Tom Gordon on the block?

[DBAHO]

Looking at both organizations, a Broadway and possible fringe prospect for Gordon probably makes the most sense.

 

Broadway should be our main trading chip at the deadline. Despite the thoughts of some here on ST, SP is actually our most stocked position in the minors. Losing Broadway wouldn't hurt at all to win now when you've got the likes of Lumsden, Harrell etc. performing well.

 

Philly needs good young arms. Looking at their current rotation, Jon Lieber and Corey Lidle probably won't be back. They've got Scott Mathieson and Gio Gonzalez in the minors, but not much else besides Gavin Floyd who's been struggling.

 

I'm not that concerned about Javy myself. But Ozzie, Coop and Kenny may be. They may decide BMac could make the adjustment to the rotation better than Javy improving, while adding pieces elsewhere [bullpen, prospects] by trading Javy

This is the quandry right here, and the million dollar question for our GM right here.

 

Do you want to trade prospects right now to improve this ballclub, and hope Javy gets it together (which looking at the case of Contreras could very well happen), or do you want to trade Javy now and move B-Mac into the rotation?

 

There's pro's and con's for each side of the argument.

[beck72]

Looking at both organizations, a Broadway and possible fringe prospect for Gordon probably makes the most sense.

 

Broadway should be our main trading chip at the deadline. Despite the thoughts of some here on ST, SP is actually our most stocked position in the minors. Losing Broadway wouldn't hurt at all to win now when you've got the likes of Lumsden, Harrell etc. performing well.

 

Philly needs good young arms. Looking at their current rotation, Jon Lieber and Corey Lidle probably won't be back. They've got Scott Mathieson and Gio Gonzalez in the minors, but not much else besides Gavin Floyd who's been struggling.

This is the quandry right here, and the million dollar question for our GM right here.

 

Do you want to trade prospects right now to improve this ballclub, and hope Javy gets it together (which looking at the case of Contreras could very well happen), or do you want to trade Javy now and move B-Mac into the rotation?

 

There's pro's and con's for each side of the argument.

 

Vazquez to the Phils? Their SP is the worst in the NL. And their bullpen is 3rd best. Ryan Madson would be solid--young and cheap. Though the sox might have to add an arm or take on salary

 

Whether it's trading prospects or major leaguers, the sox have been good judges of their own talent. I trust the sox to make the right choice come the deadline

[DBAHO]

Vazquez to the Phils? Their SP is the worst in the NL. And their bullpen is 3rd best. Ryan Madson would be solid--young and cheap. Though the sox might have to add an arm or take on salary

 

Whether it's trading prospects or major leaguers, the sox have been good judges of their own talent. I trust the sox to make the right choice come the deadline

I don't think Gillick would take a chance on Vazquez when he's not performing well, and the ballpark he'd be pitching in would be even worse than what he has to face right now.

 

Madson is an interesting option. The Phils have a fairly good pen, but I think Arthur Rhodes is probably more attainable although he's struggled as of late.

 

Just think Gillick is going to start from scratch again, trade some of the big names, and rebuild that team from top to bottom, because it's obvious what they have now isn't working at all, and hasn't for quite a while.

[elrockinMT]

I'd be interested in Tom Gordon again. A NL All-Star pitcher coming to the Sox- come on guys!! But, would Gordon be happy here as the set up man and maybe occassional closer because Jenks is our man?

[Dick Allen]

I would love Gordon. It would also give the Sox an All Star closer if Jenks was unavailable or injured. I think the price to get him will be steep. I agree his acquisition would make the White Sox bullpen go from questionable at least in my mind, to a strength, something you probably need since the starters appear tired and probably won't be able to deliver the desired innings the second half. If you could pawn off Vazquez, that's even better. This guy hasn't been that strong post All Star break the past couple of seasons. His homerun allowed rate is down, chances are its going to go up, and so will his ERA if that is possible. It will be interesting to see if KW pulls the trigger on something major in the next few weeks. The quotes from Ozzie seem to indicate something is going to happen. Last year he kept saying he didn't want anything, and now he's talking about the asking price which indicates there has been shopping going on.

[beck72]

The reason he went to Philly was 1) The 3 year deal, and 2) Spot to Close.

Now, he is going to have the 3 year deal if he were to get traded, and now he gets traded to a contender, and is familiar with his surroundings.

I would love Flash back with the Sox. I said it in the Rowand thread but a bullpen of...

 

Thornton-Riske-7th

Cotts-Flash-8th

Jenks-9th

 

It gives you alot of flexibility,you then have a shut down bullpen, and you still have Mac to fill in when need be.

 

And the bullpen would be locked up for the next three years. Adding the veteran to the mix of Jenks, Cotts, Thornton, really makes sense. The bullpen is inexpensive, even with Flash, to offset the large salaries of the SP's [this of course with an offseason trade of Vazquez for prospects to put BMac into the rotation].

