and a half, Damascus ordered the assasination of Hariri and Tehran provoked the Israelis into a war via Hezbollah. Both of these incidents were staged to send the nation into chaos and prevent democracy.

Suggesting that the insurgents in Iraq are all either foreign fighters or are even on the side of Syria and Iran really shows how little you actually understand that entire situation, given that the insurgency which did so much damage, sparked the civil war, and had the Administration talking about foreign fighters was a Sunni-based insurgency, and Iran is the dominant Shi'a country and would like nothing better than for the current government in Iraq to become entrenched. Oh, and I assume you meant Iraq, not Iran, so I fixed that.

[Rex Kickass]

Balta: you haven't figured this out. Anything that happens in Iraq is clearly the fault of Iran and Syria. And anything that happens in Lebanon is clearly the fault of the Lebanese.

[WCSox]

Actually, if you average over the whole year, it's down to less than 6 hours per day, with several months coming in around 4.

Suggesting that the insurgents in Iraq are all either foreign fighters or are even on the side of Syria and Iran really shows how little you actually understand that entire situation, given that the insurgency which did so much damage, sparked the civil war, and had the Administration talking about foreign fighters was a Sunni-based insurgency, and Iran is the dominant Shi'a country and would like nothing better than for the current government in Iraq to become entrenched. Oh, and I assume you meant Iraq, not Iran, so I fixed that.

 

You're right. Not all of the insurgents in Iraq are Shia who are being supplied with manpower, weaopns, and money from Iran and Syria. Quite a few of them are Sunni Al Qaeda. And not all of the terrorists are foreigners. But quite a bit of the money and weapons that they're getting are from abroad. And, yes, quite a few of the insurgents in Iraq are VERY loyal to Iran, which was the entire basis for Saddam's invasion back in the '80s.

 

I didn't suggest that ALL of the insurgents in Iraq are foreign fighters, but feel free to continue misrepresenting my posts and using those false statements as evidence that I understand "little" about the situation.

 

Balta: you haven't figured this out. Anything that happens in Iraq is clearly the fault of Iran and Syria.

 

Yes, that's EXAXTLY what I said.

 

And anything that happens in Lebanon is clearly the fault of the Lebanese.

 

And apparently the Lebanese government was on the verge of kicking Hezbollah's ass into submission, completely removing Syria and Iran's influence, and becoming a utopian-like decmocracy before those stupid Israelis started this war.

Edited August 2, 2006 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

And apparently the Lebanese government was on the verge of kicking Hezbollah's ass into submission, completely removing Syria and Iran's influence, and becoming a utopian-like decmocracy before those stupid Israelis started this war.

They were a lot closer a month ago than they are now.

[WCSox]

They were a lot closer a month ago than they are now.

 

LOL!

 

Was that before or after Hezbollah amassed enough weapons to destroy the Lebanese army?

Edited August 2, 2006 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

You're right. Not all of the insurgents in Iraq are Shia who are being supplied with manpower, weaopns, and money from Iran and Syria. Quite a few of them are Sunni Al Qaeda. And not all of the terrorists are foreigners. But quite a bit of the money and weapons that they're getting are from abroad. And, yes, quite a few of the insurgents in Iraq are VERY loyal to Iran, which was the entire basis for Saddam's invasion back in the '80s.

 

I didn't suggest that ALL of the insurgents in Iraq are foreign fighters, but feel free to continue misrepresenting my posts and using those false statements as evidence that I understand "little" about the situation.

Ok, so I shouldn't have used the word all, or even most. But I think the evidence is strong that the foreign fighters have played almost a miniscule role in the insurgency. The U.S. efforts at closing the border have done nothing to stop the insurgency, despite the fact that the U.S. has done a decent job securing most of those borders (it's actually fairly easy to secure some of these areas, since most people trying to cross them wind up dead anyway).

 

Most estimates of foreigners present in the Sunni part of the insurgency have been in the hundreds, while estimates of how many Iraqi Sunnis were part of the insurgency have been in the tens of thousands. Including estimates by the U.S. military. And furthermore, there is as far as I know very little evidence that their arms are actually coming from abroad, or that they'd even need to bring them in from abroad, given how many of Saddam's munitions were around at the time of the U.S. invasion and disappeared afterwards.

 

The one thing you do have partially right is that while the insurgency doesn't need a lot of funding, the Sunni part of it has tapped into some of the same pipelines as Al Qaeda. The Shi'ite part of it is just an arm of the government, which is where many of its supplies have come from. Kidnapping and corruption have also dumped huge amounts of cash into both sides.

