Middle East conflict

[kapkomet]

Sure it wouldn't work. We're 'poison' to most of the world, because of the rhetoric that's spewed forth every day. To be clear, on both sides, the rhetoric is spewed.

[Balta1701]

Personally, I think that the made-in-the-USA bombs falling from American made fighter jets have something to do with it as well, but I'll leave it at that.

[kapkomet]

Yep, we're EVIL for supporting Israel in any way, shape, or form. EVVVVVVVVILLLLL...

[Balta1701]

Yep, we're EVIL for supporting Israel in any way, shape, or form. EVVVVVVVVILLLLL...

Because it's impossible to have any legitimate criticisms of the U.S., or think that the government isn't always 100% correct in all of it's actions, without hating American and determining that every single thing America ever does is Evil.

 

And I'm sure it's wrong of the Israelis to dislike Iran for shipping Missiles to Hezbollah right? Because you're supposed to like the people who build the bombs raining down on you.

[kapkomet]

When one's stated mission is to DESTROY you, you have a pretty good reason to hate them.

 

We don't go around saying we're going to destroy nations because of religious beliefs. There's the difference.

[Rex Kickass]

So as much as I hate to admit it, I gotta pass out some Kudos to John Bolton at the UN. Somehow he managed to work enough with the French to get a ceasefire through the Security Council that has some teeth. Although we couldn't be the "honest broker" alone, by teaming up with France we were able to put together a solution that, if it holds, will help acheive Israeli goals in the region while potentially preserving Lebanese democracy.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So as much as I hate to admit it, I gotta pass out some Kudos to John Bolton at the UN. Somehow he managed to work enough with the French to get a ceasefire through the Security Council that has some teeth. Although we couldn't be the "honest broker" alone, by teaming up with France we were able to put together a solution that, if it holds, will help acheive Israeli goals in the region while potentially preserving Lebanese democracy.

 

 

Everybody hated Bolton but it looks like he's doing quite a job over there.

[Rex Kickass]

I wouldn't say "quite a job" but in this important circumstance, he's done pretty well.

[Rex Kickass]

Israel/Lebanon by the numbers.

 

The death toll in Lebanon is somewhat disputed, although the AP pegs that number around 845 based on a variety of sources.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/ap_on_...y_the_numbers_1

 

LEBANON:

 

* Deaths: 845 total -- 743 civilians, 34 soldiers and 68 Hezbollah. Israel says it killed about 530 guerrillas. The Higher Relief Council put the overall death toll at 1,181 and said one-third were children and the majority were civilians.

 

* Wounded: 4,051.

 

* Number of buildings destroyed: More than 15,000 homes -- houses or individual apartments within buildings. About 900 commercial structures, including farms and factories. ...

 

* Damage to transportation system: 400 miles of roads; 80 bridges; the international airport.

 

* Overall damage: At least $3.5 billion to infrastructure; $9.4 billion overall, including clean up of a major oil spill from an Israeli strike on a storage facility at a Beirut power plant.

 

* Access to water and electricity was severely interrupted. About $180 million in damage to the electricity grid; $70 million to the water treatment and delivery system.

 

ISRAEL:

 

* Deaths: 157 total -- 118 soldiers and 39 civilians.

 

* Wounded: 860.

 

* Number of buildings destroyed: no official figures, but tax authorities report more than 6,000 claims for damaged buildings and more are expected as displaced people return home. ...

 

* Damage to transportation system: Not immediately available.

 

* Overall damage: Media reports say about $3 billion in damages and lost revenue, but do not give a source for that estimate. Israeli Finance Minister Avraham Hirschon could give no precise figure but said it would be "many billions."

 

* Access to water and electricity: Isolated water and electricity lines hit; repairs made within 48 hours.

[EvilMonkey]

* Deaths: 845 total -- 743 civilians, 34 soldiers and 68 Hezbollah. Israel says it killed about 530 guerrillas. The Higher Relief Council put the overall death toll at 1,181 and said one-third were children and the majority were civilians.

 

* Wounded: 4,051.

 

* Number of buildings destroyed: More than 15,000 homes -- houses or individual apartments within buildings. About 900 commercial structures, including farms and factories. ...

