southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:04 PM) Yep, seems like you have a good amount of evidence to back this claim up too. From what I've seen from people who I consider Sox fans, they're worried about the starting pitching more than anything. Our biggest problem is starting pitching. Raise your hand, when Mack let the ball drop in center did you think that Javier was going to go Hiroshima on us. If you dont have your hand up, then didnt watch the game, have blind faith based on nothing in his past, or were drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:02 PM) You suggested trading him for nothing, that's what I'm shooting down here. If you're going to trade Vazquez it has to be for a solid bullpen arm who can pitch the 8th inning for you with his right arm. Well, I personally think he's been pitching much better than his ERA suggests over the past month but whatever. I guess you'd be happy with Riske or Tracey pitching the 8th every night. Realistically, you could get a good setup man for Vasquez, the suggestion of for nothing is due to my anger at him. If your pen is Cotts, Thornton, Jenks, Riske, (insert return man in trade here), and Tracey, your pen is still pretty damn good. And righties only hit .213 against Thornton (who has a respectable 1.21 WHIP), you could freaking use him as a setup man (or somebody you get in a trade) and Cotts as the LOOGY if you had to. I'd rather see that and B-Mac in Javy's rotation spot. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:04 PM) Yep, seems like you have a good amount of evidence to back this claim up too. From what I've seen from people who I consider Sox fans, they're worried about the starting pitching more than anything. Well most Sox fans I've seen are just plain freaking out about everything right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:05 PM) Our biggest problem is starting pitching. Raise your hand, when Mack let the ball drop in center did you think that Javier was going to go Hiroshima on us. If you dont have your hand up, then didnt watch the game, have blind faith based on nothing in his past, or were drinking. I thought that right after the infield single to Polanco, actually. You could also see some frustration after the line drive single by Rodriguez. I knew things were bad then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wasn't the point of having 6 starters to have BMac ready because KW anticipated his other 5 were going to need a break? From what I have seen, they almost all need a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrain081 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 six man rotation if we get bullpen help??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 this is a ring of bad luck IMO for vazquez...he hangs a breaker to monroe and its hit out...two batters later, he does it again to inge and its popped up...sabremetrically, vazquez actually has the best peripherals of any starter on our staff...a good indication that 1.) he will get better, and 2.) hes been rather unlucky...lots of hits, but still high K-rate, low BB, and after tonights slam 11 homers is actually pretty damn good at this point of the season, especially considering that the knock on him was the homers he has given up...that said, javy needs to trust his fastball more...he tied hitters up and had them swinging and missing at his fastball all night.... of the 7 Hits... pudge: hanging curveabsolutely scalded pudge: ditto monroe: ditto ordonez: bleeder on a nice fastball on the outside part of the plate polanco: IF hit on a fastball he got jammed on guillen: sawed off for a bloop single with the fastball... Javy has 3 decent pitches, fastball, slider and change....all he has to do is flash teh curve once in a while in the dirt to show the hitters he has it, and to give them a change of pace...if he locates it better hell be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:11 PM) Wasn't the point of having 6 starters to have BMac ready because KW anticipated his other 5 were going to need a break? From what I have seen, they almost all need a break. When McCarthy marries Ozzie's niece, or relocates to Puerto Rico and goes golfing with Ozzie, then he'll be able to crack the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:14 PM) this is a ring of bad luck IMO for vazquez...he hangs a breaker to monroe and its hit out...two batters later, he does it again to inge and its popped up...sabremetrically, vazquez actually has the best peripherals of any starter on our staff... Maybe Billy Beane can fix his brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Rongey is now doing his best Ozzie apologist impersonation. A caller asks why Mackowiak was in CF because its a big field. Then Rongey starts going....right hander pitching, right hander pitching. Is this a platoon we have, I thought we had a starting CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:14 PM) this is a ring of bad luck IMO for vazquez...he hangs a breaker to monroe and its hit out...two batters later, he does it again to inge and its popped up...sabremetrically, vazquez actually has the best peripherals