Middle East conflict

[Balta1701]

Maybe i was daydreaming through two years of Middle East politics classes, but when did Israel hand over any land?

Actually they did, they handed back Southern Lebanon to Lebanese control in 2000, and they pulled their forces out of Gaza, along with many of their settlements, last year.

[Rex Kickass]

Pulling their forces out of Gaza is a relative term. They never really fully withdrew, still maintaining checkpoints within the strip.

[southsider2k5]

Pulling their forces out of Gaza is a relative term. They never really fully withdrew, still maintaining checkpoints within the strip.

 

They did force their own people out at gunpoint.

[Rex Kickass]

I'm not talking about settlers, I'm talking about military.

[southsider2k5]

But here's the problem with both the examples of Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories; both of them are failed states. Lebanon suffered through decades of civil war and occupation by both Israel and Syria, and had only had its own, functioning government for about a year. The Palestinian territories have never really had a functioning government; Hamas literally does more for the people there than the PA under Arafat ever did. Both of them are failed states, where people are unemployed, hungry, surrounded by corrpution, crime and death, and so on. In other words, those 2 states were in no position to be able to crack down on the terrorists in their midst, because they're in ruins, and they're not being given any chance to pull themselves out of ruins.

 

For an alternate example, we can go right next door to look at a non-failed state, Egypt. Egypt was at war with Israel for roughly 30 years, until the Camp David Accords. Now, a fairly strong terrorist group actually formed in Egypt, with one of its goals being the destruction of Israel; Islamic Jihad. You may have heard of one of it's founders; Ayman Al Zawahiri.

 

Now, what happened when that group started working in Egypt? Egypt cracked down ruthlessly on it. There have been no major attacks in Egypt for many years, now, and it's members have basically moved on, to places like Afghanistan and the Palestinian territories; other failed states.

 

Wait a second. What is the difference between Egypt cracking down on the Muslim Brotherhood, and Israel cracking down on Hezbollah? To me the only difference is that Hezbollah ran back into Lebannon and hid amongst the civilian population. In reality, Israel is cracking down on Hezbollah right now. Why is a positive when Egypt does it, but Israel shouldn't counteract when suffering not only terror attacks, but invasion, kidnappings, and rocket attacks at the hands of a similar organization?

 

Also to counter your point about them destroyed and moving on, the Brotherhood currently holds 20% of the seats in Egypt's Parliment, forming the largest opposition block to the current government. Their block would have been much larger in reality, but many of their members were arrested prior to the "open" elections, and the rest were forced to run as "independants". There is still an active debate as to whether they should stay banned or not. Granted you got the part about them not carrying out attacks in Egypt lately right, but still to categorize them as "moved on" is completely wrong.

 

Do the people in Egypt like Israel? Of course not. Do they march against the country? Yes. Are they blowing themselves up to stop Israel? Not so much. The state there has actually contained the cancers growing inside it, and it is cutting off the lifeblood of Islamic Jihad, by giving the people there the alternative option of a better life. And where do their remaining Egyptian recruits come? From the slums in Cairo, the areas where the people still don't have a shot. Despite the far larger population of Egypt, it produces far fewer terrorists than the Gaza Strip does.

 

The real key here is whether or not these people have hopes for better lives. In failed states, like Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, they really don't, which is why Hezbollah and Hamas have thrived there. But in countries which have had time to develop actual strength, institutions, and economies, there are far fewer terrorist recruits, and they are far more effective at confronting them.

 

The only way you're going to put an end to this problem is to put an end to the failed states. You literally have to fight the poverty and suffering that gives rise to these groups. And you can not bomb people out of poverty either.

 

Lebanon was at a very early stage along a path that would hopefully one day take them away from being a terrorist-causing failed state after the Cedar Revolution. They had an army, their economy was growing, and there was starting to be some impetus for disarming Hezbollah. It would have taken years for this movement to actually bear fruit, and I can give you no guarantees that it would, but I can guarantee one thing now; it never will. Lebanon has been raized to the ground again by Israel, and it has another decade of rebuilding to even have a chance to get to the point it was at before this operation began.