 

* Damage to transportation system: 400 miles of roads; 80 bridges; the international airport.

 

* Overall damage: At least $3.5 billion to infrastructure; $9.4 billion overall, including clean up of a major oil spill from an Israeli strike on a storage facility at a Beirut power plant.

 

* Access to water and electricity was severely interrupted. About $180 million in damage to the electricity grid; $70 million to the water treatment and delivery system.

 

* Having terrorists as your friends, neighbors and allies, priceless.

[Balta1701]

Israel launched a commando raid inside Lebanon yesterday. One Israeli soldier was killed and 2 were wounded when Hezbollah set up an ambush for them...the Israelis tried to pass through a Hezbollah checkpoint in trucks, messed up the arabic greeting, and the Hez guys got suspicious. They let them pass and set up an ambush at the next checkpoint.

 

Israel says it was interdicting to try to stop a shipment of weapons coming across from Syria. This of course seems to make no sense, because there's no good reason to risk men to stop a shipment of weapons when you can stop any truck or vehicle from above with a bomb. This was an attempt to capture something or someone. That's the only reason it makes sense to risk men on the ground.

 

The Lebanese gov't has called this a violation of the cease fire.

[samclemens]

* Deaths: 845 total -- 743 civilians, 34 soldiers and 68 Hezbollah. Israel says it killed about 530 guerrillas. The Higher Relief Council put the overall death toll at 1,181 and said one-third were children and the majority were civilians.

 

* Wounded: 4,051.

 

* Number of buildings destroyed: More than 15,000 homes -- houses or individual apartments within buildings. About 900 commercial structures, including farms and factories. ...

 

* Damage to transportation system: 400 miles of roads; 80 bridges; the international airport.

 

* Overall damage: At least $3.5 billion to infrastructure; $9.4 billion overall, including clean up of a major oil spill from an Israeli strike on a storage facility at a Beirut power plant.

 

* Access to water and electricity was severely interrupted. About $180 million in damage to the electricity grid; $70 million to the water treatment and delivery system.

 

* Having terrorists as your friends, neighbors and allies, priceless.

 

golden!

[Cknolls]

So as much as I hate to admit it, I gotta pass out some Kudos to John Bolton at the UN. Somehow he managed to work enough with the French to get a ceasefire through the Security Council that has some teeth. Although we couldn't be the "honest broker" alone, by teaming up with France we were able to put together a solution that, if it holds, will help acheive Israeli goals in the region while potentially preserving Lebanese democracy.

 

PARIS, Aug. 20 — The shaky, United Nations-brokered cease-fire in Lebanon suffered another blow on Sunday when the European countries that had been called upon to provide the backbone of a peacekeeping force delayed a decision on committing troops until the mission is more clearly defined.

 

Their reservations postponed any action on the force at least until Wednesday, when the European Union will take up the issue.

 

Haunted by their experiences in Bosnia in the 1990’s, when their forces were unable to stop widespread ethnic killing, European governments are insisting upon clarifying the chain of command and rules of engagement before plunging into the even greater complexities of the Middle East.

 

“In the past, when peacekeeping missions were not properly defined, we’ve seen major failures,’’ a spokeswoman for the French Foreign Ministry, Agnès Romatet-Espagne, said Sunday. “There are the bad memories of Bosnia. This time we want the answers beforehand, so we don’t come to the problems when they have happened.’’

 

In addition, a senior French official said, “Italy, Spain and Finland have raised the same questions as France has.” Following the usual diplomatic practice, the official asked not to be identified. A spokesman for the Spanish Foreign Ministry said Spain was willing to send troops, “but the rules have to be clarified and agreed on.”

 

Some countries, like Australia, which has placed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, have flatly refused to commit troops. “We have no intention of making any significant contribution,” said a senior Australian government official, who was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter. “We don’t have any confidence in it. It is not going to have the mandate to disarm Hezbollah.”

 

Kudos to France and Bolton, seems to be working really well.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGK9KLVH41.DTL

 

 

 

LMAO. Incompetence knows no bounds at Turtle Bay!