 

The difference in salaries between Flash and Javy [and no resigning Politte and Hermanson] can then pay for Crede's new contract.

 

 

 

I would love Gordon. It would also give the Sox an All Star closer if Jenks was unavailable or injured. I think the price to get him will be steep. I agree his acquisition would make the White Sox bullpen go from questionable at least in my mind, to a strength, something you probably need since the starters appear tired and probably won't be able to deliver the desired innings the second half. If you could pawn off Vazquez, that's even better. This guy hasn't been that strong post All Star break the past couple of seasons. His homerun allowed rate is down, chances are its going to go up, and so will his ERA if that is possible. It will be interesting to see if KW pulls the trigger on something major in the next few weeks. The quotes from Ozzie seem to indicate something is going to happen. Last year he kept saying he didn't want anything, and now he's talking about the asking price which indicates there has been shopping going on.

 

Could a deal involving Broadway plus be considered steep for Gordon?

 

Getting Gordon in this pen would be huge, but there is no reason Philly cant ask for a kings ransom for him, and im not sure its worth paying that. Fields, no. Anderson,no Mac,no.Sweeney,no.

Would that be a yes for a Broadway? I could see Philly liking a solid SP prospect close to major league ready. Esp. seeing how many AA guys have started this yr in the majors for NL teams, including Mathieson from the Phills.

[Dick Allen]

I just don't see how Philadelphia could sell Gordon for Broadway and lesser prospects to their paying customers. That's beyond a white flag trade. They are white flagging next season as well. If that's all it takes to get him, KW should have made this trade yesterday. One thing to remember is Gordon, if traded will be a veteran traded under a muti-year contract and IIRC may demand a trade after the season so he could go somewhere and close. You could get his contract off the books and pick up different prospects.

[beck72]

I just don't see how Philadelphia could sell Gordon for Broadway and lesser prospects to their paying customers. That's beyond a white flag trade. They are white flagging next season as well. If that's all it takes to get him, KW should have made this trade yesterday. One thing to remember is Gordon, if traded will be a veteran traded under a muti-year contract and IIRC may demand a trade after the season so he could go somewhere and close. You could get his contract off the books and pick up different prospects.

 

Gordon is being mentioned in a lot of papers. Not all of them NY. The Philly papers seem to want to sell off anyone and everyone. Gordon is one of the few trading pieces who has value. Abreu and Burrell are strictly salary dumps

[Dick Allen]

Gordon is being mentioned in a lot of papers. Not all of them NY. The Philly papers seem to want to sell off anyone and everyone. Gordon is one of the few trading pieces who has value. Abreu and Burrell are strictly salary dumps

I wouldn't doubt they will trade Gordon. I think they'll want more than a soft-tossing AA pitcher.

[GreatScott82]

Flash is definitley on the market. I'm sure KW will make a few calls in regards to him. But what would it cost to bring him back to Chicago? Also what do you guys think about bringing back Roberto Hernandez to Chicago?

Here are the #s:

Roberto Hernandez: 0-2 2.56 era with 28 Ks and 19 BBs in 40 appearances. His walks are kind of concerning, but he can definitley take Pollites job in the pen.

Edited July 13, 2006 by GreatScott82

[witesoxfan]

Flash is definitley on the market. I'm sure KW will make a few calls in regards to him. But what would it cost to bring him back to Chicago? Also what do you guys think about bringing back Roberto Hernandez to Chicago?

Here are the #s:

Roberto Hernandez: 0-2 2.56 era with 28 Ks and 19 BBs in 40 appearances. His walks are kind of concerning, but he can definitley take Pollites job in the pen.

 

I was all for a move to bring back Roberto to the South Side about a month ago. Then I actually looked at his numbers.

 

April - 3.18 ERA 1.76 WHIP 11.1 IP

May - 0.82 ERA 0.73 WHIP 11 IP

June - 3.29 ERA 1.61 WHIP 13.2 IP

July - 3.38 ERA 2.63 WHIP 2.2 IP

 

He's not striking guys out at a high rate either - after taking out his month of May(while very good, it makes his numbers look much better than they actually are), his K/9 is a mediocre 5.54, and he's allowing baserunners on at a very high clip. That is friggin dangerous.

 

I have a feeling some team is going to give up something of value for Hernandez, and that they are going to regret it within two weeks of trading for him. I just hope it is not Kenny Williams, and I have a good feeling it won't be.

 

 

Flash is intriguing though. I like Flash. That would make the Sox pen probably the best in the majors, and in a year where bullpens are pretty much weak everywhere, a very strong bullpen would be very nice to have.