 

If the Palestians themselves were so important to the rest of the middle east, and not just a pawn to a political gain, they would have been taken care of a long time ago. With all of the worry about the plight of these people living in poverty within ghettos and refugee camps, why has not one middle eastern country, let alone all of them finally said "stop the violence, stop the destruction and loss of life, come live with us, and we will take care of you as our Muslim brothers"? If you split the people of these "failed states" amongst the vast size and wealth of the rest of the Islamic middle east alone, not to mention places like Indonesia, the Palestinians would barely be a blip when blended into the current populations. Within a generation or two they would be completely absorbed into their new countries and no one would ever know the difference. Even if they didn't want to bring them into their own countries, within the vast expanses of countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc, they could have carved off a piece of land and gave it to them as their own, if they were really interested in supplying the Palestians their own state independant of anyone else. To me a solution like that would prove more to me that they were interested in peace than any Syrian missle or terror attack could ever prove.

 

You want to know why it will never happen? Because then the toltarian governments of the middle east lose their biggest diversion to their own shortcomings. In general they could give a care less to the plight of their "brothers" or they would be offering to shelter and feed them, instead of giving them bombs and terror advice.

 

Heck even the Cedar Revolution that you so proudly point to as a central arguement only happened because Syria had Lebanon's President killed, not because there was some revolutionary lust for freedom within the people. The want for freedom only happened after Syria committed basically an act of war, and the people of Lebanon finally hit their breaking point. If Rafik Hariri were still alive, Syria would still control Lebanon, and Hezbollah would still be chucking rockets into Israel, as they would still be getting supplies from Iran and Syria.

[southsider2k5]

34 children die in Israeli Air Strike .

 

Israel will slow down/halt operations in southern lebanon for 48 hours in response.

 

So now it turns out those numbers might have been a little bit lower than first reported... More like half.

 

http://www.nysun.com/article/37288

 

Since the initial casualty estimates of Qana of nearly 60 dead, those numbers have been revised to 28.

 

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745828.html

 

On Wednesday, Human Rights Watch questioned the death toll in the Qana attack. The international group listed the names of 28 known dead from the attack and said that 13 others were missing and might still be buried under the rubble. The discrepancy was attributed to an assumption that only nine of the people who took shelter in the basement of the building survived, but it emerged that at least 22 escaped, the group said.

[Balta1701]

HRW also came out with another interesting 50 page report yesterday taking a look at the Israeli assault and whether or not it was actually complying with the rules of war. They concluded that it clearly was not. Here's bits from their summary, the full report can be found at the link.

 

“The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military’s disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel’s indiscriminate warfare.” ...

 

Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.

 

In one case, an Israeli air strike on July 13 destroyed the home of a cleric known to have sympathy for Hezbollah but who was not known to have taken any active part in the hostilities. Even if the IDF considered him a legitimate target (and Human Rights Watch has no evidence that he was), the strike killed him, his wife, their 10 children and the family’s Sri Lankan maid.

 

On July 16, an Israeli aircraft fired on a civilian home in the village of Aitaroun, killing 11 members of the al-Akhrass family, among them seven Canadian-Lebanese dual nationals who were vacationing in the village when the war began. Human Rights Watch independently interviewed three villagers who vigorously denied that the family had any connection to Hezbollah. Among the victims were children aged one, three, five and seven.

 

The Israeli government has blamed Hezbollah for the high civilian casualty toll in Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah fighters have hidden themselves and their weapons among the civilian population. However, in none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in the report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah was operating in or around the area during or prior to the attack.

 

“Hezbollah fighters must not hide behind civilians – that’s an absolute – but the image that Israel has promoted of such shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong,” Roth said. “In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around.”

[samclemens]

HRW also came out with another interesting 50 page report yesterday taking a look at the Israeli assault and whether or not it was actually complying with the rules of war. They concluded that it clearly was not. Here's bits from their summary, the full report can be found at the link.

 

as compared to the tactics of hezbollah? its not like hezbollah targets civilians or anything...

Edited August 3, 2006 by samclemens

[Balta1701]

as compared to the tactics of hezbollah? its not like hezbollah targets civilians or anything...

As usual, I immediately get the "It's ok, the other side does it too, and they're evil, so war crimes are ok!" argument.

 

Since I expected this, I have the link handy, here is HRW's critique of Hezbollah's tactics, which they also say are war crimes. Here are HRW's calls to Syria and Iran asking those countries to use their influence to ask Hezbollah to follow the rules of war.

[WCSox]

You can't fight terrorism effectively by playing by "the rules of war."

[Soxbadger]

Pale Hose Jon,

 

If you look even further back to the wars since 1950, the Israeli's have given back even more land. They had parts of the Sinia Peninsula...

 

After Israel handed back the Sinai peninsula in return for peace with Egypt in 1982, Israeli troops forcibly evacuated 2,000 Jewish settlers from their homes in a Sinai settlement called Yamit.

