I'm finally off of the Podsednik bandwagon (long)

[Milkman delivers]

286 BA, 397 OBP, in the playoffs. Not great but very serviceable. Not to mention one of the biggest home runs in white sox history. Pods led us to our 1st world series title in 88 years as our lead off man and I recognize the fact hes not the best lead off man in the world, but for right now he is playing well enough to deserve some respect from the fans. He is an integral aspect of team chemistry and we have a few glaring needs to improve on. If we are gonna rip Pods then lets rip Mark Buehrle, Fraddy Garcia and Jon Garland. Should we get rid of them? I think not

 

In fact, he's one of the worst.

If we are gonna rip Pods then lets rip Mark Buehrle, Fraddy Garcia and Jon Garland.

 

Do you read this site? We rip the s*** out of those guys, too.

[SABR Sox]

I always thought that one of the big reasons to like a player like PODs offensivly is that not only can he steal a base, but also because the players batting get better pitches to hit because of the pressure a base stealer adds. Doesnt Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye see more fastballs if PODs is on base?

 

You can make the argument.

 

The Sox are certianly a good situational hitting/clutch hitting team this season.

 

But the problem is clutch/situational hitting is kind of widespread and somes in spurts, unless every hitter in your lineup is David Ortiz.

 

But without Pods the hitters performances probably wouldn't change all that much. If you add Cristian Guzman to the top of the lineup, we'd see an RBI decrease, but thats about it. Replacing him probably won't change much at all.

[watchtower41]

I always thought that one of the big reasons to like a player like PODs offensivly is that not only can he steal a base, but also because the players batting get better pitches to hit because of the pressure a base stealer adds. Doesnt Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye see more fastballs if PODs is on base?

 

 

No, because like many have pointed out,

 

 

Pods does NOTHING positive to help this team. I've made this case several times throughout this thread, but I guess because there is no stat for it, it doesnt count (at least at soxtalk)

[chitownsportsfan]

No, because like many have pointed out,

Pods does NOTHING positive to help this team. I've made this case several times throughout this thread, but I guess because there is no stat for it, it doesnt count (at least at soxtalk)

 

I've read every post of yours on this topic, and not one of them has been worth anything. Statistics is one of the ways used (some would say the most important, myself included) to measure a players worth. Observation clearly being the other major way.

 

So if you don't want to use stats, at least try and use observations to defend Podsednik. Say he's a good baserunner, say he brings young hotties to the ballpark. Say something.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Hey guys, long-time lurker, first-time poster.

 

I think most of us realized in the first half of last year that Scottie was not the defensive player that was advertised prior to joining us (to think we debated moving Aaron to left and putting him in center), and he has been even worse the first half this year defensively. To my eyes, however, it appears that ever since Ozzie's comments, and Scott's own description of his play ("horses***") in the field, he has been improved. He seems to be hustling a little more, going back on balls better, taking better routes to line drives, and even making better throws into second base. He'll never be mistaken for Torii Hunter in the field, but I feel that he has made a conscious effort to improve and indeed has.

 

In terms of his offense, he seems as though he may have lost a step in the offseason, which may be natural due to his age. However, I think he is hitting the ball every bit as hard if not harder this year than last, it's just that he isn't getting the bunt hits and other infield hits that he did so well with last year. I can only remember a few off the top of my head this season, whereas last year he had several (I believe he may have led the league?). If you factor in his inability or unwillingness to get the infield hits, I think it is extremely clear why is average is down from last season.

 

Finally, while I think it helps out other hitters (and is indeed part of his role as a leadoff hitter), I don't necessarily believe that seeing so many pitches helps him out. He often is left hitting with two strikes, whicht takes away from his game slightly because the threat of the bunt no longer exists. I think he is a better hitter when he is aggressive at the plate and he can keep defenses off-balance. Perhaps he could be slightly more aggressive when he is not the first hitter to see a pitcher, since the hitters behind him don't necessarily need him to see more pitches at that point.

 

Excellent post, my friend. Welcome to the board.

