VAfan Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Because this topic goes beyond tonight's game, I'm posting it as a general thread. Tonight was a perfect example of stubborn Ozzie trying to get more out of his starting pitcher than was possible if we were going to win the ballgame. They put up a very telling stat on ESPN. Hitters are only .228 against Vazquez the first two times through the lineup. They are hitting .361 the third time through. Tonight, the Tigers got all 5 runs the third time through. The strategy to win the ballgame would be to have someone up -- Tracey or McCarthy -- to come in for Vazquez as soon as he starts running into trouble after the 5th inning, or after we reach that critical third time through the lineup. Tonight, he should have been yanked after the first two guys reached in the 6th. Why do we have a long man like McCarthy if we aren't going to use him? He faced two batters. He could have been brought in to start the 6th inning, frankly, and we would have been in a much better place to win the game 2-0. Of course, part of the fault has to go to AJ Pierzynski or whomever called for Vazquez to throw whatever that slow gopher pitch was that Monroe hit for the slam. Every time he threw that pitch tonight, someone hit it hard. It never should have been called, especially not with the bases loaded and a 1-run lead. We have a good bullpen, Ozzie, and some shakey starters. You need to readjust your philosophy to nurse the confidence of the starters back to where it should be. Leaving them in to get beat, IMHO, is not the best choice, especially for a mental midget like Vazquez. Last year, the starters were great, and by going long, they made the bullpen even stronger. This year, the bullpen should be used earlier to rest and rehabilitate the starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I think with how we pay our starters they should be expected to go 6 innings... I blame this on Vazquez not Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojimthome Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 So...You want Vaz to pitch only 4 or 5 innings each outing? NO. Next, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Contreras @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:38 PM) So...You want Vaz to pitch only 4 or 5 innings each outing? NO. Next, please. Not each outing. But in situations such as tonight McCarthy was available to pitch several innings. Obviously, if McCarthy were to appear consecutive games within a short period the option may not be available. Tonight it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitoMB345 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I want Javy to never pitch in a Sox uni again. Is that too much to ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I'd rather he spent his time and energy on overcomming his fear of seeing Mackowiak on the bench everyday or maybe he just enjoys the company of Brian Anderson when all his other starters are out playing defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 If Vasquez is not traded, we will not make the playoffs, period. You can't have a guy with no balls pitching 1/5 of the games and expect to go anywhere. He's a waste and must go, even if we get nothing back. B-Mac to the rotation, Vasquez to somewhere other than here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:48 PM) If Vasquez is not traded, we will not make the playoffs, period. You can't have a guy with no balls pitching 1/5 of the games and expect to go anywhere. He's a waste and must go, even if we get nothing back. B-Mac to the rotation, Vasquez to somewhere other than here. And then we have no righty setup man unless you trust Riske to fill the role which he's failed at in recent years your pen will go to s***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 How about Vazquez just earn his salary and get a big out or two? I'm the first to jump on Ozzie's case about something (STOP PUTTING MACKOWIAK IN CF), but this wasn't his fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:49 PM) And then we have no righty setup man unless you trust Riske to fill the role which he's failed at in recent years your pen will go to s***. Our pen isn't 1/10th the issue our rotation is right now. How many leads has our pen had to blow? Not many, since the starters (especially Javy) get f***ed up. Javy has to go, and I don't GAF if it hurts the bullpen. Maybe if our starters would go 6 or 7 and only give up 2 or 3 runs, the pen wouldn't be exposed so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:51 PM) Our pen isn't 1/10th the issue our rotation is right now. How many leads has our pen had to blow? Not many, since the starters (especially Javy) get f***ed up. Javy has to go, and I don't GAF if it hurts the bullpen. Maybe if our starters would go 6 or 7 and only give up 2 or 3 runs, the pen wouldn't be exposed so much. The pen would be a major issue if your "scenerio" actually took place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 01:51 AM) Our pen isn't 1/10th the issue our rotation is right now. How many leads has our pen had to blow? Not many, since the starters (especially Javy) get f***ed up. Javy has to go, and I don't GAF if it hurts the bullpen. Maybe if our starters would go 6 or 7 and only give up 2 or 3 runs, the pen wouldn't be exposed so much. I can't believe the amount of s*** our bullpen is giving now. For the last month or so, they've been excellent. I wish Ozzie had as much confidence in them as he does the starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:52 PM) I can't believe the amount of s*** our bullpen is giving now. For the last month or so, they've been excellent. I wish Ozzie had as much confidence in them as he does the starters. Who's complaining about the bullpen? from what I've seen people have been praising the pen of late and rightfully so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:52 PM) The pen would be a major issue if your "scenerio" actually took place. Well what do you suggest? Leave the rotation as it is, have it be bad, AND expose the underbelly of the pen...or get rid of our worst starter Vasquez, put B-Mac in the rotation, and see how using Thornton, Cotts, Jenks, and Riske in the big spots works. Something with the pitching rotation has to change, or we WILL NOT make the playoffs. Javy is a inconsistent loser and he's shown it his whole career. He has to go, at least with Freddy he's been successful in the past, Javy has always been a .500 pitcher and always will be. And that B-Mac guy is pretty good when he starts. Plus, who's to say we can't get a decent arm for the pen for Vasquez? I think we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 