Jason Stark on Javier Vazquez/Freddy Garcia

[JoeBatterz]

On his top 8 players to be moved prior to July 31st, Javier and Freddy came in at 7th.

 

White Sox GM Kenny Williams keeps downplaying the idea that he would trade any of his starting pitchers. But we keep hearing from clubs who have been told either Vazquez or Garcia is available for a big-time set-up arm or a top-of-the-rotation starter. "No matter what they say," says one GM, "they'll listen on either one of them." But Vazquez has already proved once (in Arizona) he won't be happy if he's traded west of the Central Time Zone. And Garcia has a $10-million contract for next year -- plus an ERA north of 6.00 since Memorial Day. So business is slow. One deal that got shot down: Garcia to the Mets for set-up force Duaner Sanchez.

[DBAHO]

Looks like KW wants that young pitching prospect to be included as well.

 

I ask for Humber. Pelfrey is way too unrealistic. Humber's a bit of a boom or bust with his injury problems. But if Minaya has problems making a deal elsewhere, maybe he'll come back to us.

 

There should be other possibilites as the deadline approaches though.

[Frankensteiner]

Those Garcia for Milledge/Sanchez rumors sure seem realistic now. We'll be lucky to get Heilman, imo. And as I mentioned yesterday, there's no way we're getting Tom Gordon for Freddy.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Frankensteiner

[DBAHO]

Those Garcia for Milledge/Sanchez rumors sure seem realistic now. We'll be lucky to get Heilman, imo. And as I mentioned yesterday, there's no way we're getting Tom Gordon for Freddy.

Minaya came out yesterday and said the only person he would consider trading Milledge for is Dontrelle Willis and he ain't available.

 

And really considering how Cliff Floyd won't be a Met next season (think his contract is up), it never made sense from the start for them to give up a potential 10 year stud in Milledge for a guy in Garcia that they may only have for a season and a half and not even produce very well.

[Frankensteiner]

Minaya came out yesterday and said the only person he would consider trading Milledge for is Dontrelle Willis and he ain't available.

 

And really considering how Cliff Floyd won't be a Met next season (think his contract is up), it never made sense from the start for them to give up a potential 10 year stud in Milledge for a guy in Garcia that they may only have for a season and a half and not even produce very well.

 

Yeah, that's what I was saying, too. My point was some people still have an over-inflated picture of Garcia's trade value.

[iamshack]

Minaya came out yesterday and said the only person he would consider trading Milledge for is Dontrelle Willis and he ain't available.

 

And really considering how Cliff Floyd won't be a Met next season (think his contract is up), it never made sense from the start for them to give up a potential 10 year stud in Milledge for a guy in Garcia that they may only have for a season and a half and not even produce very well.

 

Well, Minyana might start panicking a little, because supposedly the Cardinals are somewhat close to acquiring Dontrelle Willis.

 

I was going to start a new thread in here about that, but I know what the reputation mlbtraderumors.com has around here, so I figure I will just mention it here.

 

I think Minyana may panic were St Louis to acquire Dontrelle, as Omar might have to actually think about fortifying his rotation for an NLCS matchup.

 

I continue to believe Freddy for Heilman and Humber may be more realistic than anyone here is willing to accept, especially if some other NL contenders (the few that actually exist) add a piece or two.

[DBAHO]

Well, Minyana might start panicking a little, because supposedly the Cardinals are somewhat close to acquiring Dontrelle Willis.

 

I was going to start a new thread in here about that, but I know what the reputation mlbtraderumors.com has around here, so I figure I will just mention it here.

 

I think Minyana may panic were St Louis to acquire Dontrelle, as Omar might have to actually think about fortifying his rotation for an NLCS matchup.

 

I continue to believe Freddy for Heilman and Humber may be more realistic than anyone here is willing to accept, especially if some other NL contenders (the few that actually exist) add a piece or two.

I think at the end of the day Minaya WILL acquire a SP. You just can't go in with Steve Trachsel as your 3rd starter, when he hasn't been pitching well.

 

The million dollar question here is however, if Minaya can get a Miguel Batista or Livan Hernandez cheaper than say Freddy Garcia (most likely Washington and the D-Backs would just ask for prospects and not a bullpen piece like Sanchez and Heilman), wouldn't Minaya be better off just doing that instead? Not like there's much difference b/w the 3 pitchers ATM anyways.

 

Very interesting to hear on Willis though. Who would the Cards be giving up here? Maybe some pieces like Reyes and some stud prospects perhaps?