 

 

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/golnpc.htm

 

People have already correctly mentioned the more recent ones.

 

Its not a crime to sleep during class, but it is just lazy to not do the research on the internet.

[samclemens]

As usual, I immediately get the "It's ok, the other side does it too, and they're evil, so war crimes are ok!" argument.

 

Since I expected this, I have the link handy, here is HRW's critique of Hezbollah's tactics, which they also say are war crimes. Here are HRW's calls to Syria and Iran asking those countries to use their influence to ask Hezbollah to follow the rules of war.

 

im not rationalizing. israel does not target civilians, as opposed to hezbollah. shame on hezbollah for intentionally using lebanese civilians as human sheilds. every single one of the attacks has been at sites that were associated with hezbollah, including the bombing of the UN observers and the one where all the children died. thats tough spiff if hizbollah can dish it out but they cant take it- they have to go, for good.

 

i know you are not so naive as to think that iran and syria are going to do anything to promote peace in the area, or that any kind of diplomatic solution will work with hezbollah. if that is what you are saying, give me a break.

 

bottom line, hezbollah is a TERRORIST organization. israel is justified in destroying hezbollah. hezbollah started this war by crossing the israeli border and kidnapping soldiers. give credit where credit is due. ive yet to see you even admit hezbollah are terrorists. are you mark malloch brown posting in disguise or something?

[Pale Hose Jon]

Actually they did, they handed back Southern Lebanon to Lebanese control in 2000, and they pulled their forces out of Gaza, along with many of their settlements, last year.

 

 

God Bless Israel for handing back land that they illegally took. Why i appreciate it every time that a burgler returns items that he has stolen. They deserve great praise. The only reason that Israel gave back gaza was that they had to have 50,000 troops defending 8,000 settlers. The same time that they hand back gaza they increased settlement building in the West Bank. Whic was once again against intenational law. So yes we should totally praise Israel for violating international law and UN security council resolutions. OH Wait... Israel has violated more resolutions than Iraq, I wonder why we havent invaded them?

[samclemens]

God Bless Israel for handing back land that they illegally took. Why i appreciate it every time that a burgler returns items that he has stolen. They deserve great praise. The only reason that Israel gave back gaza was that they had to have 50,000 troops defending 8,000 settlers. The same time that they hand back gaza they increased settlement building in the West Bank. Whic was once again against intenational law. So yes we should totally praise Israel for violating international law and UN security council resolutions. OH Wait... Israel has violated more resolutions than Iraq, I wonder why we havent invaded them?

 

you seem to be very astute on your israeli-arab conflict history. would you mind telling us all what led to the israelis taking the sinai peninsula? what led to them occupying all of the land outside of israel that they have occupied or are occupying? perhaps its because...they were attacked first? oops, i know, its easy to forget what actually caused the sinai occupation.

[WCSox]

im not rationalizing. israel does not target civilians, as opposed to hezbollah. shame on hezbollah for intentionally using lebanese civilians as human sheilds. every single one of the attacks has been at sites that were associated with hezbollah, including the bombing of the UN observers and the one where all the children died. thats tough spiff if hizbollah can dish it out but they cant take it- they have to go, for good.

 

If a terrorist militia is going to attack a sovereign nation and then hide behind innocent civilians, some innocent civilians are going to die. It's a shame, but that's what happens. And it won't stop until these civilians take action to expel these terrorist scumbags from their neighborhoods.

[Pale Hose Jon]

Pale Hose Jon,

 

If you look even further back to the wars since 1950, the Israeli's have given back even more land. They had parts of the Sinia Peninsula...

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/golnpc.htm

 

People have already correctly mentioned the more recent ones.

 

Its not a crime to sleep during class, but it is just lazy to not do the research on the internet.

 

 

 

 

 

Well how bout taking some time to look at Un Resolution 242. Which demanded that Israel give back the land that it took becuase it was determined that it was against international law.

 

Exact wording of the Clause

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that Israel never gave land back, i am saying it wasn't their land to give back in the first place.

[Balta1701]

im not rationalizing. israel does not target civilians, as opposed to hezbollah. shame on hezbollah for intentionally using lebanese civilians as human sheilds. every single one of the attacks has been at sites that were associated with hezbollah, including the bombing of the UN observers and the one where all the children died. thats tough spiff if hizbollah can dish it out but they cant take it- they have to go, for good.

