Garcia/Garland to the mets?

[Flash Tizzle]

Because how many times has it happened, and will these teams like the Mets give up a Mike Pelfrey for a Freddy Garcia, after they've already been burned once from a similar sort of deal before?

Why not?

 

Dbaho, if you were a general manager I can only imagine how you'd run your organization. You'd never try and persue top prospects from desperate teams because they seldom occur, and your minor league system would be baron because, "How often does a Liriano or Garza come along?" No need to persue top talent when soft tossing, projected 5th starters are available in the draft.

 

Lopsided trades are created out of situations such as those facing Minaya. If he's not willing to overpay, he can take his chances elsewhere. This is what I expect from Williams-- not to play patty-cake and help out another national league team, but take more than necessary for his commodities. Commodities which don't have to be moved at this point.

 

In addition to taking a risk with having a starter come back to bite us in possible postseason play, there's a possibility any prospect/BParm received falls apart. We're not completely safe on any deal. If Minaya --or any other general manager-- is willing to overpay and provide a package which is impossible to pass up, I wouldn't blame Williams for taking it.

 

Every trade scenario is obviously different. Minaya may believe with the Marlins rebuilding process moving quicker than expected, and contracts expiring over the next several years for their club, their window is closing. Surrendering a top prospect, even in the presence of the Kazmir fiasco, may be possible in his mind since their payroll will always be high and money will always be available.

 

For our minor league system, I'm under the philosophy you can't find a Liriano when you can't find a Neifi Perez. With these trade discussions, you don't persist for a Milledge, you're not going to get one. Of course it's Minaya's decision whether or not to accept, but if I were Williams, I wouldn't budge one bit from including him. No way in HELL am I trading either Vazquez or Garcia for merely bullpen help or fringe prospects.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Chisoxfn]

Because how many times has it happened, and will these teams like the Mets give up a Mike Pelfrey for a Freddy Garcia, after they've already been burned once from a similar sort of deal before?

Pelfrey and a reliever (Heilman or Sanchez) and I wouldn't take anything less. Pelfrey could help us out in the pen now if we wanted him to while being our potential 6th starter if anyone goes down while he develops into a guy that could replace another starter next year or in the following years if necessary.

[DBAHO]

Pelfrey and a reliever (Heilman or Sanchez) and I wouldn't take anything less. Pelfrey could help us out in the pen now if we wanted him to while being our potential 6th starter if anyone goes down while he develops into a guy that could replace another starter next year or in the following years if necessary.

Surely though the Mets would have scouted someone like Freddy, seen that his velocity is down and his numbers are getting worse, and then they wouldn't make a deal like this?

 

It could be Kazmir for Zambrano all over again.

 

Why not?

 

Dbaho, if you were a general manager I can only imagine how you'd run your organization. You'd never try and persue top prospects from desperate teams because they seldom occur, and your minor league system would be baron because, "How often does a Liriano or Garza come along?" No need to persue top talent when soft tossing, projected 5th starters are available in the draft.

 

Lopsided trades are created out of situations such as those facing Minaya. If he's not willing to overpay, he can take his chances elsewhere. This is what I expect from Williams-- not to play patty-cake and help out another national league team, but take more than necessary for his commodities. Commodities which don't have to be moved at this point.

 

In addition to taking a risk with having a starter come back to bite us in possible postseason play, there's a possibility any prospect/BParm received falls apart. We're not completely safe on any deal. If Minaya --or any other general manager-- is willing to overpay and provide a package which is impossible to pass up, I wouldn't blame Williams for taking it.

 

Every trade scenario is obviously different. Minaya may believe with the Marlins rebuilding process moving quicker than expected, and contracts expiring over the next several years for their club, their window is closing. Surrendering a top prospect, even in the presence of the Kazmir fiasco, may be possible in his mind since their payroll will always be high and money will always be available.