of any starter on our staff...a good indication that 1.) he will get better, and 2.) hes been rather unlucky...lots of hits, but still high K-rate, low BB, and after tonights slam 11 homers is actually pretty damn good at this point of the season, especially considering that the knock on him was the homers he has given up...that said, javy needs to trust his fastball more...he tied hitters up and had them swinging and missing at his fastball all night.... of the 7 Hits... pudge: hanging curveabsolutely scalded pudge: ditto monroe: ditto ordonez: bleeder on a nice fastball on the outside part of the plate polanco: IF hit on a fastball he got jammed on guillen: sawed off for a bloop single with the fastball... Javy has 3 decent pitches, fastball, slider and change....all he has to do is flash teh curve once in a while in the dirt to show the hitters he has it, and to give them a change of pace...if he locates it better hell be fine They've been saying that ever since he left Montreal 2 1/2 years and 3 teams ago. He is an average pitcher. His stuff is better than that but it hasn't translated to wins, and chances are it never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:16 PM) They've been saying that ever since he left Montreal 2 1/2 years and 3 teams ago. He is an average pitcher. His stuff is better than that but it hasn't translated to wins, and chances are it never will. i would agree with you, except the fact that his HR #s are profoundly down, which was the knock on him coming into this year...its amazing to me his inability to put hitters away consistently when hes up in the count...something tells me hes making good enough pitches in the hitters counts, but for some reason hes getting beat in pitchers counts...i think hes to blame for some of it, but personally i think some of it for vazquez has been plain bad luck....i know ill get ripped for saying that, but thats what i think....now a guy like freddy is a whole different story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:20 PM) i would agree with you, except the fact that his HR #s are profoundly down, which was the knock on him coming into this year...its amazing to me his inability to put hitters away consistently when hes up in the count...something tells me hes making good enough pitches in the hitters counts, but for some reason hes getting beat in pitchers counts...i think hes to blame for some of it, but personally i think some of it for vazquez has been plain bad luck....i know ill get ripped for saying that, but thats what i think....now a guy like freddy is a whole different story That's the scary thing. His HR allowed numbers are way down, and his ERA stands at 5.20. A guy with his kind of stuff should not have more hits allowed than innings pitched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonderman38 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I don't think you can blame Ozzie for tonight. Javy had been absolutely dominating the Tigers all night, and it was only the 6th inning. It seems that Javy just implodes when he is in his big jams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:14 PM) Javy has 3 decent pitches, fastball, slider and change....all he has to do is flash teh curve once in a while in the dirt to show the hitters he has it, and to give them a change of pace...if he locates it better hell be fine Vazquez can't consistently locate either his slider or change. Only observable difference with your idea would be hanging sliders hit around the ballpark in place of rolling curveballs. Edited July 20, 2006 by Flash Tizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:20 PM) i would agree with you, except the fact that his HR #s are profoundly down, which was the knock on him coming into this year...its amazing to me his inability to put hitters away consistently when hes up in the count...something tells me hes making good enough pitches in the hitters counts, but for some reason hes getting beat in pitchers counts...i think hes to blame for some of it, but personally i think some of it for vazquez has been plain bad luck....i know ill get ripped for saying that, but thats what i think....now a guy like freddy is a whole different story The only bad luck is the fact that he cant get enough spin on his breaking pitches and leaves them either floating or hanging. The other bad luck is the fact that he folds like a deck of cards when one little thing goes his way. Thats a pitcher I want on the mound in the playoffs. Bmac needs to get into the rotation. Last year he has a 1.59 ERA down the stretch. If Vaz had 1/4 of Bmacs stones he would be a 20 game winner. Baseball is filled with guys with great stuff, and a 10 cent head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Bonderman38 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:23 PM) I don't think you can blame Ozzie for tonight. Javy had been absolutely dominating the Tigers all night, and it was only the 6th inning. It seems that Javy just implodes when he is in his big jams. Ozzie is to blame for something else tonight, not the pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 (edited) Either start McCarthy