[iamshack]

Just a few observations:

 

Well, for one thing, he is a solid leadoff hitter. I really don't know what it is, but we all know that when Scottie is hitting, the White Sox are scoring. No one player seems to impact our offense more so than him when he is hitting. The White Sox lead the league in runs scored in the first inning (79). The Mets are second (75), and after that it isn't particularly close. I don't find it a coincidence that also happens to be the inning that Scottie leads off every game in which he plays. Whether it is his offense, his baserunning, any distracting effect he may have on the basepaths, I am not sure. But, from my observations, he is a solid leadoff man. Statistically, in the first inning, he has a .378 OBP, which is very solid.

 

Additionally, for as much flack as he takes for his mid-7's OPS, with runners in scoring position, he has an .897 OPS. Not so bad afterall for a left fielder.

 

Ichiro, on the other hand, has a .658 OPS with RISP.

 

One more thing- I understand that RBI's are now thought of by some as independent of individual performance and thus an antiquated statistic, but I think Scottie is due a little credit for his 33 RBI thus far- he is on pace for about 60, which is a heck of a lot better than the 25 he had last season.

 

By no means is Scottie the best left fielder in the world. But he isn't the piece of s*** some make him out to be. And remember people, not everyone on the field can be a $5 or 6 million dollar player.

[beautox]

The Pods issue is not quite cut and dry like we want it to be though. Everyone on here by now probably knows how harsh I am on Pods, and for IMO good reason. But the fact is this:to replace Pods' shoddy defense in LF, you have to not only get a solid defending LFer, but you also HAVE to get one that can hit leadoff for you. Look up and down our order, there is not 1 guy who could even pretend to fill the role as "Leadoff Hitter"....and don't tell me "Iguchi" because we all know better than that, and hes the closest to a fit there is.

 

With that said, its alot harder to go out on the market telling yourself as a GM "OK, I need to find this team a LFer that can play pretty good defense, AND who has the mentality and ability to leadoff for my team. Someone who will take his share of pitches, sacrifice himself to move runners over, not get flyball greedy."

 

KW has his work cutout for him, and no, Josh Fields is not the answer with our current roster setup.

 

Chris Denorfia is though, deal Politte + Redding/Montero/Logan or Haeger/Phillips to the Reds and were golden. Denorfia's ceiling has been established he will be 26 in 5 days. Hes an on base machine and his maso menos pop, and hes better at stealing a bag than Kevin Youkillis, he projects to be a lead off man. The Reds already has all 3 OF positions filled and a lead off hitter in Freely, its pretty apparent he doesn't fit into their plans at this juncture. The reds haven't been to the post season since '96 and haven't delivered since building the great American ball park in '03, they need BP/SP help now.

 

The White Sox offense this year and for prolly the next 2-3 years appears to be a station to station offense, OBP and defense are huge and Denorfia appears to be able to steal a base when needed(14sb/1cs). I think he would be a perfect fit this year and for years to come. He is rated as the reds best defensive outfielder and he doesn't have a podsednik/pierre pie arm.

 

with the addition of Denorfia the white sox would bare a striking similarity to the red sox, only much better defense, and more pop, and better starting pitching *potential, its apparent to everyone on this board outside of Jose the SP has underachieved this year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Just a few observations:

 

Well, for one thing, he is a solid leadoff hitter. I really don't know what it is, but we all know that when Scottie is hitting, the White Sox are scoring. No one player seems to impact our offense more so than him when he is hitting. The White Sox lead the league in runs scored in the first inning (79). The Mets are second (75), and after that it isn't particularly close. I don't find it a coincidence that also happens to be the inning that Scottie leads off every game in which he plays. Whether it is his offense, his baserunning, any distracting effect he may have on the basepaths, I am not sure. But, from my observations, he is a solid leadoff man. Statistically, in the first inning, he has a .378 OBP, which is very solid.

 

Additionally, for as much flack as he takes for his mid-7's OPS, with runners in scoring position, he has an .897 OPS. Not so bad afterall for a left fielder.

 

Ichiro, on the other hand, has a .658 OPS with RISP.

 

One more thing- I understand that RBI's are now thought of by some as independent of individual performance and thus an antiquated statistic, but I think Scottie is due a little credit for his 33 RBI thus far- he is on pace for about 60, which is a heck of a lot better than the 25 he had last season.

 

By no means is Scottie the best left fielder in the world. But he isn't the piece of s*** some make him out to be. And remember people, not everyone on the field can be a $5 or 6 million dollar player.

 

Keep posting.

