Hawk and DJ Today

[GoRowand33]

about time someone in the organization outwardly recognizes that our starting pitching is in trouble

[Chisoxfn]

Ya, the warning lights should be on. I'm really hoping Vazquez can turn things around to go with Count and Garland (I hope Garland keeps pitching like he has as of late cause it would be HUGE). That happens and I'll feel a lot better.

[BobDylan]

The worst part is if the Sox want to get anywhere near the 2005 form, they need TWO pitchers to pick up a ton of slack. That means Jav and Jon need to drop down near the 3's in the ERA. And unless they get better in the rotation or improve the pen, I can't see this team making it to the World Series again. I can see them winning a short series, but not best of 7.

[Flash Tizzle]

We're NOT going to win a World Series championship with this rotation performing as it currently stands. No one can stand to convince me "everything is alright," or citing some variation of dark cloud nonsense.

 

Go ahead and bulls*** me about offensive teams in the past such as Boston or New York winning World Series, but we're all aware pitching/defense is our path to success. When one constructs a team around starting pitching, and those starters aren't performing, I believe it's understandable to be concerned.

 

Think about this -- we make the playoffs and have to face New York, or Boston, does anyone feel confident of a starter past Contreras? This s*** needs to turn around quickly.

[elrockinMT]

Garcia with another middle of the rad to poor outing. He gave up another 2 homers, but we had our chances for the offsne to deliver but they failed. The 8th inning Uribe should have been able to put down the bunt and couldn't and a DP ended the inning after we had 2 runners on with no outs. PK did his DP routine in the 9th.

 

I don't know what to make of this starting staff. Garland seems to be gelling now and of course Contrears has been good, but shaky as of late. Buerhle has really been crap the last three games. But he has had bad stretches before and then finds it again. I hope it's soon. Garcia and Vazquez just suck.

[Milkman delivers]

Garcia with another middle of the rad to poor outing. He gave up another 2 homers, but we had our chances for the offsne to deliver but they failed. The 8th inning Uribe should have been able to put down the bunt and couldn't and a DP ended the inning after we had 2 runners on with no outs. PK did his DP routine in the 9th.

 

I don't know what to make of this starting staff. Garland seems to be gelling now and of course Contrears has been good, but shaky as of late. Buerhle has really been crap the last three games. But he has had bad stretches before and then finds it again. I hope it's soon. Garcia and Vazquez just suck.

 

There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that today's outing was piss poor, not "middle of the road" or decent or whatever. He gave up 6 runs in 7 innings. That's s***ty, and that's what we should expect from him every time he takes the mound.

 

And I was very happy to hear Hawk and DJ speak candidly. I couldn't stand hearing them basically lie to us for months trying to make everything concerning the starters seem golden.

[indyman]

Our pitching is a big problem, but it goes deeper than Hawk insisting we have to pitch inside. Everytime a pitcher struggles his answer is to pitch inside. I don't think it's quite that simple.

[gojimthome]

Garcia with another middle of the rad to poor outing.

 

 

His ERA for today's game was 7.71. Nothing middle of the road about that. That's "On your feet for your Kansas City Royyyyaaaallllllssssss!!!!!!" bad right there.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Our pitching is a big problem, but it goes deeper than Hawk insisting we have to pitch inside. Everytime a pitcher struggles his answer is to pitch inside. I don't think it's quite that simple.

 

Nope, but it's a start. When you only have to be concerned with the outer half of the plate, things get a lot easier for hitters. Freddy and especially Mark should have buzzed a hitter or two with a high heater as their 1st pitch.

[greg775]

By no means am I blaming Coop, but isn't it amazing how after last season the Yankees just

had to have Coop. I'm sure nobody is clamoring to steal him away, now.

And I am NOT blaming him. I think he's great.

But when players don't perform, things change in a hurry.

 

Is it just me, or do our starters, with the exception of Jose, not strike anybody out?

Is this a sign of bad things to come?

Why don't we get many K's?

Edited July 17, 2006 by greg775

[ottawa_sox]

By no means am I blaming Coop, but isn't it amazing how after last season the Yankees just

had to have Coop. I'm sure nobody is clamoring to steal him away, now.

And I am NOT blaming him. I think he's great.

But when players don't perform, things change in a hurry.

 

Is it just me, or do our starters, with the exception of Jose, not strike anybody out?

Is this a sign of bad things to come?

Why don't we get many K's?