 

i know you are not so naive as to think that iran and syria are going to do anything to promote peace in the area, or that any kind of diplomatic solution will work with hezbollah. if that is what you are saying, give me a break.

 

bottom line, hezbollah is a TERRORIST organization. israel is justified in destroying hezbollah. hezbollah started this war by crossing the israeli border and kidnapping soldiers. give credit where credit is due. ive yet to see you even admit hezbollah are terrorists. are you mark malloch brown posting in disguise or something?

Except of course, the entire report I just linked to was dedicated to proving the part in bold wrong, with scores of evidence behind their statement.

 

Yes, some of the Israeli attacks have killed civilians because Hezbollah was using them as human shields, which of course is a war crime, and which HRW has already condemned.

 

Yes, of course Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, and if there was a rational way for Israel to destroy it, that would be a great thing. It is committing war crimes repeatedly, and if there were any way to put the leadership of that organization in jail, it should be done, and they should face war crimes prosecution.

 

But here's what I can't get the other side to admit: Israel is not justified in doing anything and everything to destroy Hezbollah. Israel is not allowed to commit war crimes, or directly target civilian installations with no possible military value, just as Hezbollah is not, under the rules of war.

 

you seem to be very astute on your israeli-arab conflict history. would you mind telling us all what led to the israelis taking the sinai peninsula? what led to them occupying all of the land outside of israel that they have occupied or are occupying? perhaps its because...they were attacked first? oops, i know, its easy to forget what actually caused the sinai occupation.

Um, actually, when the Israelis occupied the Sinai, it was in the 1967 war, in which Israel was not attacked first, they struck first, in one of the most brilliant surprise attacks in the history of warfare. Yes, Nasser was likely to attack Israel within a few years had Israel not struck first, but Israel was not attacked in '67.

[Soxbadger]

Now your arguing semantics.

 

My statement was:

 

Israel has given back land.

 

And if you read UN 242, you will know that it was not binding on any party. The Israeli's still needed to make their own peace treaty with Egypt in 1979, where as 242 was adopted in 1967. That means it took a full 12 years before Israel, followed resolution 242, and shows that Israel could have chosen not to do it if they wished.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nation...t_of_Resolution

 

And how wasnt it their land to give back?

 

Is New Mexico not the US because we took it from Mexico?

 

After a war that you win, when you acquire the land, it is yours. The only way that the land goes back is; 1) it is recaptured, or 2) there is a peace treaty in which part of the terms cede back the captured land. In this case, Israel captured significant territory and then as part of an agreement for peace, gave it back.

 

That seems to be exactly what I said Israel has done in the past.

[Pale Hose Jon]

you seem to be very astute on your israeli-arab conflict history. would you mind telling us all what led to the israelis taking the sinai peninsula? what led to them occupying all of the land outside of israel that they have occupied or are occupying? perhaps its because...they were attacked first? oops, i know, its easy to forget what actually caused the sinai occupation.

 

 

Ummmm, i'm pretty sure that israel invaded the Sinai. Isreal invaded the Sinai after Egypt blockaded israeli troops from entering a strait between egypt and Saudi Arabia. I don't think that you can classify this as Israel being "attacked" first, it seems that it is the other way around.

[IlliniBob72]

Thank God the HRW wasn't around in WWII. Hitler may still be safely holed up in Berlin while the Russians surrounded the city.

 

It is utterly ridiculous to cry about the tactics used against terrorists who use hospitals, mosques, schools, and residences as bases to wage their hit and run war. It is unfortunate that the Lebanese people have Hezbollah terrorists operating in their midsts, but it is their government that has done nothing. Hezbollah was supposed to be disarmed, so said the mighty UN. In the last few weeks, they have fired over 2000 rockets. Thank God for the UN!

 

Lebanon was well on their way to a flourishing democracy? Bully for Lebanon. So, how many Israeli soldiers need to be kidnapped from Israeli soil before they can become impatient with Lebanese progress? A dozen? A score? Maybe 40 Israeli soldiers taken before they are allowed to say, "Ya know, Lebanon, we admire your progress towards democracy, but we're going to come in and wipe out the terrorists in your country that you are unable to control. Nice knowing you"

[WCSox]

But here's what I can't get the other side to admit: Israel is not justified in doing anything and everything to destroy Hezbollah. Israel is not allowed to commit war crimes, or directly target civilian installations with no possible military value , just as Hezbollah is not, under the rules of war.

 

"No possible military value", my ass. Hezbollah stockpiles weapons in those sites. They fire rockets from people's backyards. They stash weapons in homes.

