FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 03:34 AM) When you threw "God's will" into the equation, you made it analogous. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the fertilized ova. But the sudden lack of concern for the fate of the fertilized ova (i.e., when it is convenient for them) is at the heart of the hypocrisy, and the only reason I take issue. If a couple spends every day of their adult lives railing against the evils of killing human embryos (claiming such an act is in defiance of God's Will) and then one day they elect for a medical procedure that in fact kills human embryos as a matter of course, that is hypocritical. It is the very definition of hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandy125 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 10, 2006 -> 09:45 PM) My view is this. I am an organ donor, just like my wife is. Once you are dead, what they do with the organs doesnt really matter. If it can help someone, it would be the right thing to help that person. The same goes for stem cell research. I am not for abortion, but people are already aborting fetus's and the bodies are cast away, not buried as medical waste. I am not against using them for stem cell research and for a possible supply of stem cells later on. Some of my conservative legislators have a misguided view that this will start a run on abortions. That cause and effect is a weak link at best. As a diabetic the cure for my disease and a lot of other diseases probably lies within stem cell research. I hope for a cure, and we have seen some strides with Iclet cell replacement. I hope for the cure not just for myself, but for my son and future children. In my family the gene for diabetes is very very dominant. My grandfather, my mother, all 3 of her siblings, and at least 5 of my cousins all have diabetes. My mother watched her father die of complications when she was 10, I saw her pass away from complications a few years ago at 58. That is a strong link, and something that I am sad to say probably was passed on to my son. If this can help diabetics, and all sorts of other diseases then I am for it. Dying too soon when we have the technology to help fix this or in the future fix it, is stupid. Just wanted to through in my quick viewpoint on that. I do not think that it will start a run on abortions, but that it would strengthen the case for allowing abortions to continue. It could be said, "Well, we are already using aborted fetus's for stem cell research. We cannot regulate abortion because we would then lose that ability." And Jim, there are many Christians who are actually consistent with what they say about IVF, abortion, and the death penalty if you want to bring that in as well. It seems like you are painting Christians who are against abortion with the same broad stroke and saying that they are all hypocrites. I know that you are not actually saying that, but it is coming across that way IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(vandy125 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 02:30 PM) And Jim, there are many Christians who are actually consistent with what they say about IVF, abortion, and the death penalty if you want to bring that in as well. It seems like you are painting Christians who are against abortion with the same broad stroke and saying that they are all hypocrites. I know that you are not actually saying that, but it is coming across that way IMHO. The point is taken (as is that of YAS and others), and it's not my intent to paint all Christians with the same brush. That is why I made a point of regerring to the couples I take issue with "nominal Christians" -- that is, Christians in name only but not deed, based on their inability to actually walk it like they talk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 George Bush is no Grover Cleveland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 11, 2006 -> 08:50 PM) Man, Flaxx...it seems to me like you're really stretching to find hypocrisy there. Yeah, I'm sure there are fundamentalist christians who are using these facilities and at the same time opposing the research, but I don't see much use in pointing it out unless you can prove to me that a large majority are. Seems like you're straining to find a group of people to go after specifically. I think it makes the point well enough to say that opposition to stem cell research for religious reasons not teamed with a desire to outlaw in vitro fertilization clinics that use current methods is quite hypocritical, whether or not people are making use of those services. i think its a pretty damn good point flaxx made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 The Senate Passed the bill, 63-37. Not enough to override a veto. Finally! A Wedge issue! Whoopee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:22 PM) The Senate Passed the bill, 63-37. Not enough to override a veto. Finally! A Wedge issue! Whoopee! It is PROBABLY not enough. Thing is, some people will vote against a bill but still vote to override the veto, if their party bets big on it. Its happened before. They'd need 3 more. But more than likely, that wouldn't happen for 3+ senators, so Bush will likely use his first veto on this one, where it is highly likely to succeed (and is a pet issue for him personally). Wedge issue indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 02:30 PM) It is PROBABLY not enough. Thing is, some people will vote against a bill but still vote to override the veto, if their party bets big on it. Its happened before. They'd need 3 more. But more than likely, that wouldn't happen for 3+ senators, so Bush will likely use his first veto on this one, where it is highly likely to succeed (and is a pet issue for him personally). Wedge issue indeed. The House vote was 238 to 194. If I did the math right, something like 290 votes are needed to override the veto in that house. So it's almost certainly not going to be overridden with this Congress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:48 PM) The House vote was 238 to 194. If I did the math right, something like 290 votes are needed to override the veto in that house. So it's almost certainly not going to be overridden with this Congress. If the house vote was that short of override, then yeah, I'd agree. I figured it would be about as close as the Senate vote (relatively), but apparently not. I wasn't aware of how the house voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I'm getting