Balta1701 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:01 PM) So why not leave the games/innings in the Mackowiak table? Because until I posted it I didn't know whether or not it'd fit on one line and it'd have made no sense going over to a 2nd line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:01 PM) So why not leave the games/innings in the Mackowiak table? Are you Ross Gload? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... So you're anti Brian this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 01:51 PM) The Rowand who hit .223 in June and .185 in July so far? Or the Anderson that hit .196 in June and 333 in July so far? Anderson is playing significantly better than Rowand is right now. Then again, I was never as high on Row as most, and I fully believe Jason could strike him out low and away. Rather than cherry-picking a week and a half of Anderson's July stats, I'll say that the Rowand who is hitting .264 with .434 SLG is a much better bet over the course of this season than Anderson's .192 BA/.324 SLG. That said, I don't see the point in bringing Rowand back and agree that Anderson is the better long-term option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:38 PM) Are you Ross Gload? Ha, no. Anyone think Ross bears a striking resemblance to the Milfhunter? QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... How many times must it be clearly pointed out that the Phillies are looking to DUMP salary, not take on $12 million dollar salaries? The ONLY way Vazquez goes to Philly is in a deal for Abreu, and even that has no chance of happening. Edited July 13, 2006 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:42 PM) Rather than cherry-picking a week and a half of Anderson's July stats, I'll say that the Rowand who is hitting .264 with .434 SLG is a much better bet over the course of this season than Anderson's .192 BA/.324 SLG. That said, I don't see the point in bringing Rowand back and agree that Anderson is the better long-term option. Cherry-picking? What about the player who has gotten worse over the last month and a half or the one that's getting better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:47 PM) Cherry-picking? What about the player who has gotten worse over the last month and a half or the one that's getting better? WARNING: SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! Seriously, a month and a half's worth of stats means almost nothing. And it's more like 5 weeks than a month and a half. And Rowand's numbers in June were still better than Anderson's. Edited July 13, 2006 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitewashed in '05 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... Who is going to replace him in rotation or who is going to replace bmac in the bullpen. That's not even considering bmac and how he would feel going into the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:48 PM) WARNING: SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! Seriously, a month and a half's worth of stats means almost nothing. And it's more like 5 weeks than a month and a half. And Rowand's numbers in June were still better than Anderson's. A month and a half is a pretty good time period to see where a player is trending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I will say one thing in this thread and that's it: Just because someone thinks Anderson is or will be better than Rowand, does not mean that Hawk has persuaded them to think that, it simply means they agree. As do I. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:55 PM) A month and a half is a pretty good time period to see where a player is trending. Like I said, it's more like five weeks than a month and a half. And Anderson sucked for four of those five weeks. I agree that Anderson may very well be trending upwards, but a week's worth of stats doesn't really say much. Rowand's already an established average-to-above-average hitter, so a bad five weeks is probably more indicative of a slump than anything else. I don't see any hard evidence that his hitting skills are on the decline. But I am optimistic about your boy Anderson. It may take time, but he's going to develop into a solid hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 05:08 PM) Like I said, it's more like five weeks than a month and a half. And Anderson sucked for four of those five weeks. I agree that Anderson may very well be trending upwards, but a week's worth of stats doesn't really say much. Rowand's already an established average-to-above-average hitter, so a bad five weeks is probably more indicative of a slump than anything else. I don't see any hard evidence that his hitting skills are on the decline. But I am optimistic about your boy Anderson. It may take time, but he's going to develop into a solid hitter. I for one wouldn't say that Rowand is declining, but I would say that Rowand had a good couple months, and now a bad month or so, which means he's trending right towards his career numbers, and putting up exactly the numbers I was so disappointed in last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... Vazquez has no value, just because of his contract? I'd pretty much have to disagree completely with that. When the Yankees traded Vazquez to Arizona, they picked up $3 mill in each of the next 3 years of his contract(so instead of Arizona paying $9.5, $11.5, and $12.5 million, they would have paid $6.5, $8.5, and $9.5). Arizona then traded him to Chicago, and in doing so, picked up an additional $1 million for this season, and $3 million more in '07. So, with a little simple arithmetic, you see that the Sox are paying Vazquez $7.5 million this year and $6.5 million this year. In a market where a mediocre SP numbers-wise with injury problems in his past as well as a losing record for his career, but with great stuff, gets a contract equal in value to that of a .290 40 100 .900, solid defensive, under 30 1Bman, Vazquez's $7.5 million this year is a bargain, and his final year is even moreso. Of course there's a catch, in that due to him demanding and then receiving a trade, he does not become a free agent until after the 2008 season and he will enter an arbitration period following the 2007 season. I'm not exactly clear on what the details are on that situation, but if it is just normal arbitration, you could probably just not tender him a contract following the 2007 season; however, I have a feeling you probably can't do that, and his 2008 salary would be an 8 digit figure - not to say the Sox couldn't pick up some of that, but that would be something to figure out at a future date. Regardless, with the contract AJ Burnett got, I know Vazquez has value, and trading him for Aaron Rowand would be a desperate move when the team is not in a state of desperation. If you're going to get Aaron Rowand back - and it makes very little sense really, short-term and long - it's going to cost you young players, not veterans with heavy contracts. Vazquez has no value to Philadelphia, but does