[beck72]

I was thinking which teams would be looking at Gordon [besides the Yanks]. LA would need him the most. But they also have holes at 3b, their rotation and 2b [isn't Kent hurt?]. The yanks might be next. But they need a bat, and another SP. The sox ony real need is the bullpen.

[Balta1701]

I was thinking which teams would be looking at Gordon [besides the Yanks]. LA would need him the most. But they also have holes at 3b, their rotation and 2b [isn't Kent hurt?]. The yanks might be next. But they need a bat, and another SP. The sox ony real need is the bullpen.

Kent has a strained left Oblique, but according to the LAT was expected to be back in the lineup today. Mueller is out for the season in LA, but currently they're running with Izturis at 3rd. They also have some of their young guys capable of playing there.

[beck72]

Kent has a strained left Oblique, but according to the LAT was expected to be back in the lineup today. Mueller is out for the season in LA, but currently they're running with Izturis at 3rd. They also have some of their young guys capable of playing there.

 

Izturis certainly isn't a power guy needed at 3B. IIRC, the guys from the minors aren't ready to play in the bigs right now. Yet LA would probably be one of the biggest suitors for Gordon and have a lot of prospects to trade [though they may need them to get the other holes filled].

[Balta1701]

Izturis certainly isn't a power guy needed at 3B. IIRC, the guys from the minors aren't ready to play in the bigs right now. Yet LA would probably be one of the biggest suitors for Gordon and have a lot of prospects to trade [though they may need them to get the other holes filled].

Willie Aybar is at least listed as a 3b, he's one of their rookies, hitting about .274 with an OPS of .806. He was hitting .300 before a couple of bad games, and he's down in AAA since Izturis came back.

[CWSGuy406]

The Sox have traded young prospects for established major leaguers to fill needs--a hitter [sP's for Thome] and a SP [a CFer for Vazquez]. I could see Fields going for pitching help. Seeing what the market was for those deals, Fields is about right for Gordon. Would I do it? Hard to say. But the sox have been willing to "overpay" to fill their needs. Fields for Gordon might be overpaying. But to keep the sox in contention for 3 more yrs might be too hard to pass up.

 

Apples and oranges. Apples and f***ing oranges.

 

You're talking about one guy who the Sox thought was going to throw 200 innings of a 4.00-4.50 ERA and another guy who the Sox though was going to hit 50 homers. Big difference than a reliever who's barely going to throw 70 innings a year...

 

Sheesh... maybe Kenny should pull a Wayne Krisvky and trade two good young players (let's say, Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe) to Philly for a bunch of relievers. I'm sure they'd be willing to give us Arthur Rhodes AND Flash Gordon, along with eating a bunch of their salaries. Would that make ya happy, getting that 'veteran presence' into the bullpen?

 

BTW, there's a great article with Indians GM Mark Shapiro online. Obviously, his team hasn't played as he envisioned it, but his thoughts on relievers strike me as being similar to what Kenny thinks (and me, if that means anything):

 

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cf..._id=46370&rfi=6

 

Q: The way the game is today, a lot of games are decided by the bullpen, so why do so many teams still try to cut corners in what they pay relievers?

 

A: Because there is no team, there is no general manager, there is no one who consistently builds a good bullpen year in, year out. There are reasons for that. One, the best bullpen guys get overworked. So the next year they're usually not as good. Two, your sample size (for evaluation purposes) is smaller than a batter, where you have 600 plate appearances, or a starting pitcher, where you have 200 innings. With a reliever, you're basing your predictions on 60 or 70 innings. You're just not going to be as good. You're not going to be as accurate. And, three, these guys are bullpen guys for a reason. They usually have some flaw that didn't allow them to be starters.

 

I'm not saying there is not an elite group of 30 to 40 -- total, in all of Major League Baseball -- bullpen guys that are predictable from year to year. But after those elite 40 guys, it's. . . it's. . . well, look, there's a $200 million dollar payroll team on the field (the Yankees, vs. the Indians last week). Two hundred million dollars. Kyle Farnsworth has been terrible. Scott Proctor has been terrible. They have one guy in their bullpen.

 

Chicago has one guy in their bullpen, but it doesn't matter. It's their starting pitching. The White Sox philosophy of building a good bullpen is to build dominant starting pitching. Our bullpen was really good last year because our starters were getting us into the seventh inning every night. Our bullpen is good now, when our starters give us seven innings. It's when you have to pitch your middle relievers so much -- that's not good. Middle relievers aren't meant to be in there that frequently. And last year our middle relievers were good. They kept us in games. That's why we had so many one-run losses, the middle relievers allowed us to stay close. Games didn't get away from us.

 

Obviously, it's not quite true that we only have "one guy" in our bullpen, but I found his thoughts interesting.

Edited July 13, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[Jordan4life_2007]

I was all for a move to bring back Roberto to the South Side about a month ago. Then I actually looked at his numbers.