[Soxbadger]

My problem with the idea that the Lebanese were going to do something to Hezbollah, but just didnt get around to it is:

 

Why are they doing nothing now?

 

I havent heard one story that went something like:

 

Lebanese police officers, capture Hezbollah leaders.

 

or

 

Lebanese army captures Hezbollah militants.

 

or

 

Lebanese govt declares war on Hezbollah.

 

Those are the reactions you expect when a govt really condemns something. What I see is tacit condonation.

[Balta1701]

My problem with the idea that the Lebanese were going to do something to Hezbollah, but just didnt get around to it is:

 

Why are they doing nothing now?

 

I havent heard one story that went something like:

 

Lebanese police officers, capture Hezbollah leaders.

 

or

 

Lebanese army captures Hezbollah militants.

 

or

 

Lebanese govt declares war on Hezbollah.

 

Those are the reactions you expect when a govt really condemns something. What I see is tacit condonation.

Why are they doing nothing now? Because they're scared to go outside because they will probably be caught in an exploding building. And because Israel's invasion has sparked a massive surge of support for Hezbollah throughout that country, which has taken the conversation in their government from "is there anything we can do to disarm Hezbollah" "what else can we do to support Hezbollah".

 

Just remember this, having Israel bomb the crap out of Lebanon will make the Lebanese hate Israel, not Hezbollah. You can not bomb people enough to make them like you and hate your opponents.

[Soxbadger]

Balta,

 

That argument is flawed.

 

It suggests that the people in Lebanon who blame the Israeli's would have ever sided with the Israeli's. I do not agree, if you had any inclination to side with the Isreali's, you would still side with them. Israel was attacked by Hezbollah, not the other way around. I do not understand how you can blame the country who was attacked for responding.

 

There is nothing that Israel can do. Israel has sat on its hands for decades as the powers that be around them try and come up with plans and strategies to ensure their destruction. The Israeli's have bent over backwards to create stability by handing over prescious land to various middle east countries, and in the end it does nothing. There is no good will created. the people do not say "Wow, Israel got attacked and then gave the land back, what an honorable country." Instead they want more, more land, more power, they want there to be no Israel.

 

So in the end, the position Israel has to take is;

 

Who the f cares what the countries that surround us think?

 

When they (Lebanon and other Middle East countries) actually do something, not just placate western society with their words about how they are going to stop terrorism, how they are going to work towards peace, then maybe they should be given some credibility. But right now, they have 0.

 

So I do not believe the Lebanese, if they truely wanted this to stop, it would stop. This is all about the freing of terrorists, something that the US and the rest of the world has to stand strong on. You can not give into releasing terrorists by the threat of more terror. If anything you must take that threat, and show the terrorists that you have no fear. That any threat they make will be retaliated against far worse than anything they can imagine.

 

Either they all live in peace, or they all live in fear. The Lebanese, Hezbollah, and many other would love Israeli's to live in constant fear. And now the Israeli govt is letting them walk a mile in their shoes.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Soxbadger

[Cknolls]

Actually, if you average over the whole year, it's down to less than 6 hours per day, with several months coming in around 4.

Suggesting that the insurgents in Iraq are all either foreign fighters or are even on the side of Syria and Iran really shows how little you actually understand that entire situation, given that the insurgency which did so much damage, sparked the civil war, and had the Administration talking about foreign fighters was a Sunni-based insurgency, and Iran is the dominant Shi'a country and would like nothing better than for the current government in Iraq to become entrenched. Oh, and I assume you meant Iraq, not Iran, so I fixed that.

 

 

Hamadi Candle Co. anyone?

[southsider2k5]

Balta,

 

That argument is flawed.

 

It suggests that the people in Lebanon who blame the Israeli's would have ever sided with the Israeli's. I do not agree, if you had any inclination to side with the Isreali's, you would still side with them. Israel was attacked by Hezbollah, not the other way around. I do not understand how you can blame the country who was attacked for responding.

 

There is nothing that Israel can do. Israel has sat on its hands for decades as the powers that be around them try and come up with plans and strategies to ensure their destruction. The Israeli's have bent over backwards to create stability by handing over prescious land to various middle east countries, and in the end it does nothing. There is no good will created. the people do not say "Wow, Israel got attacked and then gave the land back, what an honorable country." Instead they want more, more land, more power, they want there to be no Israel.

 

So in the end, the position Israel has to take is;

 

Who the f cares what the countries that surround us think?

 

When they actually do something, not just placate western society with their words about how they are going to stop terrorism, how they are going to work towards peace, then maybe they should be given some credibility. But right now, they have 0.

