beck72 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/15002669.htm Though his $6 mill a yr salary is steep for a set up guy, the sox have a lot of young bullpen guys right now and for the future--Which means they are both cheap and inexperienced [mostly after Jenks and cotts the Sox are thin]. They could absorb his salary taking those factors into account. Gordon would also be great insurance in case Jenks got hurt. Would the Sox make good trading partners with the Phills? The Thome trade was a win-win for both clubs. Why not? The sox would be likely as any club to trade and match up with what they want. Josh Fields would have to look good to them, with Bell in his last year. Fields could take over to start 2007 at 3b for them. Normally, trading a top prospect for an old pitcher wouldn't make sense. But not if that old guy can be around for 3 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 There's not a chance in hell the White Sox trade Fields straight up for Gordon. Zero chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 Here are the details on Gordon's contract: Owed $4.5 mill this yr, $7 mill in '07, and $5.5 mill. in '08, with a 2009 team option for $4.5 mill or a $1 mill buyout. Seeing how few rock solid playoff teams need closers [no team is really jumping out at me that is in desperate need of a closer, though the Dodgers may be one], he'd be an expensive set up guy. Yet the Sox could afford him as they have their top young bullpen guys [Jenks, Cotts and Thonrton] making peanuts. Add in the fact that a SP is likely to be traded in the offseason [vazquez] with Bmac taking his spot, and the sox could afford him. QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 11:34 AM) There's not a chance in hell the White Sox trade Fields straight up for Gordon. Zero chance. Even at the prospect of setting up the sox bullpen into one of the best in the baseball for the next three years? It's hard to gauge what the asking price for Gordon would be. But seeing how most teams are desperate for bullpen guys, I could see Philly asking for a top prospect in return for gordon and getting one from a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I would rather trade Fields for a Scott Linebrink type of reliever instead, someone who is a bit more affordable and younger but that's JMHO. Philly could be interested in a Ryan Sweeney. If they move Burrell or Abreu, they only have Victorino and Delucci as replacements. Otherwise Pat Gillick still wants good young pitching, so some SP prospects like Broadway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 11:51 AM) I would rather trade Fields for a Scott Linebrink type of reliever instead, someone who is a bit more affordable and younger but that's JMHO. Philly could be interested in a Ryan Sweeney. If they move Burrell or Abreu, they only have Victorino and Delucci as replacements. Otherwise Pat Gillick still wants good young pitching, so some SP prospects like Broadway. I would like a young affordable lights out reliever like Linebrink as well. It's just that no team will get rid of those guys. Guys like Cotts, Scot Shields, etc are invaluable to a club. The sox are finding that out with Politte this year. Without that stellar RH set up guy, it taxes the bullpen and the rest of the pitching staff to no ends. And it leaves the sox with no room for error on defense and offense. IMO, the sox should stick with the pitching and defense. The offense has slugged it's way to a great 1st half. But the improved starting pitching and bullpen that can keep a lead in 1 run games will carry the sox to the playoffs year in and year out. The sox should keep all their top pitching prospects, like Broadway, Lumsden etc. Dependable starting pitching is always at a premium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Flash would be ideal and is obviously a stud but not for Fields, beck. If Josh gets traded before July 31st it'll be for a starting pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 12:13 PM) Flash would be ideal and is obviously a stud but not for Fields, beck. If Josh gets traded before July 31st it'll be for a starting pitcher. I'm just thinking what Gillick would want from the sox. I'd love to get Flash for extra pieces but it isn't likely to happen. Fields is obviously valuable. And he's likely at the peak of his value with his AAA numbers being .329/.408/.559 [a year coming off a .252/.341/.408 line]. As far as what to get in return for Fields, a SP this year isn't going to happen [unless it's for a SP in the minor who could help next yr, but that is a stretch]. If Gordon is indeed on the market, some team will pay a top prospect for him. Fields has little value to the sox as a corner OFer/ DH, with Crede likely to get top dollar when it's time to re-up. The Sox have traded young prospects for established major leaguers to fill needs--a hitter [sP's for Thome] and a SP [a CFer for Vazquez]. I could see Fields going for pitching help. Seeing what the market was for those deals, Fields is about right for Gordon. Would I do it? Hard