 

April - 3.18 ERA 1.76 WHIP 11.1 IP

May - 0.82 ERA 0.73 WHIP 11 IP

June - 3.29 ERA 1.61 WHIP 13.2 IP

July - 3.38 ERA 2.63 WHIP 2.2 IP

 

He's not striking guys out at a high rate either - after taking out his month of May(while very good, it makes his numbers look much better than they actually are), his K/9 is a mediocre 5.54, and he's allowing baserunners on at a very high clip. That is friggin dangerous.

 

I have a feeling some team is going to give up something of value for Hernandez, and that they are going to regret it within two weeks of trading for him. I just hope it is not Kenny Williams, and I have a good feeling it won't be.

Flash is intriguing though. I like Flash. That would make the Sox pen probably the best in the majors, and in a year where bullpens are pretty much weak everywhere, a very strong bullpen would be very nice to have.

 

I was another one who was in favor of trading for Hernandez. I'm not so sure now after lookin' at those splits.

[beck72]

Apples and oranges. Apples and f***ing oranges.

 

You're talking about one guy who the Sox thought was going to throw 200 innings of a 4.00-4.50 ERA and another guy who the Sox though was going to hit 50 homers. Big difference than a reliever who's barely going to throw 70 innings a year...

 

Sheesh... maybe Kenny should pull a Wayne Krisvky and trade two good young players (let's say, Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe) to Philly for a bunch of relievers. I'm sure they'd be willing to give us Arthur Rhodes AND Flash Gordon, along with eating a bunch of their salaries. Would that make ya happy, getting that 'veteran presence' into the bullpen?

Relax pal.

[witesoxfan]

Apples and oranges. Apples and f***ing oranges.

 

You're talking about one guy who the Sox thought was going to throw 200 innings of a 4.00-4.50 ERA and another guy who the Sox though was going to hit 50 homers. Big difference than a reliever who's barely going to throw 70 innings a year...

 

Sheesh... maybe Kenny should pull a Wayne Krisvky and trade two good young players (let's say, Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe) to Philly for a bunch of relievers. I'm sure they'd be willing to give us Arthur Rhodes AND Flash Gordon, along with eating a bunch of their salaries. Would that make ya happy, getting that 'veteran presence' into the bullpen?

 

BTW, there's a great article with Indians GM Mark Shapiro online. Obviously, his team hasn't played as he envisioned it, but his thoughts on relievers strike me as being similar to what Kenny thinks (and me, if that means anything):

 

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cf..._id=46370&rfi=6

Obviously, it's not quite true that we only have "one guy" in our bullpen, but I found his thoughts interesting.

 

 

Keith, I got something for you to think about

 

Tom Gordon is one of those 30-40 elite relievers that Shapiro is talking about - the guy has been money the last 4 years. He's had injury concerns in the past, and he's a bit older, but he has not stopped producing.

 

Is one of those 30-40 elite relievers worth good prospects? Not necessarily Fields or Sweeney(who I don't think KW has any intention of moving at all), but perhaps one top 5 prospect or 2 in the top 15, or something in those whereabouts?

[DBAHO]

In the same N.Y Daily News Article that mentions us shopping Freddy and Javy;

 

The Phillies, also looking to add to their rotation in a thin market, are willing to give up closer Tom Gordon in a deal with the Sox, according to a source.

[Capn12]

I may be in the minority here, but I would MUCH rather move Garcia and his mysterious velocity loss style of pitching to the Phils in a deal involving Gordon. Vazquez is signed through next year, will cost us approximately $6.5 mil in 2007(compared to Garcias $10 mil monstrosity), and still has the better stuff if he can get over the tantrums on the mound.

[shawnhillegas]

I may be in the minority here, but I would MUCH rather move Garcia and his mysterious velocity loss style of pitching to the Phils in a deal involving Gordon. Vazquez is signed through next year, will cost us approximately $6.5 mil in 2007(compared to Garcias $10 mil monstrosity), and still has the better stuff if he can get over the tantrums on the mound.

 

I agree, I agree. Freddy is toast. Vaz can still be that guy we all want him to be.

[daa84]

I agree, I agree. Freddy is toast. Vaz can still be that guy we all want him to be.

i agree, i know its not a good idea to randomly throw out names in terms of steroid use, but it wouldn't shock me one bit to hear garcia was on it

[G&T]

The Sox response to the trade rumors involving Gordon is that "they won't respond to every trade rumor"...which IMO is a bit different than their usual "No, we won't do that." That's usually an indication that something is afoot. This is reported by the Score.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

Edited July 14, 2006 by G&T

[Balta1701]

Does anyone else sit here and think that a guy who pitches 200+ innings at around age 30 is more valuable than a guy who might pitch 70 inning and is around age 40, even considering contract disparities?