[Maverick0984]

not pointing to anyone in particular but in general, alot of the \"arguments\" expressed here are just personal opinions based on mostly incomplete observations. the % of us here that have seen EVERY single play is very minute and those saying he\'s horrible might have very well missed some of the better plays and those saying he\'s wonderful might have missed some of the bad plays. it\'s difficult to argue opinions because of this, and because everyone has their own opinion, that should be blantantly obvious.

 

that being said, those using opinions to argue anything at all are being completly asinine because they have nothing to back up an opinion with.

 

this arguement to pick out one: \"i see him take horrible routes everytime\" is just stupidity, unless you have been to every game and witnessed every hit out to him, you simply cannot make this argument. Same goes for the flipside, you cannot say he never takes bad routes...thats what erks me about many of the arguments on soxtalk, so many people use over exaggerating words like always/never to try and prove some point, when they have no real basis for using that word.

 

Pods seeing lots of pitches is a good thing, it doesn\'t matter if they are on 2 strikes or not. Forcing the pitcher to throw lots of pitches tires him out faster and he\'ll start to feel that come the 4th or 5th inning. I wish all our batters saw as many pitches as he did at times, case in point, a select few that swing at pitch #1 . but hell, if they get a hit on that 1st pitch then great, but in MOST cases, seeing as many pitches as you can is GENERALLY a good thing.

 

anyway, i tried to be unclear as to those i was referring to, but i needed to vent, i\'m at work, i\'m bored, and want to go home .

[Gregory Pratt]

Just a few observations:

 

Well, for one thing, he is a solid leadoff hitter. I really don't know what it is, but we all know that when Scottie is hitting, the White Sox are scoring. No one player seems to impact our offense more so than him when he is hitting. The White Sox lead the league in runs scored in the first inning (79). The Mets are second (75), and after that it isn't particularly close. I don't find it a coincidence that also happens to be the inning that Scottie leads off every game in which he plays. Whether it is his offense, his baserunning, any distracting effect he may have on the basepaths, I am not sure. But, from my observations, he is a solid leadoff man. Statistically, in the first inning, he has a .378 OBP, which is very solid.

 

Additionally, for as much flack as he takes for his mid-7's OPS, with runners in scoring position, he has an .897 OPS. Not so bad afterall for a left fielder.

 

Ichiro, on the other hand, has a .658 OPS with RISP.

 

One more thing- I understand that RBI's are now thought of by some as independent of individual performance and thus an antiquated statistic, but I think Scottie is due a little credit for his 33 RBI thus far- he is on pace for about 60, which is a heck of a lot better than the 25 he had last season.

 

By no means is Scottie the best left fielder in the world. But he isn't the piece of s*** some make him out to be. And remember people, not everyone on the field can be a $5 or 6 million dollar player.

 

I'm glad I'm not completely alone.

[Maverick0984]

The things the guy does well are either mostly a product of the great hitting behind him (runs) or an overvalued statistic PROVEN in this thread to be a contributing factor in only 1/3rd of the games the statistic occurs in (steals)

 

I already said, many pages ago, that your count in steals not meaning anything is beyond bull. Him scoring after he steals second has nothing to do with him, he is counting on the people behind him after his steal to hit him in....had they hit him in every time, your argument would be completely invalid since he\'d produce 100% of the time, but clearly it had nothing to do with anything he changed. Stealing bases has mental effects on pitchers that cause them to make mistakes if they are thinking too much about the base runner. that is some knowledge you would have gained from playing simple high school baseball...aparently you never did, or you missed that day. it is beyond me how you can try and disprove the importance of steals and baserunning. All you proved was that you can add and do percentages, the data tells us nothing. for the love of god, please don\'t say you proved anything ever again in accordance with that \"stat.\"

 

if anyone had responded to my previous post saying something similar, i\'m sorry, i didn\'t feel like going back to look for it, it was some time ago, and i remember checking a page after and it hadn\'t been responded to.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Maverick0984

[beautox]

286 BA, 397 OBP, in the playoffs. Not great but very serviceable. Not to mention one of the biggest home runs in white sox history. Pods led us to our 1st world series title in 88 years as our lead off man and I recognize the fact hes not the best lead off man in the world, but for right now he is playing well enough to deserve some respect from the fans. He is an integral aspect of team chemistry and we have a few glaring needs to improve on. If we are gonna rip Pods then lets rip Mark Buehrle, Fraddy Garcia and Jon Garland. Should we get rid of them? I think not

 

Yes lets, because thats what honest fans of their team do, they look at the facts with out rose colored glasses, and can honestly express an opinion about a player and not be a homer.