[Frankensteiner]

From Stark's chat:

 

Aaron (Jersey): All I hear on New York sports radio are trade rumors concerning the Mets and Dontrelle Willis. Is Willis even on the market? I think it would be stupid for Florida to trade their franchise player, especially since it looks like they could be very competetive in about 2 years

 

Jayson Stark: (11:17 AM ET ) Repeat after me: Dontrelle Willis is NOT getting traded. OK, now repeat after me again: Dontrelle Willis is NOT getting traded. Good. You're now on the road to a better and more fulfilling life. Any time spent talking about trades for Dontrelle is wasted time. Period. Not available.

[iamshack]

I think at the end of the day Minaya WILL acquire a SP. You just can't go in with Steve Trachsel as your 3rd starter, when he hasn't been pitching well.

 

The million dollar question here is however, if Minaya can get a Miguel Batista or Livan Hernandez cheaper than say Freddy Garcia (most likely Washington and the D-Backs would just ask for prospects and not a bullpen piece like Sanchez and Heilman), wouldn't Minaya be better off just doing that instead? Not like there's much difference b/w the 3 pitchers ATM anyways.

 

Very interesting to hear on Willis though. Who would the Cards be giving up here? Maybe some pieces like Reyes and some stud prospects perhaps?

 

According the mlbtraderumors, which has more or less taken the rumor off the message boards of Vivaelbirdos, which like Halosheaven, is a very solid site, as well as a writer of the Post-Dispatch who chimed in, the Cards would basically turn their entire system over to Florida. Actually, no, but they would give up Anthony Reyes, prized-prospect (and only real prospect in their system) Colby Rasmus, Chris Duncan (would Dave still whine if his kis was hit in Miami?), and 2-3 other prospects. You can't really blame Jocketty for doing this, because that team needs an infusion of youth as well as some pitching to rely on. Carpenter is nice, but they have little they can count on beyond him for the postseason.

 

As for Miguel Bautista, he would be the one to be concerned with, because I'll tell you right now, Jim Bowden won't give up Livan cheaply. Fresh from his raping of Krivsky, he is in Chuck LaMar mode and is demanding THREE top prospects for Soriano, so I imagine the price is pretty high for Hernandez as well- said to be Pelfrey or Milledge- especially considering they are division rivals. I have also heard the Mets are looking at Juan Cruz of the DBacks.

 

I agree Minyana will get a starter, it just depends on how desperate he gets. We aren't getting Sanchez though, that much is pretty clear.

[Frankensteiner]

More from Stark's chat:

 

Bob (Chicago): At what point do the White Sox move Vasquez out of the rotation? He has been getting pounded for the better part of two months

 

Jayson Stark: (11:36 AM ET ) Pounded? You're just spoiled by last year, man. Disappointing, maybe. Pounded? Not on a regular basis, anyway. But he's clearly available if Kenny Williams can get a big set-up arm back. They've struck out so far on that front. But he's trying.

[GoodAsGould]

Im not even really interested in Milledge. Pelfrey is the guy that looks most interesting to me but he is probably as untouchable as Milledge. Do you think if we get a guy like Pelfrey in return there is any chance that we trade not 1 but both Vazquez and Garcia?

[Kalapse]

Im not even really interested in Milledge. Pelfrey is the guy that looks most interesting to me but he is probably as untouchable as Milledge. Do you think if we get a guy like Pelfrey in return there is any chance that we trade not 1 but both Vazquez and Garcia?

So then you go with a 4 man rotation because I'm sure as hell not throwing Pelfrey in the rotation. That wouldn't make much sense now would it?

[GoodAsGould]

So then you go with a 4 man rotation because I'm sure as hell not throwing Pelfrey in the rotation. That wouldn't make much sense now would it?

 

why?

[Kalapse]

why?

Pelfrey in his 2 starts this year he's had trouble with command walking 7 batters, he has some serious controls problems and is not the type of guy I want to go throwing into the middle of an American League pennant race. He's cruisin' for a bruisin' in the NL, it scares me to think what would happen to him if he came over to the American League and started walking guys. I'd much rather have Javy going for me but hey maybe I don't hate him as much as most people.

[Chisoxfn]

Im not even really interested in Milledge. Pelfrey is the guy that looks most interesting to me but he is probably as untouchable as Milledge. Do you think if we get a guy like Pelfrey in return there is any chance that we trade not 1 but both Vazquez and Garcia?