and put Vazquez in the bullpen where he belongs, or trade Vazquez and Mackowiak for Howry & Pierre, Gordon & Rowand, Etc. Vazquez does well the first couple of times through the llineup, so use him in relief. McCarthy is our starter of the future anyway, and he can't do any worse than Vazquez right now. I have nothing against Mackowiak, but it seems as long as he's around Ozzie is going to continue to stick him in CF. He doesn't belong there. Edited July 20, 2006 by South Side Fireworks Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:16 PM) Rongey is now doing his best Ozzie apologist impersonation. A caller asks why Mackowiak was in CF because its a big field. Then Rongey starts going....right hander pitching, right hander pitching. Is this a platoon we have, I thought we had a starting CF. He's also under the impression Anderson wouldn't have caught the 6th inning blooper Mackowiak missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Bonderman38 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:23 PM) I don't think you can blame Ozzie for tonight. Javy had been absolutely dominating the Tigers all night, and it was only the 6th inning. It seems that Javy just implodes when he is in his big jams. Thats why we can blame Ozzie. There is a track record here. This is not the first time the third time through the lineup he gets rocked. Ozzie needs to stop with his bravado and his my pitcher needs to go x innings. If a guy detonates like clockwork after the 5th inning. have the bullpen up and ready to go the minute the first pitch of the 5th inning is thrown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 At this point in time I think you can narrow down the starting pitching woes to 2 men, Javy and Freddy. Both have 1 major flaw that is the biggest factor in their suckiness. Freddy has his pathetic fastball and no out pitch and Javy has his embarrassing lack of mental fortitude. I really don't know the solution to this, if I had to do something I'd keep Javy simply because he's atleast shown flashes this year and still has his stuff. Freddy on the other hand, I have no use for anymore his lack of velocity has yet to be addressed by anyone within the organization and it pisses me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:25 PM) He's also under the impression Anderson wouldn't have caught the 6th inning blooper Mackowiak missed. Mackowiak just pulled up at the end. I saw him do the same thing in the Boston series that lead to a big inning. Rongey thinks Vazquez pitched well. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:25 PM) He's also under the impression Anderson wouldn't have caught the 6th inning blooper Mackowiak missed. Rongey is beyond pathetic, he is the epitome of what I have come to hate about Sox fans this year. Just remember everything is going to be alright because they are the Sox and everything always turns out alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:29 PM) Rongey is beyond pathetic, he is the epitome of what I have come to hate about Sox fans this year. Just remember everything is going to be alright because they are the Sox and everything always turns out alright. Last year Ozzie kept El Duque in the rotation while bmac backed him up. It took till the sox were just a few games up and the season in doubt for him to put bmac back in the rotation. For whatever reason Ozzie thinks that giving the ball every 5 days to Vaz and Garcia is a good idea. Freddys fastball is still poor, and Vaz has no nuts. His stubborness to make a change when its needed may give us more problems than we think. The twins are almost the same distance to us, as we are to the Tigers. Does Rongey actually watch the whitesox. He is almost confused that people want Vazquez pulled after 6 inning. Rongey "But Vazquez is cruising, why would you take him out" Soxfan "Because he is a mental midget and blows up the minute something small happens, like a bird gets too close to him, someone farts too loud, or a fan stands up behind homeplate." He would of given up 9 runs in the first inning if the guy who was swinging the red shirt was behind home plate tonight. Too much of a distraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 10:26 PM) At this point in time I think you can narrow down the starting pitching woes to 2 men, Javy and Freddy. Both have 1 major flaw that is the biggest factor in their suckiness. Freddy has his pathetic fastball and no out pitch and Javy has his embarrassing lack of mental fortitude. I really don't know the solution to this, if I had to do something I'd keep Javy simply because he's atleast shown flashes this year and still has his stuff. Freddy on the other hand, I have no use for anymore his lack of velocity has yet to be addressed by anyone within the organization and it pisses me off. I don't know how you could exclude Mark from our sp woes. Not that it'll go on forever, but right now he's been the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 He had a 5 run inning , so he didnt pitch well The manager must handle Vasquez as he handled Garland-a 5 inning leash, then out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.