 

Mark Buehrle has been mediocre this year, thus far and that we have a potential replacement or a AAAA in Heath Philipps down at AAA(time will tell), Mark is about to get real expensive real soon.

 

Freddy Garcia is older, and has lost some mph on his fast ball, hes not a control pitcher and always has been labeled as a "big game pitcher" which is great when the game is on the line, but far to often he plays to the level of talent hes facing.

 

Jon Garland is a enigma, hes pitched over 1000 innings in the bigs, and is a .500 pitcher, at times when he pitches inside he can be dominate and other times he can be a mental midget and not pitch over mistakes.

Edited July 11, 2006 by beautox

[Gregory Pratt]

Yes lets, because thats what honest fans of their team do, they look at the facts with out rose colored glasses, and can honestly express an opinion about a player and not be a homer.

 

Mark Buehrle has been mediocre this year, thus far and that we have a potential replacement or a AAAA in Heath Philipps down at AAA(time will tell), Mark is about to get real expensive real soon.

 

Freddy Garcia is older, and has lost some mph on his fast ball, hes not a control pitcher and always has been labeled as a "big game pitcher" which is great when the game is on the line, but far to often he plays to the level of talent hes facing.

 

Jon Garland is a enigma, hes pitched over 1000 innings in the bigs, and is a .500 pitcher, at times when he pitches inside he can be dominate and other times he can be a mental midget and not pitch over mistakes.

 

I call bulls*** on the bold.

[beautox]

a 4.02ERA and 1.32WHIP is mediocre THUS FAR, his career ERA is 3.67 and his career WHIP is 1.24. Don't kid yourself he has been Mediocre for this year thus far for being the staff "ace".

[Jordan4life_2007]

a 4.02ERA and 1.32WHIP is mediocre THUS FAR, his career ERA is 3.67 and his career WHIP is 1.24. Don't kid yourself he has been Mediocre for this year thus far for being the staff "ace".

 

It's amazing what one horrific start can do to your season numbers. Take away the Cubs fiasco, he's been pretty good.

[beautox]

MAY 30 @CLE 0 1 2.89 0 6.0 8 4 1 3

JUN 04 TEX 0 1 3.31 0 7.0 9 6 4 3

JUN 21 STL 1 0 3.27 0 7.0 10 4 0 5

JUL 02 @CHC 0 1 3.86 0 5.0 13 10 0 4

JUL 07 BOS 0 1 4.02 0 6.1 9 5 0 3

 

its been more than one, more like five.

[iamshack]

Literally the ONLY thing that Scott Podsednik arguably provides us with over any other major league replacement is steals and runs, and as it turns out, the value of those two numbers seems to be inflated.

 

 

Now he IS third in runs, and he IS second in steals. However, the runs are more of a product of the success behind him than the runs he is generating with his legs this season. I'm going to argue in this thread that probably less than half of his steals have been truly meaningful in terms of determining the outcome of the game.

 

Additionally, a lot of his offensive numbers in terms of hits and RBIs are occuring in blowout games. In fact, six of the first seven games in which he had an RBI were lopsided victories for the White Sox: 10-4 Sox over Cle April 1st (1 RBI), 9-0 over KC April 17th (1 RBI), 7-1 over MIN April 21st (1 RBI), and 9-1 and 12-5 over LAA two consecutive days May 9th and 10th (1 RBI each). The lone game he contributed to that was close in that stretch was @ LAA, where he had two RBIS in a game where we still won by a larger margin than that (3). Additionally, 7 other RBIs out of his 32 total occurred in lopsided games in which the White Sox won, and a handful of other RBIs occurred in losses for the White Sox. Aside from the Grand Slam against Houston, less than 10 of Podsednik's RBIs this season have been at all meaningful in terms of determining the outcome in a White Sox victory over 6 total games. And all of those games he had 1 RBI.

 

Isn't this sort of like criticizing Bobby Jenks for only contributing saves and not enough wins? Or Jim Thome for not stealing enough bases?

 

Because the two categories Scottie is third and second in, repectively, runs and steals, are the two things other than OBP, which he is most responsible to do.