 

So I do not believe the Lebanese, if they truely wanted this to stop, it would stop. This is all about the freing of terrorists, something that the US and the rest of the world has to stand strong on. You can not give into releasing terrorists by the threat of more terror. If anything you must take that threat, and show the terrorists that you have no fear. That any threat they make will be retaliated against far worse than anything they can imagine.

 

Either they all live in peace, or they all live in fear. The Lebanese, Hezbollah, and many other would love Israeli's to live in constant fear. And now the Israeli govt is letting them walk a mile in their shoes.

 

See also Strip, Gaza.

 

Israel gives it back to the Palestinians, and immediately Hamas uses it to launch rockets from there into Israel. I don't think surrendering to them really won their hearts and minds either. In reality this has been going on since pre-history. These people have always, and will always, hate each other. I really believe that there is nothing that anyone can do to stop the killing. Slamming Israel for everytime that they kill someone is pointless, as it it impossible to pick out one point in time to start condeming one side for, because you can always go back to the happening by the other side right before that for justification. Its war, people get killed. It has been going on for thousands of years or so, and will probably go on until one side nukes the otherside and everyone else has to leave the area.

[Balta1701]

But here's the problem with both the examples of Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories; both of them are failed states. Lebanon suffered through decades of civil war and occupation by both Israel and Syria, and had only had its own, functioning government for about a year. The Palestinian territories have never really had a functioning government; Hamas literally does more for the people there than the PA under Arafat ever did. Both of them are failed states, where people are unemployed, hungry, surrounded by corrpution, crime and death, and so on. In other words, those 2 states were in no position to be able to crack down on the terrorists in their midst, because they're in ruins, and they're not being given any chance to pull themselves out of ruins.

 

For an alternate example, we can go right next door to look at a non-failed state, Egypt. Egypt was at war with Israel for roughly 30 years, until the Camp David Accords. Now, a fairly strong terrorist group actually formed in Egypt, with one of its goals being the destruction of Israel; Islamic Jihad. You may have heard of one of it's founders; Ayman Al Zawahiri.

 

Now, what happened when that group started working in Egypt? Egypt cracked down ruthlessly on it. There have been no major attacks in Egypt for many years, now, and it's members have basically moved on, to places like Afghanistan and the Palestinian territories; other failed states.

 

Do the people in Egypt like Israel? Of course not. Do they march against the country? Yes. Are they blowing themselves up to stop Israel? Not so much. The state there has actually contained the cancers growing inside it, and it is cutting off the lifeblood of Islamic Jihad, by giving the people there the alternative option of a better life. And where do their remaining Egyptian recruits come? From the slums in Cairo, the areas where the people still don't have a shot. Despite the far larger population of Egypt, it produces far fewer terrorists than the Gaza Strip does.

 

The real key here is whether or not these people have hopes for better lives. In failed states, like Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, they really don't, which is why Hezbollah and Hamas have thrived there. But in countries which have had time to develop actual strength, institutions, and economies, there are far fewer terrorist recruits, and they are far more effective at confronting them.

 

The only way you're going to put an end to this problem is to put an end to the failed states. You literally have to fight the poverty and suffering that gives rise to these groups. And you can not bomb people out of poverty either.

 

Lebanon was at a very early stage along a path that would hopefully one day take them away from being a terrorist-causing failed state after the Cedar Revolution. They had an army, their economy was growing, and there was starting to be some impetus for disarming Hezbollah. It would have taken years for this movement to actually bear fruit, and I can give you no guarantees that it would, but I can guarantee one thing now; it never will. Lebanon has been raized to the ground again by Israel, and it has another decade of rebuilding to even have a chance to get to the point it was at before this operation began.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Balta,

 

That argument is flawed.

 

It suggests that the people in Lebanon who blame the Israeli's would have ever sided with the Israeli's. I do not agree, if you had any inclination to side with the Isreali's, you would still side with them. Israel was attacked by Hezbollah, not the other way around. I do not understand how you can blame the country who was attacked for responding.

 

There is nothing that Israel can do. Israel has sat on its hands for decades as the powers that be around them try and come up with plans and strategies to ensure their destruction. The Israeli's have bent over backwards to create stability by handing over prescious land to various middle east countries, and in the end it does nothing. There is no good will created. the people do not say "Wow, Israel got attacked and then gave the land back, what an honorable country." Instead they want more, more land, more power, they want there to be no Israel.

 

So in the end, the position Israel has to take is;

 

Who the f cares what the countries that surround us think?