to say. But the sox have been willing to "overpay" to fill their needs. Fields for Gordon might be overpaying. But to keep the sox in contention for 3 more yrs might be too hard to pass up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:07 PM) I would like a young affordable lights out reliever like Linebrink as well. It's just that no team will get rid of those guys. Guys like Cotts, Scot Shields, etc are invaluable to a club. The sox are finding that out with Politte this year. Without that stellar RH set up guy, it taxes the bullpen and the rest of the pitching staff to no ends. And it leaves the sox with no room for error on defense and offense. IMO, the sox should stick with the pitching and defense. The offense has slugged it's way to a great 1st half. But the improved starting pitching and bullpen that can keep a lead in 1 run games will carry the sox to the playoffs year in and year out. The sox should keep all their top pitching prospects, like Broadway, Lumsden etc. Dependable starting pitching is always at a premium. You'd think so with the Padres. But they did trade Otsuka to the Rangers, and you would have thought he was pretty untouchable there after the 1st 2 seasons he had for the Pads. They have a HUGE weakness at 3rd base, with the lowest OPS there of any team in the majors. I think if you offered Garland along with Fields (San Diego doesn't have any backups starters besides Carillo in the minors, and Park's deal finishes at the end of the season), you may have something. Gordon should come cheaper because of his contract. But that doesn't mean Gillick is just going to give him up, because he knows how important pitching is, plus the Phillies don't exactly have someone who can take over as the closer right now. I would still like to trade a starter to open up a spot for B-MAc, yet get some good SP prospects in return. San Diego is a team you could possibly do that with, Los Angeles another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurtin Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 He's too old. I wouldn't count on him playing out his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I would trade anyone not named Fields or McCarthy for Gordon. Great power pitcher to have in October, although I don't think we can just assume he'll be this good for us for the next 2 years. Him being on a 3-yr contract isn't as exciting because of his age. You almost have to treat him like a free agent. Also, you have to be careful not to overuse the guy. IIRC, Torre burned him out for the playoffs the last 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I'd definitely like to have Gordon. He'd completely solidify our bullpen, making in one of the best around. With a trade like this, we might not even have to upgrade the rotation (which probably wouldn't happen anyway) because our bullpen would be so lights out. But if we're sending them Fields, I'd want something else in return, possibly some salary relief. And I wonder if Flash would take a demotion to set-up man again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Did Gordon burn his bridges a bit when he left here? Did we insult him with our low ball contract offer? And would he be happy again in a set up role for a kid like Jenks? It's one thing to set up for Mariano Rivera when you want to close. It is another thing to set up for the new kid on the block, no matter how successful he's been up to this point. Certainly Gordon would look very good in our bullpen. You could almost trade Javier Vazquez for him, except I believe Vazquez has a clause in his deal about not being traded to Philly. Just don't give up any can't miss guys like Josh Fields for him. Fields is worth a lot more than a set-up bullpen guy, no matter how good he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 08:42 AM) Did Gordon burn his bridges a bit when he left here? Did we insult him with our low ball contract offer? And would he be happy again in a set up role for a kid like Jenks? It's one thing to set up for Mariano Rivera when you want to close. It is another thing to set up for the new kid on the block, no matter how successful he's been up to this point. Wasn't one of the reasons he went to Philly the fact that he wanted to close, and didn't want to just be a setup man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:07 AM) Wasn't one of the reasons he went to Philly the fact that he wanted to close, and didn't want to just be a setup man? If he wants to be on a contending team, he's going to move to be a set-up man. The only contending team that might want a replacement closer is Detroit, but I think their future closer is already on their 25 man roster in Zumaya. Although I could see him staying in the NL and closing on St. Louis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 10:42 AM) Did Gordon burn his bridges a bit when he left here? Did we insult him with our low ball contract offer? And would he be happy again in a set up role for a kid like Jenks? It's one thing to set up for Mariano Rivera when you want to