 

It's easy for you to sit behind your computer and criticize Israel, but try putting yourself in their shoes. Imagine that you're surrounded by terrorist-sponsoring states that want you, your family, and everybody else in your country DEAD... and they'll gladly sacrifice their own lives to achieve that goal. Imagine that terrorists have killed members of your family and/or friends. Now multiply that by 6 million and then add 50+ years of violence on top of it. What do you do? Negotiations haven't worked in the past. Prisoner exchange hasn't deterred the kidnappings. The response from Israel withdrawl from Gaza and Southern Lebanon was more terrorist attacks. The U.N. and Europe haven't done anything for you. I mean, really... what are the options at this point? Diplomacy has done nothing. Acts of good faith are seen as signs of weakness by the Islamofascists and encourage more attacks. What do you do at this point if YOU'RE an Israeli?

Edited August 3, 2006 by WCSox

[Cknolls]

HRW also came out with another interesting 50 page report yesterday taking a look at the Israeli assault and whether or not it was actually complying with the rules of war. They concluded that it clearly was not. Here's bits from their summary, the full report can be found at the link.

 

 

Do they get any support from Hizbollah? You would think that Israel is fighting in the wrong country if you believe this crap.

 

im not rationalizing. israel does not target civilians, as opposed to hezbollah. shame on hezbollah for intentionally using lebanese civilians as human sheilds. every single one of the attacks has been at sites that were associated with hezbollah, including the bombing of the UN observers and the one where all the children died. thats tough spiff if hizbollah can dish it out but they cant take it- they have to go, for good.

 

i know you are not so naive as to think that iran and syria are going to do anything to promote peace in the area, or that any kind of diplomatic solution will work with hezbollah. if that is what you are saying, give me a break.

 

bottom line, hezbollah is a TERRORIST organization. israel is justified in destroying hezbollah. hezbollah started this war by crossing the israeli border and kidnapping soldiers. give credit where credit is due. ive yet to see you even admit hezbollah are terrorists. are you mark malloch brown posting in disguise or something?

 

 

Shame on you!! Hizbollah is a charitable organization. Just ask them.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Cknolls

[Balta1701]

Thank God the HRW wasn't around in WWII. Hitler may still be safely holed up in Berlin while the Russians surrounded the city.

 

It is utterly ridiculous to cry about the tactics used against terrorists who use hospitals, mosques, schools, and residences as bases to wage their hit and run war. It is unfortunate that the Lebanese people have Hezbollah terrorists operating in their midsts, but it is their government that has done nothing. Hezbollah was supposed to be disarmed, so said the mighty UN. In the last few weeks, they have fired over 2000 rockets. Thank God for the UN!

Ah, so finally I get you guys to start admitting it...you don't think that any of the rules of war should exist.

 

So here's my question to anyone who agrees with him...why exactly do you think Saddam Hussein should be in prison? He was facing possible insurrections that threatened the lives of his army, the people in his regime, and his regime itself. He responded to that with whatever force he had available to him, whether it was collective punishment against large civilian populations, torture, random imprisonments, etc.

 

You guys are sitting here arguing to me that Israel should have the right to do whatever it wants in fighting a campaign against folks you label terrorists, rules of war be damned. So why does that not apply to Hussein? Why did that not apply to Milosevic?

[Cknolls]

im not rationalizing. israel does not target civilians, as opposed to hezbollah. shame on hezbollah for intentionally using lebanese civilians as human sheilds. every single one of the attacks has been at sites that were associated with hezbollah, including the bombing of the UN observers and the one where all the children died. thats tough spiff if hizbollah can dish it out but they cant take it- they have to go, for good.

 

i know you are not so naive as to think that iran and syria are going to do anything to promote peace in the area, or that any kind of diplomatic solution will work with hezbollah. if that is what you are saying, give me a break.

 

bottom line, hezbollah is a TERRORIST organization. israel is justified in destroying hezbollah. hezbollah started this war by crossing the israeli border and kidnapping soldiers. give credit where credit is due. ive yet to see you even admit hezbollah are terrorists. are you mark malloch brown posting in disguise or something?

 

 

Shame on you!! Hizbollah is a charitable organization. Just ask them.

[Balta1701]

"No possible military value", my ass. Hezbollah stockpiles weapons in those sites. They fire rockets from people's backyards. They stash weapons in homes.

So, in other words, it's ok for Israel to level ANYONE's backyard, because Hezbollah is making use of some people's back yards.