 

For our minor league system, I'm under the philosophy you can't find a Liriano when you can't find a Neifi Perez. With these trade discussions, you don't persist for a Milledge, you're not going to get one. Of course it's Minaya's decision whether or not to accept, but if I were Williams, I wouldn't budge one bit from including him. No way in HELL am I trading either Vazquez or Garcia for merely bullpen help or fringe prospects.

Some points here on your post Flash;

 

1 - Tell me where Broadway and McCullough have been projected to be nothing more than 5th starters?

 

2 - How many farm systems have a Garza or Liriano in the minors?

 

3 - If you were Omar Minaya, would you rather give up less for say a Greg Maddux, or give up more including someone from your bullpen for a like Garcia whose velocity is getting worse and his ERA is increasing by the day?

 

4 - How many GM's are willing to overpay nowadays? You saw the lack of activity at the deadline last season. We wanted Ron Villione from the M's, the price? Brandon McCarthy.

 

5 - Minaya would have seen how someone like Jon Lester has come up and had instant success out of the rotation. Would he rather take his chances with him, because he'll be under their control for the next 6 seasons, instead of a veteran like Javy or Freddy?

 

6 - Of course KW shouldn't ask for anything less. He's got to find a GM stupid enough to overpay though. Maybe we should get Wayne Krivsky on the line?

 

7 - Flash you know I like my prospects. I can't stand when people say Gio will be nothing more than a 5th starter, or that Chris Young will never be a good major league hitter because he K's too much etc. That said, our farm system is NOT as bad as you think, just because we don't have that IMPACT prospect. We HAVE developed pitching, we have developed young hitters. Just look at the likes of Jenks, Crede, McCarthy, Cotts etc. Our farm system is in a LOT better state than other contending teams such as the Yanks, Cardinals etc.

[LosMediasBlancas]

After listening to Ozzie and Bill Melton's post game comments, I think neither is going anywhere.

It was a rumor started in NY, just before the Sox got to town. Coincidence or deliberate attempt to distract the team?

[Frankensteiner]

I thought the exact opposite. Oz never said they aren't going anywhere, instead he said, "Right now, those two are part of our team, and thats how we are going to treat it.:

 

If im Freddy or Javy, that doesnt give me that much confidence.

 

I thought his response in the papers was even more interesting... a non-denial denial:

 

Guillen had a team meeting Friday afternoon, focusing primarily on the team raising its level of play to an elite platform in the second half. He also told his charges not to pay attention to rumors in the media, as he will be the one to personally break any sort of trade possibilities.

 

"Right now, there are two players on my team, Vazquez and Freddy, who to this point right now, they are members of the White Sox," Guillen said. "If something happens to my players, they will be the first to know about it. I'm the first one to say, 'Hey, this is what we think we should do or might do.' My players have to prepare themselves right now to defend the White Sox uniform.

 

---------------------

Williams always has been consistent in not talking about trades, especially in the infant stages, showing the utmost respect to the players who are doing the daily job for the organization. In a brief statement to the Chicago media Friday night, Williams made a trade involving a starter sound unlikely but not completely and totally out of the question, if it helped his team get close to the ultimate prize.

 

"People ask me about our starters every day and I say the same thing," Williams said. "I'm not shopping any of them, but make me an offer I can't refuse and one that doesn't weaken my club. Never say never, but I can say not very likely. We are looking to add to our club, not subtract."

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...t=.jsp&c_id=cws

[knightni]

I've seen DBAH0 as a gm.

 

He hoards minor leaguers.

 

[beck72]

After listening to Ozzie and Bill Melton's post game comments, I think neither is going anywhere.

It was a rumor started in NY, just before the Sox got to town. Coincidence or deliberate attempt to distract the team?

 

I agree neither are going anywhere. KW probably put their names out there. But no team will give the Sox their asking price.

[3E8]

Because how many times has it happened, and will these teams like the Mets give up a Mike Pelfrey for a Freddy Garcia, after they've already been burned once from a similar sort of deal before?

