Do 2006 White Sox= 1960 White Sox

[Rishard101]

OK so I was reading a book today on the history of the White Sox and discovered a big similarity between the 2005 White Sox and 1959 White Sox, both teams went to World Series, and then what both these teams did in the following off seasons. In 1959 the White Sox were a team built on pitching, defense, and timely hitting, much like the 2005 White Sox. Between 1959 and 1960 Bill Veck felt that the team needed more power and traded away some of the lesser known position players for some more pop in the lineup, including aquiring Minnie Minoso. The following year the team raised its team batting average by 30 points (.240 to .270) however the team finished ten games out of first.

 

This brings me to my point. The White Sox traded a key position player in Rowand for some more pop in Thome, as well as getting rid of other key parts from last years team like El Duque and Marte. Much like the 1960 team, this team appears better than the year before. However, the added power and other losses have taken away from how this team won last year, smallball.

 

Anyway I'm just commenting on how there are many similarities between the 59-60 Sox and the 05-06 Sox, and I'm hoping history won't repeat itself.

[Gregory Pratt]

Jimminy Jillickers, radioactive man!

 

If you stretch hard enough, you can find several seasons that "parallel" another team's.

 

It's silly to go back and draw parallels like that until after the season is over, IMO, and even then, what the hell's it matter? I mean, I can't imagine that a lot of people in Washington asked, a few years ago, "Did the Seattle Mariners of 116 wins equal the Cubs of that many in 1906?"

 

what's the point?

[Frankensteiner]

OK so I was reading a book today on the history of the White Sox and discovered a big similarity between the 2005 White Sox and 1959 White Sox, both teams went to World Series, and then what both these teams did in the following off seasons. In 1959 the White Sox were a team built on pitching, defense, and timely hitting, much like the 2005 White Sox. Between 1959 and 1960 Bill Veck felt that the team needed more power and traded away some of the lesser known position players for some more pop in the lineup, including aquiring Minnie Minoso. The following year the team raised its team batting average by 30 points (.240 to .270) however the team finished ten games out of first.

 

This brings me to my point. The White Sox traded a key position player in Rowand for some more pop in Thome, as well as getting rid of other key parts from last years team like El Duque and Marte. Much like the 1960 team, this team appears better than the year before. However, the added power and other losses have taken away from how this team won last year, smallball.

 

Anyway I'm just commenting on how there are many similarities between the 59-60 Sox and the 05-06 Sox, and I'm hoping history won't repeat itself.

 

If we still had made no changes to last year's team, we'd probably be playing .500 ball right now. The key difference (or drop-off) between '05 and '06 is the starting pitching, and with last year's lineup, things wouldn't be looking very good.

[Greg Hibbard]

I know who this 2006 White Sox team reminds me of

 

they remind me of the 2006 White Sox.

[Sox Machine]

I know who this 2006 White Sox team reminds me of

 

they remind me of the 2006 White Sox.

 

I don't buy it.

 

Seriously, you can't really build a team on "timely hitting." For the most part, it's either something that happens or doesn't. You can increase your chances of it by piling up as many competent hitters as possible.

 

Would a team with Carl Everett (10-for-65 with RISP this year) instead of Jim Thome produce more runs when we need them? Highly doubtful.

 

Run prevention is a bigger issue -- and here's hoping Anderson's increasing presence can iron out the defensive issues of that equation.

[Hangar18]

If we still had made no changes to last year's team, we'd probably be playing .500 ball right now. The key difference (or drop-off) between '05 and '06 is the starting pitching, and with last year's lineup, things wouldn't be looking very good.

 

 

 

Actually, our bullpen. The one thing that Kenny wishes he could do over, was settle that bullpen.

He traded away our 2 worst BP guys (Marte/Vizcaino) for good bench players, but NEVER replaced the bullpen guys. That, and the other SOX bp guys taking a step backwards has cost us more than you know.

Someone brought up this point on the radio the other day, an older guy called in and made this point,

its interesting to note for sure.

[Guest JimH]

Actually, our bullpen. The one thing that Kenny wishes he could do over, was settle that bullpen.

He traded away our 2 worst BP guys (Marte/Vizcaino) for good bench players, but NEVER replaced the bullpen guys. That, and the other SOX bp guys taking a step backwards has cost us more than you know.

 

I suppose I should just leave this alone but once again my comment is,

 

Say what?

 

Doesn't Riske, in essence, take Vizcaino's place?

 

Doesn't Matt Thornton take Marte's place?

 

Outside of the occassional offensive hiccup that every team has, this team's issue has been the downturn in starting pitching. Pretty cut and dried.