01:54 AM) Who's complaining about the bullpen? from what I've seen people have been praising the pen of late and rightfully so. Every trade scenario people suggest, it always includes things about how bad our bullpen is, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:55 PM) Every trade scenario people suggest, it always includes things about how bad our bullpen is, etc. Everybody thinks we need bullpen help and a CF, it's a fun myth, just like Ozzieball was a fun myth last year. This team's sole problem is starting pitching, and is why I'm so insistent on Javy having to go, since he is the weakest link with a long history of being a mental midget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I don't think we'll make the playoffs with both Garcia and Vazquez in the rotation. We're seeing what happens when our offense stops bailing us out, which I think we'll start seeing more frequently in the 2nd half. Contreras has to be automatic, and he hasn't been since April. Buehrle has to return to form, we'll see if that happens. Garland has to stay at the same level he's been over the last month... I'm not holding my breath there. Really, KW either has to force McCarthy into this rotation, or move either starter for some spare parts. We can't win with both these goofs pitching 2 of every 5 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:55 PM) Every trade scenario people suggest, it always includes things about how bad our bullpen is, etc. Most trade scenerios have us upgrading the pen with the addition of a middle reliever while at the same time upgrading the rotation with the addition of McCarthy. If you remove BMac from the bullpen it immediately goes to s***, so if you're not replacing Brandon with someone atleast equal to him then you can't put him the the rotation. QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:56 PM) Everybody thinks we need bullpen help and a CF, it's a fun myth, just like Ozzieball was a fun myth last year. This team's sole problem is starting pitching, and is why I'm so insistent on Javy having to go, since he is the weakest link with a long history of being a mental midget. Who exactly is everybody? Maybe I'm just missing something here but I havn't seen anything of late ripping the pen's performance outside of Clifford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 06:56 PM) Everybody thinks we need bullpen help and a CF, it's a fun myth, just like Ozzieball was a fun myth last year. This team's sole problem is starting pitching, and is why I'm so insistent on Javy having to go, since he is the weakest link with a long history of being a mental midget. Bullpen help allows us to move BMac into the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Ozzie needs to stop with the matchups based on what hand god has blessed a certain batter with. Time and Time again Mackowiaks poor reads and jumps have let ball after ball drop in front of him. And the stellar offense that we got out of Mack tonight, one infield single. Thank you very much. Play BA or if you dont trust him, trade for a CF. Having a corner outfielder in centerfield has cost us time and time again. Yet we keep seeing the same thing over and over like a bad movie. Vazquez needs a shrink. He hangs pitch after pitch and he keeps shaking off AJ on 2 strike counts. He is so desperate to throw his hanging breaking pitches he cannot contain himself. Everyone knew that he was going to implode on a grand scale. Put bmac in the rotation, even at his worst he has a bigger sack than no balls. Now tomorrow I dont want to see Widger. AJ is coming off of the allstar break and is rested. If we put Widger in, we are basically messing up. Ozzie has got to stop with the Tuscon tryout lineups. Play the f***ing real team against teams in first place, stop with the I will sub this guy and that guy to get a rest. Rest these guys against hte Royals not against the Tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Losing B-Mac from the pen isn't nearly the disaster people think. He's been decent, but an ERA in the 4's all year out of the pen isn't irreplaceable. The big difference in this pen from last year is still losing the amazing production we got from Cliff and from Dustin for the first 3 months plus, and those 2 things can't be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:55 PM) Well what do you suggest? Leave the rotation as it is, have it be bad, AND expose the underbelly of the pen...or get rid of our worst starter Vasquez, put B-Mac in the rotation, and see how using Thornton, Cotts, Jenks, and Riske in the big spots works. Something with the pitching rotation has to change, or we WILL NOT make the playoffs. Javy is a inconsistent loser and he's shown it his whole career. He has to go, at least with Freddy he's been successful in the past, Javy has always been a .500 pitcher and always will be. And that B-Mac guy is pretty good when he starts. Plus, who's to say we can't get a decent arm for the pen for Vasquez? I think we can. You suggested trading him for nothing, that's what I'm shooting down here. If you're going to trade Vazquez it has to be for a solid bullpen arm who can pitch the 8th inning for you with his right arm. QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:00 PM) Losing B-Mac from the pen isn't nearly the disaster people think. He's been decent, but an ERA in the 4's all year out of the pen isn't irreplaceable. The big difference in this pen from last year is still losing the amazing production we got from Cliff and from Dustin for the first 3 months plus, and those 2 things can't be replaced. Well, I personally think he's been pitching much better than his ERA suggests over the past month but whatever. I guess you'd be happy with Riske or Tracey pitching the 8th every night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:59 PM) Who exactly is everybody? Maybe I'm just missing something here but I havn't seen anything of late ripping the pen's performance outside of Clifford. 90 percent of Sox fans, congrats on not being dumb if your in the 10 percent that realizes this team's sole problem is the terrible starting pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 can we get the rally seizure in the rotation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:02 PM) 90 percent of Sox fans, congrats on not being dumb if your in the 10 percent that realizes this team's sole problem is the terrible starting pitching. Yep, seems like you have a good amount of evidence to back this claim up too. From what I've seen from people who I consider Sox fans, they're worried about the starting pitching more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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