SoxHawk1980 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I find it interesting that the only things I have read on here with regard to MacDougal are: Positive - power arm, high velocity fastball Negative - injury history We are ignoring his significant and fairly consistent control problems. Throughout his major league career, he's had great stuff which he has had a good deal of difficulty controlling. He may be a guy who comes in and walks the first couple of guys he faces and throws a wild pitch or two. He certainly hasn't been a consistent slam-the-door fireman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 A bullpen arm won't matter if we can't hand them a DAMN lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxHawk1980 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 A bullpen arm won't matter if we can't hand them a DAMN lead. Actually, bullpen arms are very important in holding leads. And, btw, MacDougal has shown some significant difficulty in his career in holding leads. 50 Saves, 14 blown saves. That is a save conversion percentage of 78% which, sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I actually liked Lummy. Damn, we're getting rid of all the prospects I like. Gio, Lummy, and Tracey is optioned. When can we get rid of guys like McCarthy and Broadway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:07 PM) Actually, bullpen arms are very important in holding leads. And, btw, MacDougal has shown some significant difficulty in his career in holding leads. 50 Saves, 14 blown saves. That is a save conversion percentage of 78% which, sucks. Well, we do have that Jenks guy to close games for us. QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:12 PM) I actually liked Lummy. Damn, we're getting rid of all the prospects I like. Gio, Lummy, and Tracey is optioned. When can we get rid of guys like McCarthy and Broadway? Green? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:14 PM) Well, we do have that Jenks guy to close games for us. Green? No. I'm like Flash when it comes to guy who are just location pitchers. That includes Brandon "HOFer" McCarthy as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I'm hoping for the best, but people in KC have learned to not trust Mac. He's wild and he's still considered a "prospect" at 29. He's not very good. Hopefully a change in scenery will help him consistently get the ball over the plate. Expect some maddening outings of him walking the bases loaded unless Coop can work wonders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxHawk1980 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Well, we do have that Jenks guy to close games for us. That doesn't mean that MacDougal's history of blown saves is meaningless. You don't have to be a closer to lose a lead. You don't have to be a closer to blow a save. The fact that MacDougal has a history of giving up leads too often is certainly relevant to how good he is, and has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 This is a very steep price but thanks to the Reds and their deal you had to know it wouldn't be cheap to get any relievers now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) Quote of the year: "What year is this?" Williams asked. "Can't you win the 2008 championship in 2006?" I don't quite understand the Sandy Alomar trade just yet, but I love his aggressive move and trading away the prospects for MacDougal. This Iverson quote from many pages back made sense. Amen. Edited July 25, 2006 by Beastly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Absolutely hate this deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 04:45 AM) Absolutely hate this deal. MacDougal is going to drive us absolutely insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 11:49 PM) MacDougal is going to drive us absolutely insane. He's already driven me insane today and he hasn't even pitched yet and you can ask a couple soxtalkers about that. Lets just say I'm not in a very good mood tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Can we at least see him in action before we hate him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 11:54 PM) Can we at least see him in action before we hate him? I don't hate him but I hate the trade. Problem is, we might only see him in action once before he ends up on the dl. I hope to god I'm wrong, but I don't see this trade helping us out at all this season and to add to that, we gave up our best minor league arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 12:25 AM) This is a very steep price but thanks to the Reds and their deal you had to know it wouldn't be cheap to get any relievers now... Someone made the point after the Wickman trade -- gee, look, the Reds were stupid. It didn't set a new price, it was just dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:37 PM) Or Brandon jumps on a flight to DC . . . Send Vasquez to Wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 11:57 PM) we gave up our best minor league arm. To be honest, I don't give a damn about our 'spects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Beastly @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 12:06 AM) To be honest, I don't give a damn about our 'spects. Even if you don't, we could have got a hell of a lot more for Lumsden than a guy that can't stay off the dl. I just see this trade backfiring and big time. I have absolutely no problem trading prospects but I feel this was a completely horrid way to do so. Prove me wrong Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxHawk1980 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Even if you don't, we could have got a hell of