Ozzie needs to adjust his management of pitchers

[EvilJester99]

Javy reminds me a lot of how Freddy was when he first got here...something not go right and it pisses him off then his focus goes to spiff and gets himself killed. He certainly has the stuff to be a big time pitcher but not the mental makeup as of yet....

[fathom]

Javy reminds me a lot of how Freddy was when he first got here...something not go right and it pisses him off then his focus goes to spiff and gets himself killed. He certainly has the stuff to be a big time pitcher but not the mental makeup as of yet....

 

He's the exact replica of the myth known as "Judy Garland".

[greg775]

PS Don't look now, but Minnesota won again. They're 5 games back.

Good point. I don't think anybody is overlooking Minnesota. The Twins are good. So are the Tigers. So are the Sox.

So should be Cleveland.

The Royals are the only schmucks of the division.

[Kalapse]

Good point. I don't think anybody is overlooking Minnesota. The Twins are good. So are the Tigers. So are the Sox.

So should be Cleveland.

The Royals are the only schmucks of the division.

Cleveland blows, you can forget about them. They will not be making any sort of run this year with the current personel they're running out there.

[atrain081]

Cleveland blows, you can forget about them. They will not be making any sort of run this year with the current personel they're running out there.

 

That doesn't mean they can't win a series against us, Detroit, or Minnesota and ruin somebody's season. They're easily the best 4th place team in any division, errrr, maybe the Dodgers...

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Because this topic goes beyond tonight's game, I'm posting it as a general thread.

 

Tonight was a perfect example of stubborn Ozzie trying to get more out of his starting pitcher than was possible if we were going to win the ballgame.

 

They put up a very telling stat on ESPN. Hitters are only .228 against Vazquez the first two times through the lineup. They are hitting .361 the third time through. Tonight, the Tigers got all 5 runs the third time through.

 

The strategy to win the ballgame would be to have someone up -- Tracey or McCarthy -- to come in for Vazquez as soon as he starts running into trouble after the 5th inning, or after we reach that critical third time through the lineup. Tonight, he should have been yanked after the first two guys reached in the 6th. Why do we have a long man like McCarthy if we aren't going to use him? He faced two batters. He could have been brought in to start the 6th inning, frankly, and we would have been in a much better place to win the game 2-0.

 

Of course, part of the fault has to go to AJ Pierzynski or whomever called for Vazquez to throw whatever that slow gopher pitch was that Monroe hit for the slam. Every time he threw that pitch tonight, someone hit it hard. It never should have been called, especially not with the bases loaded and a 1-run lead.

 

We have a good bullpen, Ozzie, and some shakey starters. You need to readjust your philosophy to nurse the confidence of the starters back to where it should be. Leaving them in to get beat, IMHO, is not the best choice, especially for a mental midget like Vazquez. Last year, the starters were great, and by going long, they made the bullpen even stronger. This year, the bullpen should be used earlier to rest and rehabilitate the starters.

 

Javier Vazquez. For Tom Gordon. And nothing more. And we'll pay this joker's salary. And pay Philly $17 million dollars. And wash Pat Gillick's car for 12 years. And we'll do it yesterday. Please.

 

All Vazquez does -- for $9 million a year -- is run up high pitch counts and consistently fail to execute big pitches. This guy is a joke. He's a complete joke. He can't even save our pen because it usually takes him 110 pitches to get through 6 innnings. But here's the thing: there's no surprise in any of this. This is who he is. He's been this guy for about 4 years now. Guess we just suck it up or trick some dumbass to take him off our hands.

 

What a major waste. Hope Arizona enjoys Chris Young.

[Kalapse]

That doesn't mean they can't win a series against us, Detroit, or Minnesota and ruin somebody's season. They're easily the best 4th place team in any division, errrr, maybe the Dodgers...

The Mariners are scarier than the Indians and possibly the Marlins as well, they're young and fiesty and will kick your ass if given the opertunity.

[BHAMBARONS]

What a major waste. Hope Arizona enjoys Chris Young.

 

I think we will. Javy never wanted to pitch for Zona anyways and that was evident by his results.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think we will. Javy never wanted to pitch for Zona anyways and that was evident by his results.

 

Which is why the trade pissed me off when it first happened. Arizona just about had to trade him. Arizona raped us when you consider what we had to give up for a guy they were gonna have to trade regardless.

[CYGarland]

What pitch was Vazquez hanging all night? God dammit. I'm sick of this spiff (spiff), we're paying this assclown 12 million a year (or around there, yanks and dbacks paying for some of his salary?)

 

This guy is absolutly worthless. I know McCarthy will go out there and give us a MUCH better effort than this spiff. I hope Kenny knows this too.

 

We better freaking win tomorrow.

The pitch he kept hanging in the 6th inning was his slider. He pitched GREAT for the 1st 5 innings, but then after Detroit got the 1st 2 runners on in the 6th, the roof caved in.........The main reason Vazquez blows up so quick is because he SUCKS pitching out of the stretch. He threw more pitches down the middle of the plate after those 1st 2 guys reached base in the 6th then he did all game, and I've also noticed that almost everytime he has pitched out of the stretch this year he starts making more mistakes. Now guys will foul them off or swing threw them, but he also starts giving up alot of hits, as evidence tonite.......... Coop needs to either find a way to help him locate better out of the stretch or this reaccuring nightmare will continue the rest of the season.

Edited July 20, 2006 by CYGarland

[RME JICO]

Which is why the trade pissed me off when it first happened. Arizona just about had to trade him. Arizona raped us when you consider what we had to give up for a guy they were gonna have to trade regardless.

