Jon Garland, back to form?

[Rowand44]

I could see the hate since he was a suckfest early on, but really if this year had gone according to plan with the staff, Jon is our 5 starter, or maybe our 4 ahead of Vasquez. He's paid a lot, but it costs a lot of pitching right now, even a good 4 guy like Garland. He's overpaid, but all pitching worth a damn (and some not worth a damn) is. I could see why people were hating on Garland, however most (a few exceptions, like yourself) simply refuse to give him credit, even when he is pitching well.

To be honest, I'm not one of those fans who's freaking out about his contract. I think he'll be worth it(in the current market) when all is set and done. There are also the people who feel we have way to much money spent on our starters and Jon is obviously part of that. For me, Kenny could use all of the teams money on pitching and I'd be perfectly happy. I was just letting you know the reason that I believe Jon has been more hated on than most players by Sox fans, though Freddy does seem to have become the new whipping boy for now.

[Chisoxfn]

He was simply unlucky at the beginning of the season. His BABIP was crazy high, now its starting to go down a bit, as a result so are his H/9 and ERA. Good stretch here Jon.

 

He's not out of the woods yet thouugh. The hits are still going to come, and it'll be tough for him to dominate against lineups such as NY or Boston. His K rates are just to low.

All I can tell you was early in the season he was leaving everything up and thats why the hits were there. But than again I'm about as anti stat as it gets and prefer to watch the games because I think that tells you a lot more about a player.

 

I have no problem with stats being used as some sort of evaluation tool, but you can't find out everything about a guy from the statsheet.

[Rowand44]

He was simply unlucky at the beginning of the season. His BABIP was crazy high, now its starting to go down a bit, as a result so are his H/9 and ERA. Good stretch here Jon.

That's because he was getting smoked at the beginning of the season, it wasn't bad luck.

[Chisoxfn]

To be honest, I'm not one of those fans who's freaking out about his contract. I think he'll be worth it(in the current market) when all is set and done. There are also the people who feel we have way to much money spent on our starters and Jon is obviously part of that. For me, Kenny could use all of the teams money on pitching and I'd be perfectly happy. I was just letting you know the reason that I believe Jon has been more hated on than most players by Sox fans, though Freddy does seem to have become the new whipping boy for now.

The big thing I like about Jon is that he's big, he's strong, he throws innings and he seems to for the most part be pretty confident and calm on the mound. I don't see him putting much stress on his arm and I think we got him for a good value (especially compared to what I think he'd have gotten on the open market).

 

But I'm bias as he's one of my favorite Sox players.

 

That's because he was getting smoked at the beginning of the season, it wasn't bad luck.

As usual we see things the same way.

[Frankensteiner]

He was simply unlucky at the beginning of the season. His BABIP was crazy high, now its starting to go down a bit, as a result so are his H/9 and ERA. Good stretch here Jon.

 

He's not out of the woods yet thouugh. The hits are still going to come, and it'll be tough for him to dominate against lineups such as NY or Boston. His K rates are just to low.

 

Maybe I'm missing something... but his K rate is pretty much what it was last season. His K/BB ratio is slightly lower than it was in 2005 but still greater than it was in other years.

[SABR Sox]

That's because he was getting smoked at the beginning of the season, it wasn't bad luck.

 

No, there were a lot of balls "finding those holes too."

 

Not that he wasn't getting smoked, but he was getting "too smoked" if you know what I mean. Certianly more "smoked" than he should have been lol. Not saying he wasn't bad, but he was indeed unlucky too, a combination of both.

 

All I can tell you was early in the season he was leaving everything up and thats why the hits were there. But than again I'm about as anti stat as it gets and prefer to watch the games because I think that tells you a lot more about a player.

 

And thats fine. I don't need another one of these arguments. But yea, everything is down now too, and as a result, his GB% (groundball %) has gone thru the roof. Another good sign.

[Chisoxfn]

No, there were a lot of balls "finding those holes too."

 

Not that he wasn't getting smoked, but he was getting "too smoked" if you know what I mean. Certianly more "smoked" than he should have been lol. Not saying he wasn't bad, but he was indeed unlucky too, a combination of both.

 

 

 

And thats fine. I don't need another one of these arguments. But yea, everything is down now too, and as a result, his GB% (groundball %) has gone thru the roof. Another good sign.

I understand the luck charm but I think in general that gets evened out over teh course of a season. Some games some bleeders fall, ohter games some frozen ropes find the mitts.

 

And trust me, I'm not about to go heavy into this. I respect the Sabr methods. I may not agree with them but I respect that train of thought and its obviously worked semi sucessfully in Oakland.

[SABR Sox]

Maybe I'm missing something... but his K rate is pretty much what it was last season. His K/BB ratio is slightly lower than it was in 2005 but still greater than it was in other years.

 

Yea, and thats just something we have to live with. He's not going to strike people out.

 

 

At the same time, its a downfall in a way. Striking out people is a really good quality, and he doesn't have it. It was part of the problem for him a while ago, and it still is to an extent. When you pitch for contact, good things can happen, but it also opens the door for a lot of mishaps.

 

His control is still great, and he kind of "makes up" for his low K rates with it. But his lack, and I mean lack, of ability to strike people out isn't something good, and it migt catch up to him, if he doesn't get the big outs when he needs to, like in 2005.

 

I understand the luck charm but I think in general that gets evened out over teh course of a season. Some games some bleeders fall, ohter games some frozen ropes find the mitts.

 

And trust me, I'm not about to go heavy into this. I respect the Sabr methods. I may not agree with them but I respect that train of thought and its obviously worked semi sucessfully in Oakland.