close. It is another thing to set up for the new kid on the block, no matter how successful he's been up to this point. Certainly Gordon would look very good in our bullpen. You could almost trade Javier Vazquez for him, except I believe Vazquez has a clause in his deal about not being traded to Philly. Just don't give up any can't miss guys like Josh Fields for him. Fields is worth a lot more than a set-up bullpen guy, no matter how good he is. No, IIRC the White Sox made him a pretty good offer, and he was the White Sox closer at the time he left. He wanted to close but the Yankees gave him a great deal. I don't know if he has a no-trade, but if somehow KW got him, I don't think he'd have a problem pitching the 8th, and he probably get a couple shots at pitching the 9th. He's one of Bo Jackson's best buddies I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Im pretty sure he said he was always a yankee fan and always wanted to play for them plus the money is the reason he went to the yanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 08:29 AM) Fields has little value to the sox as a corner OFer/ DH, with Crede likely to get top dollar when it's time to re-up. If by little value you mean he has a shot at being our leftfielder next year, then I guess he has little value. If you read Merkin's piece on Whitesox.com on Fields, you get the sense that a positional change for Fields is in the future and it's even discussed by Razor Shines. No way he gets moved for Tom Gordon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 02:27 PM) If by little value you mean he has a shot at being our leftfielder next year, then I guess he has little value. If you read Merkin's piece on Whitesox.com on Fields, you get the sense that a positional change for Fields is in the future and it's even discussed by Razor Shines. No way he gets moved for Tom Gordon. Here's the article you mention. I for one am surprised he hasn't had some Playing time in LF already. And a bit disappointed too. It'd be very nice to use Podsednik as our version of Rowand (trade bait) this offseason if we felt like Fields could fill that role next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 09:27 PM) If by little value you mean he has a shot at being our leftfielder next year, then I guess he has little value. If you read Merkin's piece on Whitesox.com on Fields, you get the sense that a positional change for Fields is in the future and it's even discussed by Razor Shines. No way he gets moved for Tom Gordon. "discussing" a move to LF is one thing. Having Fields play there for an extended period and him playing average to above avg defense in left field [at the major league level] is another. My biggest thing with Fields is him being blocked by Crede. Joe will not be let go by the Sox, and should be around for the next 5-10 yrs. QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) I would trade anyone not named Fields or McCarthy for Gordon. Great power pitcher to have in October, although I don't think we can just assume he'll be this good for us for the next 2 years. Him being on a 3-yr contract isn't as exciting because of his age. You almost have to treat him like a free agent. Also, you have to be careful not to overuse the guy. IIRC, Torre burned him out for the playoffs the last 2 years. Gordon's innings are down after being used almost everyday in NY--IIRC he's on pace tp throw about 60 innings after throwing around 80 the last two yrs. He's certainly pitched well this yr. If he's not overused [Ozzie keeps his bullpen pretty fresh-the last two yrs they have pitched the fewest innings in the majors]. I could see Flash being saved and allowed to get his needed rest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I don't think Fields is going anywhere unless the Sox have a deal that is too good to pass up. I don't think Gordon fits that mold. Crede is also not a guarantee to sign after his ARB years, even though I hope he does. So I don't think Fields gets traded unless they have Crede locked into a longer deal. Now if they do move Fields to LF and he progresses defensively, you can pencil him into LF with the Sox in 07. If Soriano can do it, Fields should be able to. At least he is playing on that side of the mound, so the balls will be coming at him from the same direction, which might help the transition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 While this may seem like a Gordon for Fields thread, it really isn't. My main point is that if Philly has Gordon on the block, the Sox should go after him. [i see getting a lock down RH set up man as the key to the 2nd half and playoffs--the SP will come around. Also having Gordon could be vital IF Jenks went down. Jenks goes down and so do the sox chances of repeating]. Seeing how the Thome trade worked well for both teams, the good will could exist to work on another deal [not necessarily involving Fields]. Fields is the sox top prospect-hands down. Yet there are other pieces that could be a fit for Philly in a potential trade. Sweeney and Broadway have been mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 11, 2006 -> 05:55 AM) While this may seem like a Gordon for Fields thread, it really isn't. My main point is that if Philly has Gordon on the block, the Sox should go after him. [i see getting a lock down RH set up man as the key to the 2nd half and playoffs--the SP will come around. Also having Gordon could be vital IF Jenks went down. Jenks goes down and so do the sox chances of repeating]. Seeing how the Thome trade worked well for both teams, the good will could exist to work on another deal [not necessarily involving Fields]. Fields is the sox top prospect-hands down. Yet there are other pieces that could be a fit for Philly in a potential trade. Sweeney and Broadway have been mentioned. I don't think there is a person here who wouldn't want Flash but obviously price is the key. To be honest, the bullpen doesn't worry me much. It definitely would be nice to get a right hander like Gordon but I have no problem at all throwing Neal and Matt out there in the 7th and 8th innings no matter who is hitting. The starting pitching is still my biggest concern, I have confidence in 3 starters going into the 2nd half(Count, Mark and Jon) the other two worry me a bit. Edited July 11, 2006 by Rowand44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 11, 2006 -> 11:03 AM) I don't think there is a person here who wouldn't want Flash but obviously price is the key. To be honest, the bullpen doesn't worry me much. It definitely would be nice to get a right hander like Gordon but I have no problem at all throwing Neal and Matt out there in the 7th and 8th innings no matter who is hitting. The starting pitching is still my biggest concern, I have confidence in 3 starters going into the 2nd half(Count, Mark and Jon) the other two worry me a bit. I know Vazquez has been doing worse lately. He might still turn it around. But if the sox don't think he can turn it around ala Contreras and Thorton, they might be better off dealing him now before his value is nil in the offseason. BMac might be better off suited for the rotation from here on out [not just going by his last 4+ innings vs Boston]. He seems to need the regular work as a SP, as his inconsistent outings in the pen show. The Sox would need a solid bullpen piece in return though. IIRC, Vazquez's no-trade is gone and could be dealt anywhere. A few teams come to mind that could be partners [Dodgers, Astros]. Lidge for Vazquez? Broxton + from LA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 11, 2006 -> 07:04 AM) I know Vazquez has been doing worse lately. He might still turn it around. But if the sox don't think he can turn it around ala Contreras and Thorton, they might be better off dealing him now before his value is nil in the offseason. BMac might be better off suited for the rotation from here on out [not just going by his last 4+ innings vs Boston]. He seems to need the regular work as a SP, as his inconsistent outings in the pen show. The Sox would need a solid bullpen piece in return though. IIRC, Vazquez's no-trade is gone and could be dealt anywhere. A few teams come to mind that could be partners [Dodgers, Astros]. Lidge for Vazquez? Broxton + from LA? I don't want anyone to think I've given up on Javy because I haven't, but he's definitely one of my main worries going into the 2nd half. As far as Mac goes, I agree that's he's better suited for the rotation but I doubt that's going to happen this year but next year...yes. I'm actually pretty happy with what we got in the pen. We got a good(not great) bullpen but the back end of our bullpen I'll put up against anyone's. To be honest, I think the bullpen is set for the rest of the year minus maybe the addition of Dustin Hermanson. That being said, if we could add Flash some how, that makes our bullpen one of, if not the best in all of baseball. Like I said though, I think we're done acquiring bullpen help but that's jmo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 11, 2006 -> 12:12 PM) I don't want anyone to think I've given up on Javy because I haven't, but he's definitely one of my main worries going into the 2nd half. As far as Mac goes, I agree that's he's better suited for the rotation but I doubt that's going to happen this year but next year...yes. I'm actually pretty happy with what we got in the pen. We got a good(not great) bullpen but the back end of our bullpen I'll put up against anyone's. To be honest, I think the bullpen is set for the rest of the year minus maybe the addition of Dustin Hermanson. That being said, if we could add Flash some how, that makes our bullpen one of, if not the best in all of baseball. Like I said though, I think we're done acquiring bullpen help but that's jmo. I'm not that concerned about Javy myself. But Ozzie, Coop and Kenny may be. They may decide BMac could make the adjustment to the rotation better than Javy improving, while adding pieces elsewhere [bullpen, prospects] by trading Javy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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