to "That man!" levels with Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:56 PM) I'm getting to "That man!" levels with Bush. Care to translate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:58 PM) Care to translate? It's an FDR joke. Roosevelt was so despised by the richest of the rich (and make no mistake, they were his biggest critics/enemies) that the snoots would call him "That man!" instead of say his name because they despised him so. Edited July 18, 2006 by Gregory Pratt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:58 PM) Care to translate? It's like an updated version of the old Marlo Thomas series, but with George in the lead role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:29 PM) It's like an updated version of the old Marlo Thomas series, but with George in the lead role. Care to translate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 02:56 PM) I'm getting to "That man!" levels with Bush. Would an unrequested back massage help placate you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:32 PM) Would an unrequested back massage help placate you? You know, I think it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:28 PM) It's an FDR joke. Roosevelt was so despised by the richest of the rich (and make no mistake, they were his biggest critics/enemies) that the snoots would call him "That man!" instead of say his name because they despised him so. Heh. Sounds a lot like the Harry Potter thing. "He who shall not be named" or whatever they say. I actually saw a bumper sticker once that said "Republicans for Voldemort", done nicely in the correct colors and layout of the Bush/Cheney stickers of the time. Took me a second to recognize the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:22 PM) The Senate Passed the bill, 63-37. Not enough to override a veto. Finally! A Wedge issue! Whoopee! this isn't an issue the Republicans would want to use as a "wedge". far too many moderates and republican voters support stem cell research. Edited July 18, 2006 by mr_genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:41 PM) Heh. Sounds a lot like the Harry Potter thing. "He who shall not be named" or whatever they say. I actually saw a bumper sticker once that said "Republicans for Voldemort", done nicely in the correct colors and layout of the Bush/Cheney stickers of the time. Took me a second to recognize the difference. I saw that sticker, too. It cracked me up. I think we need a "George Bush is no Grover Cleveland: For Shame" bumper sticker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 QUOTE(mr_genius @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 03:55 PM) this isn't an issue the Republicans would want to use as a "wedge". far too many moderates and republican voters support stem cell research. I sort of meant it was a wedge issue for our side for once. The Republicans have plenty of them...the hating of the gays, all the other religious stuff, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxpride77 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 09:15 PM) I sort of meant it was a wedge issue for our side for once. The Republicans have plenty of them...the hating of the gays, all the other religious stuff, etc. Great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:32 PM) Would an unrequested back massage help placate you? Oh, my God, no no no no no. I thought you were making some odd, quirky joke that I didn't quite get. Now that I know what you're referring.... :puke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I just wanted to post the vote from the Senate here. If you have a senator that voted against this, and you disagree with him/her, please send an e-mail, call, or let him/her know about your displeasure. Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Yea Alexander (R-TN), Yea Allard (R-CO), Nay Allen (R-VA), Nay Baucus (D-MT), Yea Bayh (D-IN), Yea Bennett (R-UT), Yea Biden (D-DE), Yea Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Bond (R-MO), Nay Boxer (D-CA), Yea Brownback (R-KS), Nay Bunning (R-KY), Nay Burns (R-MT), Nay Burr (R-NC), Yea Byrd (D-WV), Yea Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea Chafee (R-RI), Yea Chambliss (R-GA), Nay Clinton (D-NY), Yea Coburn (R-OK), Nay Cochran (R-MS), Yea Coleman (R-MN), Nay Collins (R-ME), Yea Conrad (D-ND), Yea Cornyn (R-TX), Nay Craig (R-ID), Nay Crapo (R-ID), Nay Dayton (D-MN), Yea DeMint (R-SC), Nay DeWine (R-OH), Nay Dodd (D-CT), Yea Dole (R-NC), Nay Domenici (R-NM), Nay Dorgan (D-ND), Yea Durbin (D-IL), Yea Ensign (R-NV), Nay Enzi (R-WY), Nay Feingold (D-WI), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Yea Frist (R-TN), Yea Graham (R-SC), Nay Grassley (R-IA), Nay Gregg (R-NH), Yea Hagel (R-NE), Nay Harkin (D-IA), Yea Hatch (R-UT), Yea Hutchison (R-TX), Yea Inhofe (R-OK), Nay Inouye (D-HI), Yea Isakson (R-GA), Nay Jeffords (I-VT), Yea Johnson (D-SD), Yea Kennedy (D-MA), Yea Kerry (D-MA), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea Kyl (R-AZ), Nay Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea Leahy (D-VT), Yea Levin (D-MI), Yea Lieberman (D-CT), Yea Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Lott (R-MS), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Yea Martinez (R-FL), Nay McCain (R-AZ), Yea McConnell (R-KY), Nay Menendez (D-NJ), Yea Mikulski (D-MD), Yea Murkowski (R-AK), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea Nelson (D-FL), Yea Nelson (D-NE), Nay Obama (D-IL), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea Reed (D-RI), Yea Reid (D-NV), Yea Roberts (R-KS), Nay Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea Salazar (D-CO), Yea Santorum (R-PA), Nay Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea Sessions (R-AL), Nay Shelby (R-AL), Nay Smith (R-OR), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea Specter (R-PA), Yea Stabenow (D-MI), Yea Stevens (R-AK), Yea Sununu (R-NH), Nay Talent (R-MO), Nay Thomas (R-WY), Nay Thune (R-SD), Nay Vitter (R-LA), Nay Voinovich (R-OH), Nay Warner (R-VA), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 to the Republicans who broke rank and sided with the Democratic Majority on this. Kudos. Ben Nelson of Nebraska... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Per "BREAKING NEWS" headline on cnn.com, its official: Bush has vetoed this bill. 6 years and this is the one thing he chooses to veto? This president is a complete joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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