VAfan Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I don't think anyone on here has even a clue of an answer to the question: Why does our starting pitching suck? We can only observe that it does. The better question is: what can be done to improve our starting pitching between now and October? There seem to be three main options: 1. Trade Vazquez or Garcia for a solid bullpen arm (Tom Gordon?) and put McCarthy into the rotation. 2. Have Ozzie pull pitchers early if they don't have it that day. It is actually a way to occasionally rest your starters. This happened yesterday with Buehrle. 3. Do nothing and hope the starters turn it around. Frankly, it is a quandary. The greatest strength of the team has turned into its greatest weakness in just one season. I think I'd be tempted to try to find a way to insert some young blood into the rotation. If McCarthy can outpitch these veterans, maybe they'll suck it up and pitch like they are capable of. Anyone for a 6-man rotation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 (edited) Besides Jose, everyone is pitching below their career avgs. And even Jose has dropped off from what he had been pitching like he was in the 2nd half of 05 and earlier this yr. It's like waiting on proven hitters to break out of their slumps. These guys are all proven, durable SP's. If they aren't injured, it's very reasonable to expect them to pitch better in the 2nd half Here are some pre-2006 career ERA avgs: Javy--4.28 current, 5.07 MB: 3.63, current, 4.43 Jon: 4.42, current, 5.37 Freddy: 3.93, current, 4.91 Edited July 16, 2006 by beck72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:31 AM) Besides Jose, everyone is pitching below their career avgs. And even Jose has dropped off from what he had been pitching like he was in the 2nd half of 05 and earlier this yr. It's like waiting on proven hitters to break out of their slumps. These guys are all proven, durable SP's. If they aren't injured, it's very reasonable to expect them to pitch better in the 2nd half Here are some pre-2006 career ERA avgs: Javy--4.28 current, 5.07 MB: 3.63, current, 4.43 Jon: 4.42, current, 5.37 Freddy: 3.93, current, 4.91 Saying our guys are pitching below their career averages is misleading. With Garcia, his career numbers should be thrown out the window because due to losing his stuff, he's a completely different pitcher than he was in the past. Vazquez is a similar case: he hasn't been very good the past 2 and a half seasons so the career numbers should have less meaning as well. And with Garland, if he returns to his career averages, he's still not very good, and we need him to be very good. But I noticed you didn't give us Jose's numbers. I'm assuming you're putting more weight in Jose recent performances instead of automatically thinking he'll return to career norms. Well, you can't have it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:30 AM) Saying our guys are pitching below their career averages is misleading. With Garcia, his career numbers should be thrown out the window because due to losing his stuff, he's a completely different pitcher than he was in the past. Vazquez is a similar case: he hasn't been very good the past 2 and a half seasons so the career numbers should have less meaning as well. And with Garland, if he returns to his career averages, he's still not very good, and we need him to be very good. But I noticed you didn't give us Jose's numbers. I'm assuming you're putting more weight in Jose recent performances instead of automatically thinking he'll return to career norms. Well, you can't have it both ways. Contreras didn't pitch here for much of his life. His time in New York shouldn't count as a "career norm." His international and Cuban careers count far more, and what he's doing now is more than consistent with his past pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitoMB345 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 In addition to his time with the Cuban national team, Contreras pitched for the Pinar del Río Vegueros of Cuba's Cuban National Series. In his last season in Cuba (2001-2002), he went 13-4 with a 1.76 ERA and 149 strikeouts[1]. Taken from Wikipedia, on Jose's last year with Cuba. Castro gave Contreras the nickname El Titan de Bronze (The Bronzed Titan) [1]. New nickname for Jose? LETS GO EL TITAN! # The start against the Yankees on July 14, 2006 that ended his consecutive win streak at 17 games produced a different piece of baseball history as well. With the help of the long All-Star break, Contreras started two consective regularly-scheduled White Sox games. The last time any pitcher accomplished was in 1976 by Wilbur Wood, also for the White Sox (Freddie Garcia achieved this with the Seattle Mariners in September, 2001, however his feat is given an "asterisk" because there were scheduled games in between that were cancelled immediately following the September 11 attacks). With 5-man rotations and the heavy emphasis on protecting expensive arms, it may be decades if ever before this feat is achieved again. Yay for Wikipedia! I love that site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosox41 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 08:43 AM) Nothing personal, but I'd like to hear Coop and KW's assessments more. Me too. But since they're not posting here, you get me. Bob QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 09:54 AM) I think the problem is the pitchers are being compared to last year, and to last year's playoff run when, in both instances they pitched way better than can be reasonable expected again, at least for an entire season. Buerhle, even with his last 3 bombings, has numbers pretty close to what you could reasonable expect. Garland was a journeyman basically until last year. Freddy was good and bad at Seattle, so its not shocking to see him with an ERA over 4. Contreras has been solid, better than could be expected, and Vazquez has been mediocre for the vast majority of his career. Expections of the pitching staff were way too high. Unreasonably high. The greatest 5 man rotation in history? Please. Its a good thing the offense improved this year. With last years offense and this year's pitching, the Sox probably would be looking at dueling it out with Cleveland for 3rd place. I thought only Garland had a career year last year. Buehrle was like he was normally. Garcia pitched as well as he did in Seattle. Contreras can be called a surprise, but I don't call it a career year for him. Vazquez pitched better in Montreal but has been nothing the last 4 years but expensive. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I'll say one thing...our rotation is vastly over-rated by all of baseball right now and they proved a lot last year, but last year doesn't mean s*** this year. If I'm Kenny, I'm looking to UPGRADE the rotation if at all possible and if that means dealing a guy like Freddy and someone else for another starter than so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 12:36 PM) If I'm Kenny, I'm looking to UPGRADE the rotation if at all possible and if that means dealing a guy like Freddy and someone else for another starter than so be it. As long as that "someone else" isn't McCarthy or Lumsden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg The Bull Luzinski Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Anybody catch the license plate on the bus that just ran this team over. Next stop, six game losing steak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:36 AM) If I'm Kenny, I'm looking to UPGRADE the rotation if at all possible and if that means dealing a guy like Freddy and someone else for another starter than so be it. Given how he's pitched this season and how much money is left on his contract, Freddy isn't going to get the Sox anything of value right now. In fact, the Sox would probably have to eat part of his contract if they dealt him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baines3 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 (edited) If we didn't have Jose, I don't know where we'd be. I would put McCarthay in the starting rotation and put Vazguez in the bull pen. If we don't play better then this, the Tigers will maul us. Edited July 16, 2006 by whitesox1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 04:30 PM) Saying our guys are pitching below their career averages is misleading. With Garcia, his career numbers should be thrown out the window because due to losing his stuff, he's a completely different pitcher than he was in the past. Vazquez is a similar case: he hasn't been very good the past 2 and a half seasons so the career numbers should have less meaning as well. And with Garland, if he returns to his career averages, he's still not very good, and we need him to be very good. But I noticed you didn't give us Jose's numbers. I'm assuming you're putting more weight in Jose recent performances instead of automatically thinking he'll return to career norms. Well, you can't have it both ways. Barring injuries, are there any good reasons why these 4 SP's can't pitch better in the 2nd half of this yr? Even Jose has pitched worse than he did at the end of last yr, beginning of this yr. What's misleading about fully expecting this rotation to pitch better than they have? It's not like the sox rotation is a bunch of old stiffs with arms held together by duct tape. These are the horses [+1] that brought us a world series. Healthy, I'll stick with them. The only way to get better is to sell off our minor league system, which I don't think KW will do or should. Will the sox staff turn it around? I think so. The odds are in favor [yes, career avgs, and recent performances--the last yr or two, do count] If they don't, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(whitesox1976 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 01:22 PM) If we didn't have Jose, I don't know where we'd be. 3rd or 4th place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(whitesox1976 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 01:22 PM) If we didn't have Jose, I don't know where we'd be. I would put McCarthay in the starting rotation and put Vazguez in the bull pen. If we don't play better then this, the Tigers will maul us. Since Vazquez has the mental toughness of a 20-year-old rookie, putting him in the 'pen would be counter-productive at this point. Making B-Mac re-adjust to the rotation is probably not the best idea, either. And it's not like he's pitching lights-out in long relief right now, either. And speaking of the Tigers, some good news for the Sox is that their starting pitching bit it in two of three games against the Royals. They were lucky to win that series. It'd be really nice if the Sox continued to get help from the 2nd-half Kenny Rogers and the '05 incarnations of Robertson and Bonderman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 01:45 AM) Who's arguing? You seem to think that there's no chance that our starters are gonna come around. So why not take yourself out of your misery and stop watching? What I'm saying is that I'm not gonna start arguing with you about me not watching games, etc. and bring this entire thread to crap. You're clearly prodding me, and I'm not going to get into it. So, just forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 FWIW, the Trib had a story on Friday where they interviewed two scouts (anonymously) about the Sox' chances. Overall their outlook was very positive, but when Buehrle's name was mentioned the first thing one scout said was: "Buehrle looks tired." Now whether this is just a dead stretch, dead arm, the result of too many innings pitched or a hangover from going into October last year, I'm no expert. But that jumped right out at me, that the guy was so blunt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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