Rules Interpretation Question

[Mplssoxfan]

I know we have a couple of umpires who post here (Rex Hudler and someone in the U of I mob, I think). Not that those are the only guys I'd like to see respond -- I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of Soxtalk. Anyway, this happened in a friend's son's youth league game recently.

 

Pop-up between the plate and the mound. Both the pitcher and catcher try to make a play on the ball and collide just as the catcher gets a mitt on it. The collision is so violent that the catcher's mitt flies off with the ball still in it -- in fact, the ball stays in the mitt as it lies on the ground. The catcher and pitcher are both injured on the play, and the catcher cannot retrieve his mitt.

 

So, what do you think? Safe or out?

[SoxFan76]

I know we have a couple of umpires who post here (Rex Hudler and someone in the U of I mob, I think). Not that those are the only guys I'd like to see respond -- I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of Soxtalk. Anyway, this happened in a friend's son's youth league game recently.

 

Pop-up between the plate and the mound. Both the pitcher and catcher try to make a play on the ball and collide just as the catcher gets a mitt on it. The collision is so violent that the catcher's mitt flies off with the ball still in it -- in fact, the ball stays in the mitt as it lies on the ground. The catcher and pitcher are both injured on the play, and the catcher cannot retrieve his mitt.

 

So, what do you think? Safe or out?

 

If the catcher caught the ball and had posession, and THEN the glove flew off, he's out.

 

(I think)

[GoRowand33]

I umpire youth leagues in my area, so this is pretty interesting

 

they sure don't put something like this in the rulebook lol but heres what I think

 

to have possession of the ball, you have to be able to take it out of your mitt, so since the mitt flew off I would say that he didn't have possession and call the guy safe

[AbeFroman]

I don't mean to change the subject, but I have another scoring question for any umpires out there...

 

I've been thinking about this for a while. How so they score it when a player is ejected for a corked bat. I was in a bar with some idiot cub fans when the Sosa play happened and I asked the question... nobody knew... Is it just the same as a fly ball to the pitcher?

 

Anyone have any ideas?

[Reddy]

I umpire youth leagues in my area, so this is pretty interesting

 

they sure don't put something like this in the rulebook lol but heres what I think

 

to have possession of the ball, you have to be able to take it out of your mitt, so since the mitt flew off I would say that he didn't have possession and call the guy safe

 

thats not true. a batter can be out on a flyout EVEN if the fielder drops the ball in transition from glove to hand. he just needs to have possession IN HIS GLOVE.

 

I umpire as well for my city's babe ruth league and state tourney, i'd call him out. if ANY OTHER PLAYER comes over and picks up the ball out of the mitt it would be an out undoubtably.

[Mplssoxfan]

they sure don't put something like this in the rulebook lol but heres what I think

 

to have possession of the ball, you have to be able to take it out of your mitt, so since the mitt flew off I would say that he didn't have possession and call the guy safe

 

This is what I thought the intrepretation was, but I really wasn't sure.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Mplssoxfan

[Reddy]

This is what I thought the intrepretation was, but I really wasn't sure.

 

read my above post. dropped on the transition people. still counts as an out.

[Rex Hudler]

It's not a catch, plain and simple. I had a similar situation occur when I coached a LL team, but rather than two players colliding, it was a player and a fence. Here is the supporting text from the definition of a catch in Official Baseball Rules:

 

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.

 

Official Baseball Rules 2.00 Definition of Terms

 

In this situation, dropping the ball, regardless of its position in relation to the glove, applies. GoRowand was correct in this case that voluntary and intentional release of the ball from the glove is necessary after such a collision.

 

A perfect example is a few years ago, an MLB outfielder (Pittsburgh, I think) caught a ball on the fly and ran into the wall. After hitting the ground his glove fell off with the ball still in it and laid on the warning track next to him as he lay in pain. His fellow OF came over to see if he was okay ignoring the ball, assuming the catch. The batter circled the bases for an inside-the-park HR. The Pirates (again, I think) made a hell of an argument but lost. The HR rightfully stood.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Rex Hudler

[Reddy]

It's not a catch, plain and simple. I had a similar situation occur when I coached a LL team, but rather than two players colliding, it was a player and a fence. Here is the supporting text from the definition of a catch in Official Baseball Rules:

In this situation, dropping the ball, regardless of its position in relation to the glove, applies. GoRowand was correct in this case that voluntary and intentional release of the ball from the glove is necessary after such a collision.

