Tom Gordon on the block?

[Rowand44]

The Sox response to the trade rumors involving Gordon is that "they won't respond to every trade rumor"...which IMO is a bit different than their usual "No, we won't do that." That's usually an indication that something is afoot. This is reported by the Score.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

Ya, that's shady.

[southsideirish71]

I liked it better when KW was a bit easier to read. When prompted so are we trading for X player, if he had a stone face nothing. If he giggled and made goofy comments, player X was here within a week.

[G&T]

Does anyone else sit here and think that a guy who pitches 200+ innings at around age 30 is more valuable than a guy who might pitch 70 inning and is around age 40, even considering contract disparities?

 

Yes, but that depends on a team's needs and assets. The Sox obviously believe that BMAC is the real deal and in order to get him into the rotation they need to move an inconsistent piece of the rotation and bring in a setup man. This whole deal revolves around the idea that McCarthy is ready now, and can bring everything to the table that Garcia or Vasquez brings.

[southsideirish71]

Does anyone else sit here and think that a guy who pitches 200+ innings at around age 30 is more valuable than a guy who might pitch 70 inning and is around age 40, even considering contract disparities?

 

 

When the 30 year old is getting a kings ransom, mysteriously has dropped velocity, and is getting bombed everytime he faces an AL team then I say get BMAC into the rotation and lets rock for the rest of the year. I say put him on the block, and see what the best that comes out of it .

[Balta1701]

When the 30 year old is getting a kings ransom, mysteriously has dropped velocity, and is getting bombed everytime he faces an AL team then I say get BMAC into the rotation and lets rock for the rest of the year. I say put him on the block, and see what the best that comes out of it .

I didn't say don't put him on the block. I just think he's worth more than a 39 year old relief pitcher.

[gojimthome]

Does anyone else sit here and think that a guy who pitches 200+ innings at around age 30 is more valuable than a guy who might pitch 70 inning and is around age 40, even considering contract disparities?

 

I'm younger than 30 and could pitch over 200 innings a year. That doesn't make me worth more than Tom Gordon.

 

Come to think of it, my fastball isn't much slower than Freddy's...

[Drew]

I have a better weed hookup than Freddy.

[G&T]

I didn't say don't put him on the block. I just think he's worth more than a 39 year old relief pitcher.

 

I misread, I guess, but you raise a good point. This deal might hinge on a prospect...possibly one we've traded before?

[Balta1701]

I misread, I guess, but you raise a good point. This deal might hinge on a prospect...possibly one we've traded before?

I'd take Gio back and call it a deal!

[CWSGuy406]

Keith, I got something for you to think about

 

Tom Gordon is one of those 30-40 elite relievers that Shapiro is talking about - the guy has been money the last 4 years. He's had injury concerns in the past, and he's a bit older, but he has not stopped producing.

 

Is one of those 30-40 elite relievers worth good prospects? Not necessarily Fields or Sweeney(who I don't think KW has any intention of moving at all), but perhaps one top 5 prospect or 2 in the top 15, or something in those whereabouts?

 

I might give up two in the top 15. Depends which two...

 

Not a chance in hell, though, are they even touching Fields or Sweeney.

[witesoxfan]

I might give up two in the top 15. Depends which two...

 

Not a chance in hell, though, are they even touching Fields or Sweeney.

 

Agreed, agreed.

 

I'm open as hell to trading Fields, especially if it were part of a package for a top 5 leadoff hitter who could play leftfield and would be around till about 2010(if I haven't spelled out his name by now, it is C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D).

 

I personally do not want Sweeney to leave this organization, and I hope KW has the exact same thing in mind.

[Chisoxfn]

I might give up two in the top 15. Depends which two...

 

Not a chance in hell, though, are they even touching Fields or Sweeney.

Honestly, if we don't give up those guys the Phils aren't giving us Gordon. Thats just a part of doing business and it may very well be the reason we don't get Gordon. I could see us moving Javy or Freddy but I think we'd be getting more than just Gordon back and yes, that could even mean the return of Aaron Rowand.

 

Just me speculating, but a straight up deal would make no sense and Kenny probably wouldn't deal Sweeney for Gordon and I have my doubts he'd give up Fields for him, but another team will give up that type of prospect for Gordon.

[DBAHO]

Agreed, agreed.

 

I'm open as hell to trading Fields, especially if it were part of a package for a top 5 leadoff hitter who could play leftfield and would be around till about 2010(if I haven't spelled out his name by now, it is C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D).