..and they took some of the money they the Yanks paid to them for Vazquez. Everytime he goes out there, this trade becomes worse. So in the end, they get rid of an overpaid/overrated pitcher and gain a top prospect in Young, and two relievers in Vizcaino and Julio, and some cash.

 

So if the Sox do trade him, they will never get back what they gave up initially. I guess you win some you lose some, but I would rather cut the losses now and take what you can get.

[RME JICO]

Which is why the trade pissed me off when it first happened. Arizona just about had to trade him. Arizona raped us when you consider what we had to give up for a guy they were gonna have to trade regardless.

..and they took some of the money that the Yanks paid to them for Vazquez. Everytime he goes out there, this trade becomes worse. So in the end, they get rid of an overpaid/overrated pitcher and gain a top prospect in Young, and two relievers in Vizcaino and Julio, and some cash.

 

So if the Sox do trade him, they will never get back what they gave up initially. I guess you win some you lose some, but I would rather cut the losses now and take what you can get.

Edited July 20, 2006 by RME JICO

[Controlled Chaos]

i think javy threw maybe 7 curve balls .....2 hung and were ripped by pudge for a single and a double i think (maybe two singles, cant remember, either way both balls were pounded) 1 was hung and pounded by monroe for the slam...1 inge caught off the end of the bat and popped up...a few others were in the dirt or hit for outs

 

The slam was a hanging slider.

 

The ones to pudge were ridiculous...he had him behind in the count both times 1-2 then 0-2 and he throws him this slow curve. The first one was bad enough and he ripped a double, but the second time was just a f***in dagger. You have him behind in the count with a runner on and you toss him the same pitch he smoked on you before. I think that was a key guy to get in that inning. The other spiff is gonna happen from time to time...mags finds a hole, guillen hits a bloop shot, but when you got a guy 0-2 finish him off. I know Javy is always shooting for the strikeout, but a ground out or popout works just as well. I'd love to know if AJ called that second pitch to pudge.

 

oh and I'm not one to jump on Ozzie, but I would have preferred Anderson in the outfield this whole series.

 

Lets jump back up and get em Jose.

 

 

Can I not say s.h.i.t. anymore? I sure as hell know I didn't type "spiff"

Edited July 20, 2006 by Controlled Chaos

[VAfan]

I still think Ozzie has to take the blame for yesterday's loss.

 

A few weeks back, they were doing an Atlanta game on Sunday Night Baseball, and the announcers interviewed Bobby Cox, one of Ozzie's mentors, on what he was going to do to reverse Atlanta's slide and get them back in the race. His response was telling -- he said his only focus was on winning tonight's game.

 

Well, Ozzie's focus needs to change. He should start thinking about winning tonight's game. He's the one who can observe and MANAGE Javier Vazquez. He's the one who should know that Javy gets lit up the 3rd time through the lineup, or when he's pitching from the stretch, or when he gets above 80 pitches -- whatever. The point is that in a winnable ballgame that means 2 games in the standings, he's got to make the adjustment to give the team the best chance to win the game.

 

It does a great disservice to the entire team to leave one of his starting pitchers out there to fail when the game was eminently winnable 2-0 or 2-1. Did the Tigers do anything against our bullpen? No. And odds are they wouldn't have had the bullpen been utilized.

 

Personally, since Javy had a shutout through 5, I would have let him start the 6th inning. But I would have warmed someone up to start the inning. I would have yanked Javy as soon as he allowed the tying runs to reach base.

 

No one is lining up to trade for Javy Lopez. But it is not as if he can't be of use to us. He pitched 5 shutout innings last night against the Tigers. He had a 2-run lead. Had Ozzie just used the bullpen properly, we likely would have won the game! What's really aggravating is that, whereas last year until McCarthy came up we had NO LONG men in the bullpen, we now have 2 LONG MEN -- McCarthy and Tracey -- yet Ozzie still never uses a long man to win a game by getting the starter out before he either blows a lead or turns a deficit into a rout.

 

There are only a few things a manager does within a game that makes or breaks team success. Deciding when to change pitchers is by far the most important task. Ozzie has to realize he's not working with guys who can go 7-2/3 and battle to keep the lead, or keep the game close until we pull ahead. He's working with guys who are physically or mentally tired and who need help. We have the least utilized bullpen in the majors again. Use it Ozzie.

[WCSox]

Vazquez reminds me of James Baldwin: Four good innings and then... BAM! He spiffs his pants.

 

However, with Freddy getting rocked and not looking like a long-term option, the idea to trade Vazquez right now isn't a good one.

[VAfan]

To put it another way, it is one thing to leave Jose Contreras or Mark Buehrle in a game a little longer because they may be better at getting out of trouble than any long guy you have in the pen, but it is completely another thing to leave a guy like Javy Vazquez in the game when he runs into trouble when his track record is that he always goes from trouble to disaster.

 

Manage the games to win, Ozzie. Especially the 2-game swing games like last night.

 

Practically everyone here wants Ozzie to put McCarthy into the rotation. But Ozzie doesn't seem to trust the guy to throw 2 scoreless innings in the 6th and the 7th. It is quite maddening that McCarthy has so few appearances and innings when we have starters getting shelled regularly and an offense that can come back if we can stay within even a few runs.

 

Plus, it is easier to fix Ozzie's management of the games than it will be for Freddie Garcia to get his velocity back or Javier Vazquez to toughen up when facing adversity in the mid-to-late innings of games.

 

2-3 games, at most, is likely to separate us from making the playoffs or sitting at home in October (unless we see a major turnaround from our starters). Those games will be won or lost based on Ozzie's decision making.