 

I think its worked pretty damn well in Boston and NY too.

[Chisoxfn]

Yea, and thats just something we have to live with. He's not going to strike people out.

At the same time, its a downfall in a way. Striking out people is a really good quality, and he doesn't have it. It was part of the problem for him a while ago, and it still is to an extent. When you pitch for contact, good things can happen, but it also opens the door for a lot of mishaps.

 

His control is still great, and he kind of "makes up" for his low K rates with it. But his lack, and I mean lack, of ability to strike people out isn't something good, and it migt catch up to him, if he doesn't get the big outs when he needs to, like in 2005.

I think its worked pretty damn well in Boston and NY too.

Boston doesn't seem to use it as much and I wasn't aware of the Yanks using it. But ya, Depodesta used it sucessfully, but it doesn't hurt when you have Ortiz and Manny in the middle of that lineup and at the time a pair of aces like Schilling and Pedro.

[Rowand44]

Boston doesn't seem to use it as much and I wasn't aware of the Yanks using it. But ya, Depodesta used it sucessfully, but it doesn't hurt when you have Ortiz and Manny in the middle of that lineup and at the time a pair of aces like Schilling and Pedro.

Depodesta huh? I can argue this stuff all night but I'll agree with Sabr and just let it be because I've had these arguments way too often.

[SABR Sox]

Boston doesn't seem to use it as much and I wasn't aware of the Yanks using it. But ya, Depodesta used it sucessfully, but it doesn't hurt when you have Ortiz and Manny in the middle of that lineup and at the time a pair of aces like Schilling and Pedro.

 

Epstien and his enitre organization, from Henry, to James to McCraken are really into it. Not that thats all they abide by, to run a good baseball team you need both a good scouting organization and advice from statheads, but they definately are saber geeks.

 

It doesn't take a saber nut to realize Ortiz, Manny, Schill and Pedro are good pitchers though, thats for sure.

[Chisoxfn]

Depodesta huh? I can argue this stuff all night but I'll agree with Sabr and just let it be because I've had these arguments way too often.

Wow...I'm tired. I was thinking of the Dodgers as the team that failed with it at the same time I was writing about Epstein.

[Whitewashed in '05]

I am a big Garland supporter and I am very very pleased with his last few starts. I knew he could turn it around. While he did piss me off the first few months, this is the time we need him to keep doing what he's doing and hopefully everyone else copies his success. Even Contreras because he hasn't been the same guy since he came off the DL. Not that I expected him to keep tossing dominant games, but he has lately disapointed me.

[whitesoxin']

9-3. Damn he's a lucky man to only have 3 losses.

 

Vazquez and Garland are 18-7 and I've been defending them all year.

[RockRaines]

Look at all the f***ing supporters. Someone please bump the I hate Garland threads.

[chitownsportsfan]

Look at all the f***ing supporters. Someone please bump the I hate Garland threads.

 

Jon Garland is the new Bill Clinton.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Look at all the f***ing supporters. Someone please bump the I hate Garland threads.

 

 

No need to bump any threads for anyone to know I ripped Garland a new one all the time early on. Im just glad he seems to be getting his act together and returning to his 2005 self again.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Jon Garland is the new Bill Clinton.

Tell me about it. I'm Linda Tripp.

[Balta1701]

Jon Garland is the new Bill Clinton.

Dude, Garland just got married. Either you're insulting his wife, or the person he's cheating on his wife with, but either way, ick!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Look at all the f***ing supporters. Someone please bump the I hate Garland threads.

 

Rock, you should be aware of how this board works by now.

[Kalapse]

Rock, you should be aware of how this board works by now.

Yeah, people rightfully criticise players when they're sucking then when they finally turn it around (hopefully) they let up and start to rightfully praise them. It's not like people call for his head then when he stops sucking act like they didn't.

 

Yeah, I ripped Garland at the beginning as did a bunch of other people, now he's pitching well and I'm glad, he deserves praise for that which his getting from me. I'm not just going to hate on the guy for when he's going good because I hated on him when he was sucking.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, people rightfully criticise players when they're sucking then when they finally turn it around (hopefully) they let up and start to rightfully praise them. It's not like people call for his head then when he stops sucking act like they didn't.

 

Yeah, I ripped Garland at the beginning as did a bunch of other people, now he's pitching well and I'm glad, he deserves praise for that which his getting from me. I'm not just going to hate on the guy for when he's going good because I hated on him when he was sucking.

I think the specific people who might have some concern are the people who were saying Garland would never return to form, that the first part of 05 was a total fluke, and that he was never going to be worth the contract we signed him to. There were plenty of those people.

[Kalapse]

I think the specific people who might have some concern are the people who were saying Garland would never return to form, that the first part of 05 was a total fluke, and that he was never going to be worth the contract we signed him to. There were plenty of those people.

Now if that's what he's talking about then yeah, I can maybe understand. Though he's not going to be matching last years numbers again this year so they're going to have to wait atleast until '07 for Garland to prove last year was not a fluke. And just for the record I'm not one of those people who called last year a fluke.

[whitesoxfan101]

First of all, I kept quiet of Jon even during the bad times, actually showing restraint, which I never do for the most part.

 

Second, I'm not NEARLY as pissed at Freddy as I am Vasquez. Freddy simply has nothing in terms of stuff these days, if you gave Freddy the stuff Vasquez has, the dude would still be a stud pitcher. It's just hard to throw an 87 fastball without pinpoint control and fool anybody.

[SoxFan1]

Guys, we can end this thread right now. It's my sig...