 

Buehrle and Garland at their best are not strikeout pitchers. This is not a bad thing. Garland should be getting ground balls and Buehrle also should also be getting hitters out with a minimum of pitches. Vasquez has the stuff to get strikeouts. I think his problem is between his ears. He looks to me like he still has good stuff. Garcia is another problem. There is something wrong with him. If he could throw hard consistently, as in the past, he would have by now. I still think Javier could turn it around. I think Garcia should be replaced by McCarthy. The real trick will be for Kenny to get something of value for an ineffectual soft tosser.

[Guest JimH]

By no means am I blaming Coop, but isn't it amazing how after last season the Yankees just

had to have Coop. I'm sure nobody is clamoring to steal him away, now.

And I am NOT blaming him. I think he's great.

But when players don't perform, things change in a hurry.

 

Is it just me, or do our starters, with the exception of Jose, not strike anybody out?

Is this a sign of bad things to come?

Why don't we get many K's?

 

Greg this is a good question, there are several reasons in my opinion -

 

First, the White Sox preach first pitch strike and there are lots of teams who know it. I believe this is a big reason why Buehrle has been getting it handed to him recently. These teams are looking for the first pitch, it's a strike and they are putting the ball in play.

 

Next, Cooper also preaches trying to get ground balls and letting the defense work. Sounds good and usually it is but it sure hasn't worked the last two series.

 

Most notably, none of the White Sox pitchers outside of Contreras (starters) have dominating stuff. They are finess guys, although Vazquez has really good stuff and he's had a few high K games. He, though, has been so busy trying to avoid HR's that he is out thinking himself. To me he is pitching defensively ("I have to to stay away from the HR's") instead of attacking. And this is what Hawk means by pitching inside. You do not have to pitch inside to every hitter but you have to show it, and double up. The White Sox pitchers are very poor at making opponents feel uncomfortable in the batters box. Discomfort by a hitter leads to strikeouts. A confused hitter leads to strikeouts, and a hitter trying to cover both sides of the plate leads to strikeouts.

 

It is not simply dominating stuff that gets K's. Does it help, of course it does. But for finesse guys like Buehrle or Garland or Garcia to get K's, they have to use both sides of the plate. Sox pitchers are not doing that effectively. It is a huge problem. They are way too predictable and their whole game calling strategy needs thorough examination. They do not move the hitters eyes enough, let alone their feet. All of these good hitters are smart and they've adjusted. It's now up to the White Sox pitching staff to adjust.

 

It is not necessarily the speed of the fastball, although a 98 mph heater certainly helps. It's when you use it, where it's located. If you don't have a good fastball, then use it as a "show me" pitch and throw it out of the zone. Use it to move a guy's feet or throw it on the first pitch out of the zone to get them thinking fastball. Or bust it in on their hands, but don't miss out over the plate (see Derek Jeter today).

 

The poster who said it's not as simple as saying "pitch inside more" is right. There's more to it, but the basic premise of pitching inside and the mental havoc it creates on a hitter is something the White Sox staff is lacking at the present time.

 

The Tigers are a great fastball hitting team, as are most in the AL. Either the Sox staff starts to effectively locate the fastball or we will continue to see all these inflated ERA's.

[Gregory Pratt]

Greg this is a good question, there are several reasons in my opinion -

 

First, the White Sox preach first pitch strike and there are lots of teams who know it. I believe this is a big reason why Buehrle has been getting it handed to him recently. These teams are looking for the first pitch, it's a strike and they are putting the ball in play.

 

Next, Cooper also preaches trying to get ground balls and letting the defense work. Sounds good and usually it is but it sure hasn't worked the last two series.

 

Most notably, none of the White Sox pitchers outside of Contreras (starters) have dominating stuff. They are finess guys, although Vazquez has really good stuff and he's had a few high K games. He, though, has been so busy trying to avoid HR's that he is out thinking himself. To me he is pitching defensively ("I have to to stay away from the HR's") instead of attacking. And this is what Hawk means by pitching inside. You do not have to pitch inside to every hitter but you have to show it, and double up. The White Sox pitchers are very poor at making opponents feel uncomfortable in the batters box. Discomfort by a hitter leads to strikeouts. A confused hitter leads to strikeouts, and a hitter trying to cover both sides of the plate leads to strikeouts.

 

It is not simply dominating stuff that gets K's. Does it help, of course it does. But for finesse guys like Buehrle or Garland or Garcia to get K's, they have to use both sides of the plate. Sox pitchers are not doing that effectively. It is a huge problem. They are way too predictable and their whole game calling strategy needs thorough examination. They do not move the hitters eyes enough, let alone their feet. All of these good hitters are smart and they've adjusted. It's now up to the White Sox pitching staff to adjust.