to other teams in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 08:59 PM) Vazquez has no value, just because of his contract? I'd pretty much have to disagree completely with that. When the Yankees traded Vazquez to Arizona, they picked up $3 mill in each of the next 3 years of his contract(so instead of Arizona paying $9.5, $11.5, and $12.5 million, they would have paid $6.5, $8.5, and $9.5). Arizona then traded him to Chicago, and in doing so, picked up an additional $1 million for this season, and $3 million more in '07. So, with a little simple arithmetic, you see that the Sox are paying Vazquez $7.5 million this year and $6.5 million this year. In a market where a mediocre SP numbers-wise with injury problems in his past as well as a losing record for his career, but with great stuff, gets a contract equal in value to that of a .290 40 100 .900, solid defensive, under 30 1Bman, Vazquez's $7.5 million this year is a bargain, and his final year is even moreso. Of course there's a catch, in that due to him demanding and then receiving a trade, he does not become a free agent until after the 2008 season and he will enter an arbitration period following the 2007 season. I'm not exactly clear on what the details are on that situation, but if it is just normal arbitration, you could probably just not tender him a contract following the 2007 season; however, I have a feeling you probably can't do that, and his 2008 salary would be an 8 digit figure - not to say the Sox couldn't pick up some of that, but that would be something to figure out at a future date. Regardless, with the contract AJ Burnett got, I know Vazquez has value, and trading him for Aaron Rowand would be a desperate move when the team is not in a state of desperation. If you're going to get Aaron Rowand back - and it makes very little sense really, short-term and long - it's going to cost you young players, not veterans with heavy contracts. Vazquez has no value to Philadelphia, but does to other teams in the league. Arizona didnt pick up additional money more than the Yankees were picking up. In fact, at first they demanded anyone picking up Vazquez would pay his entire salary. They kept some of that Yankee money. The Sox are paying Vazquez approximately $10 million a year, maybe a little more. And if Vazquez continues to pitch like he's pitched, there is no way the White Sox will offer him arbitration in 2008 when minimally he must be offered almost $10 million. Edited July 14, 2006 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:24 PM) Arizona didnt pick up additional money more than the Yankees were picking up. In fact, at first they demanded anyone picking up Vazquez would pay his entire salary. They kept some of that Yankee money. The Sox are paying Vazquez approximately $10 million a year, maybe a little more. And if Vazquez continues to pitch like he's pitched, there is no way the White Sox will offer him arbitration in 2008 when minimally he must be offered almost $10 million. It wouldn't matter if Arizona was paying ALL of his salary. Vazquez does not receive a check from the WS, the Yankees, and Arizona. The money is paid in cash and it is over with. So the WS are currently paying ALL of Vazquez's $11.5 million this year, and are on the hook for $12.5 million next season. Yes, they did receive what, $5 million from Arizona in the trade? So basically, that means the money coming out of the WS pocket is about $9 million this season and $10 next year. But if Vazquez is traded, it isn't like that money leaves the White Sox and goes with Vazquez. If he were traded tomorrow, the team that acquires him will be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary this season (approx 5.3 million or so?) and ALL $12.5 million next year. Of course, the WS might send cash, as the other teams had to to move him, but in that case, they had better be getting some damn good players back, not some slop of prospects. Either way, his salary makes him difficult to move to anyone other than a contender, and we aren't giving him to any contender. Edited July 14, 2006 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:40 PM) It wouldn't matter if Arizona was paying ALL of his salary. Vazquez's salary does not receive a check from the WS, the Yankees, and Arizona. The money is paid in cash and it is over with. So the WS are currently paying ALL of Vazquez's $11.5 million this year, and are on the hook for $12.5 million next season. Yes, they did receive what, $5 million from Arizona in the trade? So basically, that means the money coming out of the WS pocket is about $9 million this season and $10 next year. But if Vazquez is traded, it isn't like that money leaves the White Sox and goes with Vazquez. If he were traded tomorrow, the team that acquires him will be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary this season (approx 5.3 million or so?) and ALL $12.5 million next year. Of course, the WS might send cash, as the other teams had to to move him, but in that case, they had better be getting some damn good players back, not some slop of prospects. Either way, his salary makes him difficult to move to anyone other than a contender, and we aren't giving him to any contender. I understand that, and that is the point I was trying to make. Arizona didn't give the White Sox all of the money they were getting from the Yankees. But if Vazquez was traded, other teams would probably expect the White Sox to at least kick in the same amount of money they are receiving from Arizona. If KW moves a starter, and who could blame him if Gary Majewski and a couple of other bums are worth Lopez and Kearns, its going to be with an NL club or an AL club with no chance IMO. Considering what KW gave up to get Vazquez, I would be surprised if he gave up on him after half a season though. Edited July 14, 2006 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:46 PM) I understand that, and that is the point I was trying to make. Arizona didn't give the White Sox all of the money they were getting from the Yankees. But if Vazquez was traded, other teams would probably expect the White Sox to at least kick in the same amount of money they are receiving from Arizona. If KW moves a starter, and who could blame him if Gary Majewski and a couple of other bums are worth Lopez and Kearns, its going to be with an NL club or an AL club with no chance IMO. DA, I am sorry, I was just trying to add to what you were saying in response to Witesoxfan, who not only made his mistaken assumption in this thread, but in the one entitled "Vazquez" as well. My apologies for the misunderstanding. Edited July 14, 2006 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 10:16 AM) Sweet mother of God. Another f***ing Rowand rumor. Too much manlove for a player that a lot of people on this site wanted gone 2 years ago because he couldnt hit a slider, and crashed his dirtbike in the offseason. ROTFLMFAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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