I'm not interested in Milledge because I don't think we have a need for him. We already have a guy that doesn't hit for power right now with a boatload of tools (Ryan Sweeney) and he's got a far better attitude than that of Milledge.

 

I realize Sweeney isn't the sexy name he once was, but I think Milledge is over-rated. I should mention Sweeney is starting to drive the ball much better as of late, sure he's playing in Charlotte, but improvement is improvement.

 

Oh and defensively...SWEENEY >>>> MILLEDGE. Sweeney has a better arm and a better clue out in the field. Not saying Milledge doesn't have the tools to be a good defensive outfielder, but as of now he's not anything to brag about.

[Heads22]

Doesn't mean we couldn't flip Milledge.

[Chisoxfn]

Pelfrey in his 2 starts this year he's had trouble with command walking 7 batters, he has some serious controls problems and is not the type of guy I want to go throwing into the middle of an American League pennant race. He's cruisin' for a bruisin' in the NL, it scares me to think what would happen to him if he came over to the American League and started walking guys. I'd much rather have Javy going for me but hey maybe I don't hate him as much as most people.

I like the idea of picking up Pelfrey as long as we get a reliever in return as well (even if we have to give up something else in addition to). Pelfrey could be the last guy in the pen if we want and the team can slowly groom him. He's got a great arm and has front of the rotation potential (maybe not an ace, but definately a #2 or 3). That means in time we could have McCarthy and Pelfrey in the rotation and those guys could be real major players when a guy like Contreras or Vazquez or someone else takes off.

 

Plus Pelfrey could be what McCarthy was this year, on next year's squad.

 

Doesn't mean we couldn't flip Milledge.

I agree with that, but if we were to do that I think it would just be a 3 way trade.

[Kalapse]

I like the idea of picking up Pelfrey as long as we get a reliever in return as well (even if we have to give up something else in addition to). Pelfrey could be the last guy in the pen if we want and the team can slowly groom him. He's got a great arm and has front of the rotation potential (maybe not an ace, but definately a #2 or 3). That means in time we could have McCarthy and Pelfrey in the rotation and those guys could be real major players when a guy like Contreras or Vazquez or someone else takes off.

Yes, I totally agree with all of this, there's just no way I want him in the rotation this year. I think he'd be perfect in the long relief role though and would love to pickup a pitcher with his upside but not at the expense of two starting pitchers.

[Chisoxfn]

Yes, I totally agree with all of this, there's just no way I want him in the rotation this year. I think he'd be perfect in the long relief role though and would love to pickup a pitcher with his upside but not at the expense of two starting pitchers.

I'd trade Garcia for any reliever as long as it meant we also got a pretty good prospect in return. Garcia is a proven commodity and I wouldn't deal him for nothing. If all we are getting is a Tom Gordon in return than i say thanks but no thanks.

 

If we get a guy that can help us now, plus a good arm for the Future (since Kenny likes knowing he has 6 starters and thats a good thing) than its a viable move. Tom Gordon isn't going to get this team into the post-season, 5 quality starting pitchers will (I understand moving Bmac to the rotation and replacing Freddy may help that cause, but Freddy is more proven and Brandon going out and starting for a while would be rough on the pen since he wouldn't have near the durability or stamina needed to go deep into games).

[Frankensteiner]

I'd trade Garcia for any reliever as long as it meant we also got a pretty good prospect in return. Garcia is a proven commodity and I wouldn't deal him for nothing. If all we are getting is a Tom Gordon in return than i say thanks but no thanks.

 

I think the Phillies will beat you to the punch with the "thanks but no thanks." I mean, Garcia can't even get us Duaner Sanchez right now. You're really overvaluing Garcia at this point.

[Chisoxfn]

I think the Phillies will beat you to the punch with the "thanks but no thanks." I mean, Garcia can't even get us Duaner Sanchez right now. You're really overvaluing Garcia at this point.

Thats fine, I'd rather keep him than give him away for free. I've seen enough out of him that makes me think he'll still be the pitcher he has been. Maybe not this year, but I see him being fine over the long haul and I actually have some confidence after the final couple innings of his start against the Yanks.

 

My thoughts are don't ever sell low, so if you could get respectable value for Garcia fine, otherwise hold onto him because this is a guy thats been pretty damn good his entire career and still has plus breaking stuff and I'd have to think (unless he's hurt) he'll get that velocity back (especially if some of what he's doing is by choice).