 

It is not necessarily the speed of the fastball, although a 98 mph heater certainly helps. It's when you use it, where it's located. If you don't have a good fastball, then use it as a "show me" pitch and throw it out of the zone. Use it to move a guy's feet or throw it on the first pitch out of the zone to get them thinking fastball. Or bust it in on their hands, but don't miss out over the plate (see Derek Jeter today).

 

The poster who said it's not as simple as saying "pitch inside more" is right. There's more to it, but the basic premise of pitching inside and the mental havoc it creates on a hitter is something the White Sox staff is lacking at the present time.

 

The Tigers are a great fastball hitting team, as are most in the AL. Either the Sox staff starts to effectively locate the fastball or we will continue to see all these inflated ERA's.

 

This is the best analysis I've read in awhile, JimH. Very interesting.

 

But, off-topic of the strikeout and pitching talk: am I the only one who thought it might be the organization's way of showing Freddy up to send him a message, that it's not okay to show others up on the field and he won't like it much, either?

 

I mean, they were showing him up.

[greg775]

That explains a lot to me, jim.

Thanks a lot for the long post. I liked it.

[southsideirish71]

Freddy Garcia was touched up for six runs over seven innings against the Yankees today.

Garcia gave up nine hits, including a pair of homers to Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter. The right-hander has now surrendered 22 long balls on the season, tying him with Rodrigo Lopez for third highest in the AL. He just doesn't have any pitch he can use to get a good hitter out. Unless he regains some velocity, it's hard to see how the White Sox could possibly start him in a playoff game. Jul. 16 - 5:29 pm et

 

Nice tiddy little review of our big game pitcher.

[SoxAce]

We're NOT going to win a World Series championship with this rotation performing as it currently stands. No one can stand to convince me "everything is alright," or citing some variation of dark cloud nonsense.

 

I agree..

[joeynach]

Every ball that got hit by Garcia and Buehrle was up and up and out over the plate. Every pitch is hittable if its left up and out over the plate. Buehrle and Garcia both cant seem to keep the ball down at all. Not to mention Garcia's velocity is noticibly down. MB's velocity is always gonna be where it is but if u watch his last two start his pitches move towards the wheelhouse up over the plate way too much. Same with Garcia. I cant say these have lost it and are done. But for the short term they have lost the ability to pitch like real pitchers, and locate quality pitches on a consistent basis. They need to WORK it out!

[Hangar18]

We're NOT going to win a World Series championship with this rotation performing as it currently stands. No one can stand to convince me "everything is alright," or citing some variation of dark cloud nonsense.

 

Go ahead and bulls*** me about offensive teams in the past such as Boston or New York winning World Series, but we're all aware pitching/defense is our path to success. When one constructs a team around starting pitching, and those starters aren't performing, I believe it's understandable to be concerned.

 

Think about this -- we make the playoffs and have to face New York, or Boston, does anyone feel confident of a starter past Contreras? This s*** needs to turn around quickly.

 

 

Well, the Fluffy Cloud contingent might actually start to see that the clouds arent as white and fluffy as they look. Ive been worried for some time now ........ Last year, we ran away with the division unchecked.

This year, Detroit has been there from Day 1, and now the Twinks are involved with their strong pitching.

The SOX are a good team, no doubt. But unfortuneately, the AL is much tougher and there are slightly better teams than us, and the games we GAVE AWAY early are indeed hurting us now.

[CanOfCorn]

Well, the Fluffy Cloud contingent might actually start to see that the clouds arent as white and fluffy as they look. Ive been worried for some time now ........ Last year, we ran away with the division unchecked.

This year, Detroit has been there from Day 1, and now the Twinks are involved with their strong pitching.

The SOX are a good team, no doubt. But unfortuneately, the AL is much tougher and there are slightly better teams than us, and the games we GAVE AWAY early are indeed hurting us now.

 

Whoa...whoa...whoa...ran away with the division? Isn't this the same White Sox team that blew a 15 game lead in September? This is the same thing to me. The White Sox...as a team...went through a lull last year at the end of the year and it took a collective butt cheek squeezing to get out of it. And I think, with Ozzie as manager and Cooper as pitching coach, they will get this back in gear, whether that means putting MB and FG on the DL just to give them a little rest or if they work it out naturally, it will happen. Maybe not enough to get the division title, but it will get them the WC.

[infohawk]

Vasquez has the stuff to get strikeouts.

I'm no pitching coach, but Vazquez seems to be afraid of the bat and seems to pitch away from contact too much. The only thing that happens is that he runs his pitch count up.