 

I personally do not want Sweeney to leave this organization, and I hope KW has the exact same thing in mind.

Fields really should interest a team like Tampa Bay. But now they've moved Upton from SS to 3B, because of all of the problems B.J's had in the field.

 

So what other alternatives are there? Not a lot unfortunately. I wonder if you would give up Fields for say a package involving Corey Patterson and Daniel Cabrera (who got demoted to AAA today, but has Don Cooper written all over him). Otherwise there's really not much else out therem if you're looking for a young good leadoff hitter.

[Balta1701]

So what other alternatives are there? Not a lot unfortunately. I wonder if you would give up Fields for say a package involving Corey Patterson and Daniel Cabrera (who got demoted to AAA today, but has Don Cooper written all over him). Otherwise there's really not much else out therem if you're looking for a young good leadoff hitter.

Because Cooper has plenty of spare time thanks to the dynamite performance of our pitchers this year.

 

Seriously btw, it's time to stop thinking about CF options. Our new CF has finally appeared. He's doing his job a lot better than any of the starting pitchers right now.

[witesoxfan]

I'm going to bump this with no update on the situation, just due to a thought I had.

 

This Sox team is composed mainly of guys with World Series rings, largely from the group last year. It also appears that there is a little less motivation and a little less hunger and fire in this team than last year. Obviously there are some who weren't on last year's team(Thome, Vazquez, Thornton, Cintron, Mackowiak, Riske, and not much more after that), but by and large this is last year's team.

 

With that in mind, consider that Tom Gordon is a 38-year old pitcher who's had a very long and very successful career in the majors, and it's close to being over. He's still a very solid reliever with excellent stuff, which makes him more attractive, considering his stuff will probably not degrade a ton over the next two years, barring injuries, so it would be a decent long-term investment. And even though he's been on quite a few winning teams, he has no World Series ring.

 

With all that in consideration, I would have to imagine that he probably wants a ring quite badly before he hangs up the cleats. The bullpen is without much guidance at all, other than what they went through last year, and he'd help to provide it with some leadership.

 

It's also the type of big, yet not earth-shattering move that may help start some good baseball over a period of time.

 

Just throwing it out there, because I think Tom Gordon would be a huge addition to the team, both mentally and personel wise. Of course, if the cost is Fields or Sweeney, you'd try and offer them a package of perhaps Tracey and Broadway. If that wouldn't work, I'd probably try and work on Garcia for Gordon straight up(and while I understand Garcia is in his prime, and is signed to a relatively large deal, he could be attractive to the Phillies due to his contract being affordable, and any potential value he may have this year or next could be used to net some prospects for them). You would be getting the bad end of the deal, all things considered, but that would definately be a huge wake-up call to the team.

[Frankensteiner]

Getting an All-Star closer for a middling starter with an 86mph fastball isn't "getting the bad end of the deal." It's winning the trade hands down.

[beck72]

I'm going to bump this with no update on the situation, just due to a thought I had.

 

This Sox team is composed mainly of guys with World Series rings, largely from the group last year. It also appears that there is a little less motivation and a little less hunger and fire in this team than last year. Obviously there are some who weren't on last year's team(Thome, Vazquez, Thornton, Cintron, Mackowiak, Riske, and not much more after that), but by and large this is last year's team.

 

With that in mind, consider that Tom Gordon is a 38-year old pitcher who's had a very long and very successful career in the majors, and it's close to being over. He's still a very solid reliever with excellent stuff, which makes him more attractive, considering his stuff will probably not degrade a ton over the next two years, barring injuries, so it would be a decent long-term investment. And even though he's been on quite a few winning teams, he has no World Series ring.

 

With all that in consideration, I would have to imagine that he probably wants a ring quite badly before he hangs up the cleats. The bullpen is without much guidance at all, other than what they went through last year, and he'd help to provide it with some leadership.

 

It's also the type of big, yet not earth-shattering move that may help start some good baseball over a period of time.

 

Just throwing it out there, because I think Tom Gordon would be a huge addition to the team, both mentally and personel wise. Of course, if the cost is Fields or Sweeney, you'd try and offer them a package of perhaps Tracey and Broadway. If that wouldn't work, I'd probably try and work on Garcia for Gordon straight up(and while I understand Garcia is in his prime, and is signed to a relatively large deal, he could be attractive to the Phillies due to his contract being affordable, and any potential value he may have this year or next could be used to net some prospects for them). You would be getting the bad end of the deal, all things considered, but that would definately be a huge wake-up call to the team.