It is a different situation if you ask me. Kazmir was considered a better prospect at the time of his trade than Pelfrey is now, and he was two years younger. Freddy Garcia's skills may be deteriorating this year, but he's still no Victor Zambrano. Forty games over .500 in his career and would obviously benefit pitching in Shea having a greater tendancy towards the fly ball. Freddy also has loads of postseason experience while Zambrano obviously had none. Freddy has 9 total postseason starts in his career, and his numbers in those starts are pretty impressive considering that is against top-notch competition. Lastly, the Mets as a team are in a much different situation now than they were two years ago. They are 13 games up and no one else in their division is even that close to .500. Barring a monumental collapse, they will be going to the postseason and to obtain a vet like Garcia will put their very questionable starting rotation in a better state, even though Freddy is having a sub-par season by his standards.

[WCSox]

I agree neither are going anywhere. KW probably put their names out there. But no team will give the Sox their asking price.

 

I agree. There's a lot of talk here about getting rid of Garcia "before the other GMs figure out that he's washed up." Well, hell, if WE know that he's not throwing as hard as he used to, I don't see how other GMs and their scouts aren't aware of it as well. That is their job, after all. If the Sox were to deal Garcia before the deadline, they wouldn't get a ton in return and would likely be eating part of the remainder of his contract.

 

I don't see any of our starters going anywhere this season.

[Balta1701]

Fine, I'm annoyed enough to say it.

 

Think the Mets would do Milledge, Heilman, and Sanchez for Buehrle?

[Kalapse]

Fine, I'm annoyed enough to say it.

 

Think the Mets would do Milledge, Heilman, and Sanchez for Buehrle?

you did not just go there

[Balta1701]

you did not just go there

Yes, I did. Tell 56 to get his damn ERA back below 4. He deserves that one.

[fathom]

Fine, I'm annoyed enough to say it.

 

Think the Mets would do Milledge, Heilman, and Sanchez for Buehrle?

 

Well, if they would do that trade, see ya Mark.

[WCSox]

Well, if they would do that trade, see ya Mark.

 

I can understand people jumping on Garland for his "Judly-like" pitching earlier this year, but I'm shocked that Buehrle is suddenly trade bait after three bad starts. If anybody on this staff deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Mark Buehrle.

[fathom]

I can understand people jumping on Garland for his "Judly-like" pitching earlier this year, but I'm shocked that Buehrle is suddenly trade bait after three bad starts. If anybody on this staff deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Mark Buehrle.

 

I agree, but if he'll net you a package like what he mentioned, you do it in a second. Remember, Buehrle's going to be very expensive soon.

[WCSox]

I agree, but if he'll net you a package like what he mentioned, you do it in a second. Remember, Buehrle's going to be very expensive soon.

 

Also keep in mind that Contreras is going to be very old soon and that Vazquez and Freddy don't look like long-term solutions. And the loss of those three are going to free up over $30 million/year in payroll.

 

Unless some GM lost his mind and offered me a young stud like Kazmir or Harden as part of the deal, there's no way that I'd deal Buehrle this season. Especially not when we're coming off of a championship season and are on pace to win over 100 games halfway through the season. I'd see how he finishes the season and would consider dealing him if his numbers are below his career average next July.

Edited July 15, 2006 by WCSox

[Frankensteiner]

I agree, but if he'll net you a package like what he mentioned, you do it in a second. Remember, Buehrle's going to be very expensive soon.

 

How much more expensive is he going to be? He's not a $15M pitcher. He'll get Tim Hudson money (IIRC, 4yrs/$44M) imo, which isn't all that much more than he's earning now.

 

Anyway, trading Buehrle is just dumb. He may not be a dominating ace like Santana, Liriano, or even Sabathia, but he's very effective, throws innings, and isn't an injury risk.