 

A perfect example is a few years ago, an MLB outfielder (Pittsburgh, I think) caught a ball on the fly and ran into the wall. After hitting the ground his glove fell off with the ball still in it and laid on the warning track next to him as he lay in pain. His fellow OF came over to see if he was okay ignoring the ball, assuming the catch. The batter circled the bases for an inside-the-park HR. The Pirates (again, I think) made a hell of an argument but lost. The HR rightfully stood.

 

ok but what if the other outfielder had simply picked up the ball? a ball in the air that hits off of a glove or another player and is subsequently caught before hitting the ground is an out... so..?

[Rex Hudler]

ok but what if the other outfielder had simply picked up the ball? a ball in the air that hits off of a glove or another player and is subsequently caught before hitting the ground is an out... so..?

 

If the glove is laying on the ground with the ball in it, it is considered dropped. The fact it is still in the glove has no bearing on it if the glove is not still on the player's hand.

 

Now if the OF is laying on the ground with the glove on his hand and the ball in it and another OF takes it out, then you have an out. It is all about control. A glove with a ball in it, not connected to a player is not under the control of any player.

[witesoxfan]

If the glove is laying on the ground with the ball in it, it is considered dropped. The fact it is still in the glove has no bearing on it if the glove is not still on the player's hand.

 

Now if the OF is laying on the ground with the glove on his hand and the ball in it and another OF takes it out, then you have an out. It is all about control. A glove with a ball in it, not connected to a player is not under the control of any player.

 

The best example of this would be a guy throwing his glove in the air and with a hell of a lot of luck catching the ball. Of course instead of an out the batter is granted 3 bases, or something around there.

[Mplssoxfan]

A perfect example is a few years ago, an MLB outfielder (Pittsburgh, I think) caught a ball on the fly and ran into the wall. After hitting the ground his glove fell off with the ball still in it and laid on the warning track next to him as he lay in pain. His fellow OF came over to see if he was okay ignoring the ball, assuming the catch. The batter circled the bases for an inside-the-park HR. The Pirates (again, I think) made a hell of an argument but lost. The HR rightfully stood.

I vaguely remember this play, or one like it. I think the batter was Andre Dawson. This vague memory was my basis for thinking that the correct call was safe.

 

For the record, the batter was ruled out by the umpire in this case. Apparently, he called the batter out and immediately called time to attend to the players writhing on the ground -- and the call had no effect on the eventual outcome of the game, which is nice.

[GoRowand33]

thats not true. a batter can be out on a flyout EVEN if the fielder drops the ball in transition from glove to hand. he just needs to have possession IN HIS GLOVE.

 

I umpire as well for my city's babe ruth league and state tourney, i'd call him out. if ANY OTHER PLAYER comes over and picks up the ball out of the mitt it would be an out undoubtably.

 

I know I already have support for my interpretation but I think what your talking about is situationally

 

for instance if a guy makes a diving catch, writhes in pain for 5 seconds, gets up, takes 2 crow hops (all this with the ball in his mitt) then drops the ball in transition it would be a catch

 

in an instance of the collision, there is no clear way of establishing possession until the fielder can cleanly grab the ball out of the mitt

 

since the mitt is on the ground and not in the possession of any player, you can't call anyone out

[Reddy]

I know I already have support for my interpretation but I think what your talking about is situationally

 

for instance if a guy makes a diving catch, writhes in pain for 5 seconds, gets up, takes 2 crow hops (all this with the ball in his mitt) then drops the ball in transition it would be a catch

 

in an instance of the collision, there is no clear way of establishing possession until the fielder can cleanly grab the ball out of the mitt

 

since the mitt is on the ground and not in the possession of any player, you can't call anyone out

 

yeah i gotcha, you've all convinced me

[YASNY]

I'm no expert of the technicalities of some of the rules of baseball, but I'm inclined to agree with Rex.

[SoxFan76]

The best example of this would be a guy throwing his glove in the air and with a hell of a lot of luck catching the ball. Of course instead of an out the batter is granted 3 bases, or something around there.

 

I did that at first base.

 

They gave him the base.

[Rex Hudler]

I did that at first base.

 

They gave him the base.

 

If it was a throw, he should have gotten two bases. A batted ball, three.