 

The sox aren't going into the trade deadline this yr thinking "let's not mess with team chemistry", or "we have all the pieces we need, we can stand pat". A deal for Gordon, or any other big upgrade, though may require someone off the current sox 25 man roster. That certainly would be a wake up call.

[witesoxfan]

Getting an All-Star closer for a middling starter with an 86mph fastball isn't "getting the bad end of the deal." It's winning the trade hands down.

 

And then when Garcia can "magically" throw it 91-94 again next year and has a pretty solid year cuz he needs some more green...then what?

 

I think Gillick would do it(because I'm sure he still likes Garcia a little from his Seattle days...or perhaps that's what would drive him away, I'm not sure), and the value is there, and I see no reason why the Sox wouldn't do it, seeing as how much they've soured on Garcia.

[sircaffey]

And then when Garcia can "magically" throw it 91-94 again next year and has a pretty solid year cuz he needs some more green...then what?

 

Then that's not the type of player we want on the Sox...

[witesoxfan]

Then that's not the type of player we want on the Sox...

 

thus, he should be traded

[Frankensteiner]

And then when Garcia can "magically" throw it 91-94 again next year and has a pretty solid year cuz he needs some more green...then what?

 

I think Gillick would do it(because I'm sure he still likes Garcia a little from his Seattle days...or perhaps that's what would drive him away, I'm not sure), and the value is there, and I see no reason why the Sox wouldn't do it, seeing as how much they've soured on Garcia.

 

If Garcia starts throwing 91-94 again, he'll be good. But that's a big if and he hasn't shown that ability all year.

 

I see no way the Phils would do that trade. They have scouts so they'll know what they're getting.

[sircaffey]

thus, he should be traded

 

Yep. Definitely.

[witesoxfan]

If Garcia starts throwing 91-94 again, he'll be good. But that's a big if and he hasn't shown that ability all year.

 

I see no way the Phils would do that trade. They have scouts so they'll know what they're getting.

 

They also realize how pisspoor the NL is going to be for about the next year or two. Leagues don't go from spiffty to great overnight. Freddy, with his 85-88 MPH fastball, would be a serviceable and durable starting pitcher in the NL, ballpark be damned, and serviceable starting pitching is at a premium(ask tightwad Beane why he spent $7 mill a year on Loaiza). The durability is great, and that's pretty much obvious. So, worst case scenario for Philly, they get a year and a half of serviceable starting from Garcia, and he's gone, with or without other compensation.

 

Best case scenario, the guy wants a new, bloated contract after 2007, he starts throwing hard again, he gets his spiff together, and he's great for Philly, and depending upon how good the team is next year, they have either a horse down the stretch, or they have hella trade bait and Freddy is gone again.

 

If they choose not to, they simply keep Gordon, or trade him for prospects, running the risk of them not panning out or becoming very good. For as good as he's been, Gordon is 38, and has 2 more years on his contract...he has value, but it is not as high as it should be for those two reasons. So due to that, I'm not sure how good of a prospect they will be able to get out of him...perhaps Gillick will play his chips well and can get a top prospect for him, such as Bavasi did for Seattle last year in trading Villone, and perhaps not.

 

We'll find out in the next 11 days.

 

 

EDIT: spiffty...haha. Sposed to say bad, or perhaps another word for bad

Edited July 21, 2006 by witesoxfan

[WCSox]

They also realize how pisspoor the NL is going to be for about the next year or two. Leagues don't go from spiffty to great overnight. Freddy, with his 85-88 MPH fastball, would be a serviceable and durable starting pitcher in the NL, ballpark be damned, and serviceable starting pitching is at a premium(ask tightwad Beane why he spent $7 mill a year on Loaiza). The durability is great, and that's pretty much obvious. So, worst case scenario for Philly, they get a year and a half of serviceable starting from Garcia, and he's gone, with or without other compensation.

 

A pitcher with diminished skills in the AL will have the same diminished skills in the NL. Freddy may still be able to mow down pitchers, but he'll still be shelled when he faces the 3/4/5 NL hitters.

 

Neither the Phillies or Mets are going to want Freddy badly enough to give anything significant back in return. The only reason that the Phillies would want to unload Gordon would be to dump salary, so picking up Freddy's contract wouldn't make much sense in that regard.