[WCSox]

How much more expensive is he going to be? He's not a $15M pitcher. He'll get Tim Hudson money (IIRC, 4yrs/$44M) imo, which isn't all that much more than he's earning now.

 

No, he'll get more than that. If Burnett got 5 years/$55 million, Buehrle will get 5 years/$75 million.

 

Anyway, trading Buehrle is just dumb. He may not be a dominating ace like Santana, Liriano, or even Sabathia, but he's very effective, throws innings, and isn't an injury risk.

 

Completely agree, and the fact that he's not in the top tier of pitchers will keep his price down far enough that JR won't shy away from re-signing him.

[Frankensteiner]

Also keep in mind that Contreras is going to be very old soon and that Vazquez and Freddy don't look like long-term solutions. And the loss of those three are going to free up over $30 million/year in payroll.

 

I agree. I'm not all that encouraged by the long-term prospects (past next season) of our pitching staff. McCarthy looks promising but he's still unproven. Take out Buehrle, and we don't have that much left.

[Kalapse]

No, he'll get more than that. If Burnett got 5 years/$55 million, Buehrle will get 5 years/$75 million.

Completely agree, and the fact that he's not in the top tier of pitchers will keep his price down far enough that JR won't shy away from re-signing him.

Woah, lets not get carried away now, Mark Buehrle could make an absolute fortune on the open market simply based on his career record, injury history and reputation but a $15M per pitcher he is not. I see Mark comming away with a 4/$54M or 5/$65M deal at the most.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Kalapse

[Frankensteiner]

No, he'll get more than that. If Burnett got 5 years/$55 million, Buehrle will get 5 years/$75 million.

 

There's no way he gets that much. Market value fluctuates from year to year. If he wants $75 million, then I'm with fathom... trade him.

[gojimthome]

No, he'll get more than that. If Burnett got 5 years/$55 million, Buehrle will get 5 years/$75 million.

 

Not a chance. A young Pedro Martinez he is not.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Contreras' Crew

[Balta1701]

There's no way he gets that much. Market value fluctuates from year to year. If he wants $75 million, then I'm with fathom... trade him.

Mark will get more than Zito will get this offseason. Zito will get in that range. Mark will get in that range also.

[WCSox]

There's no way he gets that much. Market value fluctuates from year to year. If he wants $75 million, then I'm with fathom... trade him.

 

Look at Burnett's stats. His career ERA is 0.10 points higher than Mark's, despite the fact that he pitched exclusively in the NL prior to this season. His career WHIP is also higher. Oh, and Burnett only pitched 200 innings TWICE in his entire freaking career... and he threw his team under the bus... and had Tommy John surgery... yet he still got 5 years/$55 million... from the freaking Blue Jays, of all teams. Given that, I don't think that 5 years/$75 million is a pipe dream for Buehrle. He'll only be 28 after next season and his career numbers blow away Burnett's. I'm not saying that the Sox should re-sign him at that rate, but the market will definitely force his value way above what Burnett got.

Edited July 15, 2006 by WCSox

[Kalapse]

Look at Burnett's stats. His career ERA is 0.10 points higher than Mark's, despite the fact that he pitched exclusively in the NL prior to this season. His career WHIP is also lower. Oh, and Burnett only pitched 200 innings TWICE in his entire freaking career... yet he still got 5 years/$55 million... from the freaking Blue Jays, of all teams. Given that, I don't think that 5 years/$75 million is a pipe dream for Buehrle. He'll only be 28 after next season and his career numbers blow away Burnett's. I'm not saying that the Sox should re-sign him at that rate, but the market will definitely force his value way above what Burnett got.

Burnett got his contract soley based on his upside and pure stuff, the guy throws in the high 90's with a nasty breaking ball when healthy, a guy like that is always going to find a place in baseball. Burnett is a horrible comparison to Buehrle.

 

Burnett has Ace quality stuff, Buehrle does not, it's really as simple as that.