 

When they (Lebanon and other Middle East countries) actually do something, not just placate western society with their words about how they are going to stop terrorism, how they are going to work towards peace, then maybe they should be given some credibility. But right now, they have 0.

 

So I do not believe the Lebanese, if they truely wanted this to stop, it would stop. This is all about the freing of terrorists, something that the US and the rest of the world has to stand strong on. You can not give into releasing terrorists by the threat of more terror. If anything you must take that threat, and show the terrorists that you have no fear. That any threat they make will be retaliated against far worse than anything they can imagine.

 

Either they all live in peace, or they all live in fear. The Lebanese, Hezbollah, and many other would love Israeli's to live in constant fear. And now the Israeli govt is letting them walk a mile in their shoes.

 

 

Excellent post Badger.

[WCSox]

Ok, so I shouldn't have used the word all, or even most. But I think the evidence is strong that the foreign fighters have played almost a miniscule role in the insurgency. The U.S. efforts at closing the border have done nothing to stop the insurgency, despite the fact that the U.S. has done a decent job securing most of those borders (it's actually fairly easy to secure some of these areas, since most people trying to cross them wind up dead anyway).

 

The U.S. can't even secure it's own border. What makes you think that they can secure Iraq's?

 

I strongly disagree that "foreign fighters have played almost a miniscule role in the insurgency." Take Zarqawi, for example. He's Jordanian-born, and has spend most of his life in Jordan, Afghanistan, and Iran... he's pretty much a jihad-for-hire guy who goes wherever he can to fight. He only came to Iraq for medical treatment and only stayed because some Islamofascists were fighting the Kurds in the north. He brought money, weapons, and training to this insurgency. That makes him worth more than 100 random angry Iraqi guys who have no freaking clue how to blow up a building or kidnap a Haliburton employee.

 

Most estimates of foreigners present in the Sunni part of the insurgency have been in the hundreds, while estimates of how many Iraqi Sunnis were part of the insurgency have been in the tens of thousands. Including estimates by the U.S. military. And furthermore, there is as far as I know very little evidence that their arms are actually coming from abroad, or that they'd even need to bring them in from abroad, given how many of Saddam's munitions were around at the time of the U.S. invasion and disappeared afterwards.

 

You need to look past the sheer numbers. Who's supplying the funding? Who's supplying the weapons? Who's supplying the know-how? Something tells me that Ahmed Average in Iraq who can barely keep his family fed isn't spending hundreds of U.S. dollars on explosive devices. He's not obtaining them from the U.S.-controlled Iraqi military and probably doesn't know how to put them together himself if he could get his hands on the parts. And, hell, there probably isn't a Lowe's down the street from his house, either. There's no doubt that most of the "ground soldiers" in the insurgency are Iraqi-born, but they're not the important ones. The important ones are the ones who supply the money, weapons, and training... and the ones who are inciting the violence.

 

And even though the Suni and Shiia don't like each other, they'd been living on top of each other under Saddam's rule for 30+ years. And now all of the sudden, they're armed to the teeth with machine guns, rocket lauchers, and IEDs. I seriously doubt that they've all just been stashing these weapons in their basements for the past 30 years. And I'll bet that the vast majority of them didn't even know how to use a machine gun until one of Zarqawi's buddies showed them. These people lived right beside each other for 30+ years and are now engaged in a bloody civil war. Why? Because professional (and mostly foreign) terrorists have incited it. It's not because they just felt like starting a bloodbath for the heck of it.

 

The one thing you do have partially right is that while the insurgency doesn't need a lot of funding, the Sunni part of it has tapped into some of the same pipelines as Al Qaeda. The Shi'ite part of it is just an arm of the government, which is where many of its supplies have come from. Kidnapping and corruption have also dumped huge amounts of cash into both sides.

 

OK, so we agree on ONE thing.

 

 

Lebanon was at a very early stage along a path that would hopefully one day take them away from being a terrorist-causing failed state after the Cedar Revolution. They had an army, their economy was growing, and there was starting to be some impetus for disarming Hezbollah. It would have taken years for this movement to actually bear fruit, and I can give you no guarantees that it would, but I can guarantee one thing now; it never will. Lebanon has been raized to the ground again by Israel, and it has another decade of rebuilding to even have a chance to get to the point it was at before this operation began.

 

Again, blaming Israel for Lebanon not becoming the thriving democracy that they were possibly going to be at some point way down the road... maybe.