[Hangar18]

Doesn't Riske, in essence, take Vizcaino's place?

 

Doesn't Matt Thornton take Marte's place?

 

No, and No.

[Guest JimH]

No, and No.

 

Nice response, no logical explanation.

 

The problem with this team has been the starting pitching, not the bullpen.

[SoxFan76]

Nice response, no logical explanation.

 

The problem with this team has been the starting pitching, not the bullpen.

 

Riske replaces Cliff

McCarthy replaces Viz

Thornton replaces Marte

 

What some people fail to remember is that the LAST 2 guys in the pen last year actually had some pretty good numbers. Especially Vizcaino. He quietly had himself a pretty good year. Kenny decided to take away pitching to beef up the bench. I just thank the baseball gods that Riske came along. Otherwise the bullpen would look pretty bad.

[Guest JimH]

Riske replaces Cliff

McCarthy replaces Viz

Thornton replaces Marte

 

What some people fail to remember is that the LAST 2 guys in the pen last year actually had some pretty good numbers. Especially Vizcaino. He quietly had himself a pretty good year. Kenny decided to take away pitching to beef up the bench. I just thank the baseball gods that Riske came along. Otherwise the bullpen would look pretty bad.

 

So basically Vizcaino and Marte have been adequately replaced.

 

Starters WHIP:

 

Garland: 1.40

Garcia: 1.39

Buehrle: 1.37

Vazquez: 1.35

Contreras: 1.18

 

Bullpen WHIP:

 

McCarthy: 1.25

Thornton: 1.21

Jenks: 1.15

Cotts: 1.10

Riske: 0.99

 

Looks like a decent bullpen to me. Starting pitching? They can do better, namely the top 4 on that list.

[LVSoxFan]

Actually I enjoyed this post. That is a creepy similarity.

 

Let's hope that history doesn't repeat itself.

[southsideirish71]

As stated numerous times in this thread. The problem for the 2006 Whitesox starts and ends with our starting pitching. The bullpen was in flux for the first month or so of the year. But Kenny has stabilized the pen with Thornton and Riske. Another right handed arm would be nice, if we move Bmac into the rotation. That is about it. Our hitters are going to slump. It happens year in and year out. Our pitching needs to man up, and start to pitch like they are capable of. Garland and Count gave us some nice innings this week. Vazquez and Garcia and Buerhle need to get better results from their starts. I have confidence that Buerhle will return to form. However Garcias velocity issues, and Vazquez tin head still worry me.

 

Our team needs to also play better fundamentals. Getting the bunt down, being selfless with RISP, breaking up the double play, and playing good D. These are the hallmarks of last years team.

 

We will find out what this team is made of over the next few weeks.

[LVSoxFan]

As stated numerous times in this thread. The problem for the 2006 Whitesox starts and ends with our starting pitching. The bullpen was in flux for the first month or so of the year. But Kenny has stabilized the pen with Thornton and Riske. Another right handed arm would be nice, if we move Bmac into the rotation. That is about it. Our hitters are going to slump. It happens year in and year out. Our pitching needs to man up, and start to pitch like they are capable of. Garland and Count gave us some nice innings this week. Vazquez and Garcia and Buerhle need to get better results from their starts. I have confidence that Buerhle will return to form. However Garcias velocity issues, and Vazquez tin head still worry me.

 

Our team needs to also play better fundamentals. Getting the bunt down, being selfless with RISP, breaking up the double play, and playing good D. These are the hallmarks of last years team.

 

We will find out what this team is made of over the next few weeks.

 

 

"Vazquez's tin head." LMAO!

 

[southsideirish71]

"Vazquez's tin head." LMAO!

 

 

 

Its so sad to see players with all the physical talent in the world, and not the mental makeup to take the next step. He has good stuff. He just needs to stop getting goofy, when something doesnt go his way. He shut down the tigers for most of that game, and then a few bloops and he couldnt overcome it.

[LVSoxFan]

Totally agree. The only hope I hold out is that Contreras had the "stuff" 1st half last season but couldn't get it done. Now look at him.

 

I like Javy's pitching; he gets some good movement on that ball. You just want him to get over the damn hump already--ya know?

[Colorado Sox Fan]

Phil Rogers mentioned the 1960 comparison a couple of days ago. The similarity he raised was: "the pitchers who did great in '59—Early Wynn, Bob Shaw—were expected to do the same thing the next year, but they couldn't. They were worn down from the innings, the complete games, it took to win the pennant. It takes a toll the next year."

 

I like the moves that were made in the offseason. Vasquez looked like a good pickup. Thome is a great addition. The bullpen makeover has been a wash. Difference is, last year we ran away from everyone. This year, Tigers and Twins are fighting it out with us.