 

And I am sorry, but picking on the leadoff man for "hoarding" RBI in situations where the game was not on the line just isn't valid. And especially picking on him for having RBI in games that we lost? Perhaps he should have given up so we could have lost by more.

 

I have no problem with criticizing players. But make them valid criticisms at least.

[beautox]

and its not like i said he was "bad" i said he was mediocre.

[Gregory Pratt]

It's amazing what one horrific start can do to your season numbers. Take away the Cubs fiasco, he's been pretty good.

 

Yeah, that's why I called bulls***.

[beautox]

like i said its wasn't just one start its been 5, and i said he hasnt been BAD just maso menos, i expect more from MB, sorry you forgot to take off your homer glasses when looking at his stats for this season thus far.

[Gregory Pratt]

like i said its wasn't just one start its been 5, and i said he hasnt been BAD just maso menos, i expect more from MB, sorry you forgot to take off your homer glasses when looking at his stats for this season thus far.

 

I'm not wearing homer glasses. You have your opinion that Buehrle's been mediocre; I don't share it. That'll do.

[iamshack]

and its not like i said he was "bad" i said he was mediocre.

 

So had the all star break come on July 1st, just 10 days ago, when Mark had a 3.22 ERA, would you have said he was having a "wonderful" year thus far?

 

I'm sorry, but when each game only counts as 1, no matter how bad or how good, I'll take Mark's performance overall this first half. There is a difference between someone that pitches to a 4 ERA all year and one who is outstanding outside of a few rare starts.

 

Mark has been the latter.

[beautox]

So had the all star break come on July 1st, just 10 days ago, when Mark had a 3.22 ERA, would you have said he was having a "wonderful" year thus far?

 

I'm sorry, but when each game only counts as 1, no matter how bad or how good, I'll take Mark's performance overall this first half. There is a difference between someone that pitches to a 4 ERA all year and one who is outstanding outside of a few rare starts.

 

Mark has been the latter.

 

a few? hes had 18 starts, 5 of which sucked, thats not a few.

[SABR Sox]

Just a few observations:

 

Well, for one thing, he is a solid leadoff hitter. I really don't know what it is, but we all know that when Scottie is hitting, the White Sox are scoring. No one player seems to impact our offense more so than him when he is hitting. The White Sox lead the league in runs scored in the first inning (79). The Mets are second (75), and after that it isn't particularly close. I don't find it a coincidence that also happens to be the inning that Scottie leads off every game in which he plays. Whether it is his offense, his baserunning, any distracting effect he may have on the basepaths, I am not sure. But, from my observations, he is a solid leadoff man. Statistically, in the first inning, he has a .378 OBP, which is very solid.

 

Additionally, for as much flack as he takes for his mid-7's OPS, with runners in scoring position, he has an .897 OPS. Not so bad afterall for a left fielder.

 

Ichiro, on the other hand, has a .658 OPS with RISP.

 

One more thing- I understand that RBI's are now thought of by some as independent of individual performance and thus an antiquated statistic, but I think Scottie is due a little credit for his 33 RBI thus far- he is on pace for about 60, which is a heck of a lot better than the 25 he had last season.

 

By no means is Scottie the best left fielder in the world. But he isn't the piece of s*** some make him out to be. And remember people, not everyone on the field can be a $5 or 6 million dollar player.

 

For one thing, he isn't a solid leadoff hitter, not even a solid baseball player.

 

They lead the league in RS in the first inning, NOT ALL DUE to Podsednik. Your going to score with just about any ML leadoff hitter when you have a guy like Iguchi batting in the 2-spot along with the fact the White Sox have the best 3-4-5 trio in the majors leagues. Put Crede at the top, A.J., he'll even Uribe, and they're going to score runs simply becuase the men in front of Pods are hitting so damn well.

 

Hitting with RISP isn't a trait thats justifies a player as a good leadoff hitter, unless your David Ortiz and your doinf it EVERY season consistently. Too many players, and teams for that matter, can hit real well with RISP one year, and then hit like crap in situational spots the next.

 

And as you said RBI's are flawed, so lets not even bring them up.

 

It's nice to see him OBP is .370+ in the first inning, but he's putrid the rest of the game.

 

Sorry guys, slap and run leadoff hitters suck.

[beautox]

kevin youkillis > you