[kapkomet]

The UN is not going to get there, nor was it ever. Smoke and mirrors.

[Balta1701]

The UN is not going to get there, nor was it ever. Smoke and mirrors.

I doubt anyone really believed that there were countries willing to go in and fight and disarm Hezbollah instead of Israel, even when they signed the cease fire. I think the reality is that the cease fire was basically an admission by both sides that Status Quo antebellum was a better situation than having a lot of fighting, because Israel was not getting anywhere with its armed incursion against Hezbollah, and the nation of Lebanon was sort of running out of things that could be bombed.

 

Think about this...the U.S. started off the Lebanon campaign with our government saying things like this:

"For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East -- and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course."

Now, we're saying things like this:

"The first reaction, of course, of Hezbollah and its supporters is, declare victory. I guess I would have done the same thing if I were them. But sometimes it takes people a while to come to the sober realization of what forces create stability and which don't. Hezbollah is a force of instability."

. We've gone from thinking that Israel would just crush Hezbollah in weeks and the whole world would be safer to basically admitting that there's nothing we can do to get rid of Hezbollah by military action right now, so we've gone from saying "we want a lasting peace before there's a cease fire" to "give us the damn cease fire."

 

If there was any real thought that anything more could have been done to weaken Hez, the U.S. wouldn't have allowed the cease fire, Israel wouldn't have signed on, and the Israeli government wouldn't be on the verge of falling.

 

So what happens? The U.S. pushes for clauses in the U.N. resolution calling for things it knows won't happen, because a.) it gives the U.S. leverage in negotiations on other fronts, because if France isn't helping out here, we can use that as a diplomatic club to bash them with the next time we disagree on something, and because b.) we can blame the U.N. for the failure to have Hezbollah disarmed instead of blaming the fact that it's impossible to beat them militarily. That way, the U.N. becomes a scapegoat for why things didn't work out, while our government never has to acknowledge that the idea of bombing away a guerrilla resistance group is just as flawed today as it was in the 1770's.

[samclemens]

If there was any real thought that anything more could have been done to weaken Hez, the U.S. wouldn't have allowed the cease fire, Israel wouldn't have signed on, and the Israeli government wouldn't be on the verge of falling.

 

So what happens? The U.S. pushes for clauses in the U.N. resolution calling for things it knows won't happen, because a.) it gives the U.S. leverage in negotiations on other fronts, because if France isn't helping out here, we can use that as a diplomatic club to bash them with the next time we disagree on something, and because b.) we can blame the U.N. for the failure to have Hezbollah disarmed instead of blaming the fact that it's impossible to beat them militarily. That way, the U.N. becomes a scapegoat for why things didn't work out, while our government never has to acknowledge that the idea of bombing away a guerrilla resistance group is just as flawed today as it was in the 1770's.

 

sorry, i think that this predictable failure by the UN is not the US's fault, nor did we engineer it. it may hypothetically work out to our advantage that the UN proved once again how useless it is, but the UN will be the scapegoat here for a reason: they are worthless and completely ineffective.

[NorthSideSox72]

sorry, i think that this predictable failure by the UN is not the US's fault, nor did we engineer it. it may hypothetically work out to our advantage that the UN proved once again how useless it is, but the UN will be the scapegoat here for a reason: they are worthless and completely ineffective.

The UN is indeed ineffective. But that is not only due to its organizational nature - it is also due to the actions and inactions of the member nations. That includes us.

 

In this case, most of the power countries on earth are to blame. They all decided it wasn't worth it to put together a plan for real peace.

[Rex Kickass]

Hit the hammer on the head here. As "concerned" as we were about it, we weren't really that "concerned" after all. Once it became clear that Syria wasn't going to join this fight, world powers were content and see just a few million sit in risk of death from a war that most of those people didn't want.

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh goodie. Now Syria is getting all snarky...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060823/ap_on_...non_israel_1266

 

"Hey... hey... we're scary too!!!"

[Balta1701]

CNN International (report hosted through Raw Story) reports on the unexploded Israeli cluster bombs, which are now turning up all over Lebanon and are injuring people, including children, as they gather up scrap metal to sell. The estimate currently is that there are tens of thousands of those bomblets scattered throughout southern lebanon.