 

How about blaming the U.N. for not enforcing its resolution to disarm Hezbollah. Why not blame Syria for assasinating Hariri? Why not blame Iran for moving a ton of weapons into Hezbollah strongholds and using Syria as a conduit? Why not blame the Lebanese government for allowing these weapons to be transported into their "sovereign" state and, oh, allowing a freaking terrorist milita control the entire southern portion of their nation. Why not blame Hezbollah for going across the border to kidnap Israeli soldiers?

 

I can understand your anger, but PLEASE... put the goddamn blame where it's due.

 

 

Excellent post Badger.

 

I second that.

Edited August 2, 2006 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

You need to look past the sheer numbers. Who's supplying the funding? Who's supplying the weapons? Who's supplying the know-how? Something tells me that Ahmed Average in Iraq who can barely keep his family fed isn't spending hundreds of U.S. dollars on explosive devices. He's not obtaining them from the U.S.-controlled Iraqi military and probably doesn't know how to put them together himself if he could get his hands on the parts. And, hell, there probably isn't a Lowe's down the street from his house, either. There's no doubt that most of the "ground soldiers" in the insurgency are Iraqi-born, but they're not the important ones. The important ones are the ones who supply the money, weapons, and training... and the ones who are inciting the violence.

 

And even though the Suni and Shiia don't like each other, they'd been living on top of each other under Saddam's rule for 30+ years. And now all of the sudden, they're armed to the teeth with machine guns, rocket lauchers, and IEDs. I seriously doubt that they've all just been stashing these weapons in their basements for the past 30 years. And I'll bet that the vast majority of them didn't even know how to use a machine gun until one of Zarqawi's buddies showed them. These people lived right beside each other for 30+ years and are now engaged in a bloody civil war. Why? Because professional (and mostly foreign) terrorists have incited it. It's not because they just felt like starting a bloodbath for the heck of it.

OK, so we agree on ONE thing.

Do you have any idea of how many munitions there were floating around Iraq, both in the Iraqi army, and outside the Iraqi army, before the war? The amounts are absolutely staggering. I'll give you a couple examples. In the middle of 2003, some NGO's, like HRW, were wandering around screaming to the coalition forces that there were huge ammo dumps that were going unguarded, not just the ones at Al-Qaqaa that we heard about during the 2004 campaign. HRW told the British about a stockpile of about 20 truckloads near where the British were headquartered. The British responded that they didn't have enough men to secure that area as well.

 

Beyond that, the coalition/Iraqi military has been ungodly careless with its armaments. Here's one article about how 200,000 Kalashnikov's somehow managed to disappear as they were entering Iraq headed for the Iraqi army.

 

The Iraqi army was armed to the teeth with weapons. Those weapons are now almost entirely in the hands of whoever got their hands on them during the looting spree. Literally thousands of tons of explosives, enough weapons to equip an entire army for 20 years, and so on. Do you really think that there are convoys with significant quantities of armaments capable of crossing the Iraqi border today? With multiple car bombs per day? That's a pretty remarkable claim on its face, and it really suggests that the people running that war have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

[samclemens]

Do you have any idea of how many munitions there were floating around Iraq, both in the Iraqi army, and outside the Iraqi army, before the war? The amounts are absolutely staggering. I'll give you a couple examples. In the middle of 2003, some NGO's, like HRW, were wandering around screaming to the coalition forces that there were huge ammo dumps that were going unguarded, not just the ones at Al-Qaqaa that we heard about during the 2004 campaign. HRW told the British about a stockpile of about 20 truckloads near where the British were headquartered. The British responded that they didn't have enough men to secure that area as well.

 

Beyond that, the coalition/Iraqi military has been ungodly careless with its armaments. Here's one article about how 200,000 Kalashnikov's somehow managed to disappear as they were entering Iraq headed for the Iraqi army.

 

The Iraqi army was armed to the teeth with weapons. Those weapons are now almost entirely in the hands of whoever got their hands on them during the looting spree. Literally thousands of tons of explosives, enough weapons to equip an entire army for 20 years, and so on. Do you really think that there are convoys with significant quantities of armaments capable of crossing the Iraqi border today? With multiple car bombs per day? That's a pretty remarkable claim on its face, and it really suggests that the people running that war have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

 

...and your proposed solution to the situation? thats what i thought.

[Pale Hose Jon]

The Israeli's have bent over backwards to create stability by handing over prescious land to various middle east countries, and in the end it does nothing. There is no good will created. the people do not say "Wow, Israel got attacked and then gave the land back, what an honorable country." Instead they want more, more land, more power, they want there to be no Israel.

 

 

 

Maybe i was daydreaming through two years of Middle East politics classes, but when did Israel hand over any land?