 

I'm not sure if the velocity will come back this year, because I think he was out of shape and than when you mixed that in with him getting ready earlier than usual for WBC play it really mixed for a bad combination.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

I'd trade Garcia for any reliever as long as it meant we also got a pretty good prospect in return. Garcia is a proven commodity and I wouldn't deal him for nothing. If all we are getting is a Tom Gordon in return than i say thanks but no thanks.

 

If we get a guy that can help us now, plus a good arm for the Future (since Kenny likes knowing he has 6 starters and thats a good thing) than its a viable move. Tom Gordon isn't going to get this team into the post-season, 5 quality starting pitchers will (I understand moving Bmac to the rotation and replacing Freddy may help that cause, but Freddy is more proven and Brandon going out and starting for a while would be rough on the pen since he wouldn't have near the durability or stamina needed to go deep into games).

 

Not sure if this one's been tossed out, but Vazquez for Gordon straight-up. I know there's some sentiment here for trying to secure some future pieces for one of our five starters, but I'd actually do that deal. I have no idea if Philadelphia would -- probably not given that the investment in Vazquez is for more dough.

 

But Gordon on this team would be a difference-maker -- gives us the best bullpen in the league, I think, with 7, 8 and 9 lined up. McCarthy moves into the rotation, Riske slides back to the 7th inning.

 

Despite all of our troubles lately, I really think that a lockdown bullpen will be the single biggest key down the stretch. It's so helpful to the mindset of a team, and it helps tremondously on the road.

[Frankensteiner]

Thats fine, I'd rather keep him than give him away for free. I've seen enough out of him that makes me think he'll still be the pitcher he has been. Maybe not this year, but I see him being fine over the long haul and I actually have some confidence after the final couple innings of his start against the Yanks.

 

My thoughts are don't ever sell low, so if you could get respectable value for Garcia fine, otherwise hold onto him because this is a guy thats been pretty damn good his entire career and still has plus breaking stuff and I'd have to think (unless he's hurt) he'll get that velocity back (especially if some of what he's doing is by choice).

 

I'm not sure if the velocity will come back this year, because I think he was out of shape and than when you mixed that in with him getting ready earlier than usual for WBC play it really mixed for a bad combination.

 

I hear what you're saying, but is it worth it to be stubborn about his value when you're in the middle of a pennant race? As you said, he might be fine next year, but what about his 86 mph meat balls when we're chasing the Tigers? This team is built to win now; we should take advantage of it.

 

McCarthy would probably give us a better chance at winning but there's no way Ozzie starts him with Garcia still on the team. And I disagree about being sure of Garcia regaining his velocity.

 

We should decide whether or not we're interested in winning trades or winning in the playoffs.

[Chisoxfn]

I hear what you're saying, but is it worth it to be stubborn about his value when you're in the middle of a pennant race? As you said, he might be fine next year, but what about his 86 mph meat balls when we're chasing the Tigers? This team is built to win now; we should take advantage of it.

 

McCarthy would probably give us a better chance at winning but there's no way Ozzie starts him with Garcia still on the team. And I disagree about being sure of Garcia regaining his velocity.

 

We should decide whether or not we're interested in winning trades or winning in the playoffs.

I don't think McCarthy necessarily gives us a better chance. I think its a major crap shoot because of the amount of starts its going to take Brandon to build his stamina, mixed in with the amount of added stress that would put on the pen. At least I know Freddy is in the condition to throw innings and if he gets shelled so be it. I do think a lot of this will come down to whats going on with Freddy and the Sox know more about that than we do. So if he is moved there will be a reason behind it, especially if we don't get what I'd consider fair value for him (and we know thats more than what some people feel it should be).

 

As far as the poster suggesting a vaz trade, I wouldn't be for that as I'd trade Garcia before I traded anyone else on the staff. I can see where moving Garcia and getting Bmac in the rotation (assuming you get value for Garcia) could pay off, its risky but it could pay off, but keeping Garcia while also trying to get Bmac's stamina back up is a risky proposition.

[Flash Tizzle]

What's upsetting me the most about Vazquez and Garcia are both have been unable to atleast pitch ONE quality outing within two weeks. Not only have their efforts hurt our club, but their value has quickly dominished.

 

All we need is for Garcia or Vazquez to respectively pitch ONE dominating game before the trade deadline. Atleast provide an organization on the fence another thought concerning their value. Wouldn't huirt if the Mets lost 6 or 7 straight entering the trade deadline, either.