[samclemens]

CNN International (report hosted through Raw Story) reports on the unexploded Israeli cluster bombs, which are now turning up all over Lebanon and are injuring people, including children, as they gather up scrap metal to sell. The estimate currently is that there are tens of thousands of those bomblets scattered throughout southern lebanon.

 

*yawn*

 

welcome to bosnia, kosovo, vietnam, etc.

[southsider2k5]

Amnesty International is calling Hezbollah tactics during the conflict with Israel "war crimes", 3 whole weeks after it charged Israel with the samething.

 

 

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_...1998301,00.html

 

Hezbollah committed war crimes in its conflict with Israel by targeting civilians with rockets packed with metal ball bearings, rights group Amnesty International said on Thursday.

 

It said about a quarter of the nearly 4 000 rockets that Hezbollah launched into Israel during the 34-day war were fired directly into urban areas.

 

"The scale of Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli cities, towns and villages, the indiscriminate nature of the weapons used and statements from the leadership confirming their intent to target civilians make it all too clear that Hezbollah violated the laws of war," Amnesty's secretary-general Irene Khan said.

 

UK official saids war crimes need to be redefined after this conflict, because of Hez. tactics of hiding weaponry in civilian and sensitive areas, and then exploiting the bombings of those areas after the fact.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5342788.stm

 

The minister alleged that Hezbollah had hidden caches of arms in schools and mosques, and rockets in apartment blocks in southern Lebanon.

 

"What I saw out there begs many questions about the way we try to define what constitutes a war crime in the future. I think we have to do a huge amount of reassessment in the future about how we define this kind of warfare," he said.

 

"Every time the Israelis responded... and smashed a building down, every picture of a burnt child and every picture of a building that had housed people [where] there was now pancake on the ground was propaganda for Hezbollah.

 

"And if an organisation like Hezbollah is ruthless enough to exploit those tactics, then one wonder how it can ever be possible in the future to, if you like, win the justice on your side against such an enemy."

[NorthSideSox72]

I know what this conflict needs. I think it would be terrific if the Pope through some gas on the fire AND invoke Middle Aged philosophy...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060915/ap_on_...pope_muslims_11

 

Nice. Very helpful.

[jackie hayes]

I know what this conflict needs. I think it would be terrific if the Pope through some gas on the fire AND invoke Middle Aged philosophy...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060915/ap_on_...pope_muslims_11

 

Nice. Very helpful.

What objection there is to his remarks has been blown absurdly out of proportion by opportunistic politicians. Comparing Pope B to Hitler is one of the stupidest remarks I've seen in years. Getting upset because he used "Constantinople" instead of "Istanbul" while referring to the city when it was called "Constantinople" is just f'n laughable.

 

He quotes the passage to set up his discussion of reason in Christianity, and the part that everyone's in a tizzy over he describes as "brusque". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

 

This whole controversy is garbage.

[NorthSideSox72]

What objection there is to his remarks has been blown absurdly out of proportion by opportunistic politicians. Comparing Pope B to Hitler is one of the stupidest remarks I've seen in years. Getting upset because he used "Constantinople" instead of "Istanbul" while referring to the city when it was called "Constantinople" is just f'n laughable.

 

He quotes the passage to set up his discussion of reason in Christianity, and the part that everyone's in a tizzy over he describes as "brusque". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

 

This whole controversy is garbage.

Me thinks you failed to actually read the quote which caused the controversy. I don't think anyone gives a damn about Constantinople versus Istanbul. Read it again. The problematic quote from Benedict is:

 

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

 

If you can't see how that would be insulting towards Islam, or how coming from the Pope that might get their cackles up, then you know little of religion.

 

And for the record, this to me is nothing like the whole cartoon controversy. That one was silly, IMO. This is the leader of the Catholic Church essentially saying that Islam brought nothing new to the table aside from a certain variety and ferocity of violence. And considering he was referring to actions around the Crusades, I'd say that's the pot calling the kettle black.

Edited September 15, 2006 by NorthSideSox72