[southsideirish71]

Totally agree. The only hope I hold out is that Contreras had the "stuff" 1st half last season but couldn't get it done. Now look at him.

 

I like Javy's pitching; he gets some good movement on that ball. You just want him to get over the damn hump already--ya know?

 

 

Remember the problem with Contreras was that he would rely on his forkball too much and wouldnt throw his fastball. Now we have Vaz who has a mid 90s quality moving fastball and he is afraid to throw it in clutch situations. Very similiar. Hopefully the turnaround is the same.

[klaus kinski]

I have thought this all along-having lived thru both teams.

[RME JICO]

OK so I was reading a book today on the history of the White Sox and discovered a big similarity between the 2005 White Sox and 1959 White Sox, both teams went to World Series, and then what both these teams did in the following off seasons. In 1959 the White Sox were a team built on pitching, defense, and timely hitting, much like the 2005 White Sox. Between 1959 and 1960 Bill Veck felt that the team needed more power and traded away some of the lesser known position players for some more pop in the lineup, including aquiring Minnie Minoso. The following year the team raised its team batting average by 30 points (.240 to .270) however the team finished ten games out of first.

 

This brings me to my point. The White Sox traded a key position player in Rowand for some more pop in Thome, as well as getting rid of other key parts from last years team like El Duque and Marte. Much like the 1960 team, this team appears better than the year before. However, the added power and other losses have taken away from how this team won last year, smallball.

 

Anyway I'm just commenting on how there are many similarities between the 59-60 Sox and the 05-06 Sox, and I'm hoping history won't repeat itself.

First the 1959 Sox had a .250 BA not .240, so the rise to .270 was only 20 points. The team ERA also went up 0.31 as well. In 1960 they also had more SBs, more sacrifice hits, and more sacrifice bunts. So the year that has less SBs, and less sacrifices (1959) is considered small ball? Maybe smaller ball.

 

The Sox got Kluszewski in 1959 for the playoff run, so I guess that is like Blum in 2005?

 

I don't see how those years relate other than the Sox went to the WS in both years (59, 05), you could take any year that the Sox did good (1983) and say the following year was like this year.

 

Also, like the others have said, losing Marte, Rowand, and El Duque has not been the problem. The issues have been the starting pitching, Politte, and Widger.

Edited July 21, 2006 by RME JICO

[Colorado Sox Fan]

The 1960 Yankees were 40 games over .500 and won it going away. I think it was more about them then a letdown for the Sox, who finished 20 games over .500 and had a pretty good year.

[Dick Allen]

Pitching is what is costing this team. The starters are no where near where they were last season, and the bullpen while much better lately doesn't have Politte, Hermanson, Cotts, Jenks, Vizcaino, Marte combo of 2005. The bullpen last year was almost automatic. Thornton has been a nice pick up, I think its still questionable if Riske will be able to get tough outs consistently late in a ballgame. McCarthy has had his moments, but last year if it was the 6th inning and the Sox were winning, the game was over. The offense is vastly improved, and guys are ripe to start a little slide in that area. The pitching staff is going to have to lead this team. If it doesn't, we will all be very dissappointed, no matter what the offense does from here on out.

[Chisoxfn]

Phil Rogers mentioned the 1960 comparison a couple of days ago. The similarity he raised was: "the pitchers who did great in '59—Early Wynn, Bob Shaw—were expected to do the same thing the next year, but they couldn't. They were worn down from the innings, the complete games, it took to win the pennant. It takes a toll the next year."

 

I like the moves that were made in the offseason. Vasquez looked like a good pickup. Thome is a great addition. The bullpen makeover has been a wash. Difference is, last year we ran away from everyone. This year, Tigers and Twins are fighting it out with us.

I liked this comparison and I thought it was an interesting read. I also think the posters that mentioned how trading for Thome isn't what caused this (the losses of Marte/Viz/Duque) are not the reason this team isn't in 1st place right now, rather the ineffectiveness of our starters that were so dominant last year is.

 

If we had last years offense with this years pitching staff we'd be horrible and lucky to be at .500.

[Balta1701]

If we had last years offense with this years pitching staff we'd be horrible and lucky to be at .500.

If we had last year's starting pitching and this year's offense...we'd be winning at an .800 clip.

[Chisoxfn]

If we had last year's starting pitching and this year's offense...we'd be winning at an .800 clip.

I'm hoping that this years starting pitching comes out in the 2nd half. I've consistently said that I expect our pitching to really pick things up and I see a pretty hefty streak of winning baseball in our near to immediate future.