a lot more for Lumsden than a guy that can't stay off the dl. I just see this trade backfiring and big time. I have absolutely no problem trading prospects but I feel this was a completely horrid way to do so. Prove me wrong Mike. I have no problem trading good prospects for proven major leaguers who are known commodities that can help the team immediately. MacDougal had a good, but not great season last year. It was his only genuinely good season. Because of injury, he only pitched 11 innings in 2004. Because of injury, he missed the entire first half of the this season. He's not proven, he's had a long history of injuries (including in the minors even before he made it to the majors), he's had a history of blowing leads and control problems. You don't trade one of your best minor league arms for a guy with MacDougal's resume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(knightni @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Send Vasquez to Wash. Who's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Here's Keith Law's (ESPN) take on the trade. I think this guy is a very good commentator who has a handle on minor league talent. ****************** If healthy, MacDougal's an upgrade. Monday, July 24, 2006 The White Sox's bullpen was one of its strengths in 2005, but the collapse of last year's setup man, Cliff Politte, and the offseason trade of Luis Vizcaino to Arizona left a void between the starters and closer Bobby Jenks that no newcomer was able to fill. Mike MacDougal has thrown just four innings since coming off the disabled list earlier this month but appears to be healthy, and in a tiny sample this year, has induced eight groundouts against just one flyout. He's one of the few pitchers in the majors who can miss bats and can get groundballs, so if he's healthy, he'll be a significant upgrade in the ChiSox's bullpen. This marks the first trade of the Dayton Moore Era in Kansas City, and it's a sensible one, as Moore moved one of his most tradable and least necessary assets (a closer) and added two arms to his farm system, addressing the organization's primary weakness. Like MacDougal, lefty Tyler Lumsden has had injury problems, missing all of 2005 after surgery to remove bone chips from his throwing elbow. Lumsden has an average fastball with good sink, a plus breaking ball and good control, but he hasn't had the strikeout rate you'd like to see in a starting pitching prospect; at worst, he should be an asset out of the bullpen due to his ability to get right-handers out as well as lefties. The Royals also acquired Dan Cortes, a 6-foot-5, 205-pound, 19-year-old right-hander who was Chicago's seventh-round pick in 2005. He has a fringe-average fastball and flashes a plus breaking ball at times but is still raw and has a fair amount of projection. He's an ideal second guy in a trade, especially given the paucity of pitching in the Royals' system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 11:31 AM) Here's Keith Law's (ESPN) take on the trade. I think this guy is a very good commentator who has a handle on minor league talent. ****************** If healthy, MacDougal's an upgrade. Monday, July 24, 2006 The White Sox's bullpen was one of its strengths in 2005, but the collapse of last year's setup man, Cliff Politte, and the offseason trade of Luis Vizcaino to Arizona left a void between the starters and closer Bobby Jenks that no newcomer was able to fill. Mike MacDougal has thrown just four innings since coming off the disabled list earlier this month but appears to be healthy, and in a tiny sample this year, has induced eight groundouts against just one flyout. He's one of the few pitchers in the majors who can miss bats and can get groundballs, so if he's healthy, he'll be a significant upgrade in the ChiSox's bullpen. This marks the first trade of the Dayton Moore Era in Kansas City, and it's a sensible one, as Moore moved one of his most tradable and least necessary assets (a closer) and added two arms to his farm system, addressing the organization's primary weakness. Like MacDougal, lefty Tyler Lumsden has had injury problems, missing all of 2005 after surgery to remove bone chips from his throwing elbow. Lumsden has an average fastball with good sink, a plus breaking ball and good control, but he hasn't had the strikeout rate you'd like to see in a starting pitching prospect; at worst, he should be an asset out of the bullpen due to his ability to get right-handers out as well as lefties. The Royals also acquired Dan Cortes, a 6-foot-5, 205-pound, 19-year-old right-hander who was Chicago's seventh-round pick in 2005. He has a fringe-average fastball and flashes a plus breaking ball at times but is still raw and has a fair amount of projection. He's an ideal second guy in a trade, especially given the paucity of pitching in the Royals' system. This is by far the best writeup I've seen on the trade. I think he's pretty accurate with the talk of the prospects. As much as I like Lummy, I think he is best suited as a damn good lefty reliever as opposed to a starter (thats because I don't think he has enough secondary stuff). In Cortes case, he's raw with a good arm and thats real nice for the Royals cause they get two guys with some talent. In MacDougal's case, I was talking ot my dad and he was watching the Royals game and was telling me that Mac came in and looked downright unhittable against the Angels in a game. Said he was popping it into the upper 90's with a nice breaking ball (slider). He gets good sink on his fastball and I think it will be a big benefit for him to come to a winning team for the first time in his career. He's going to really want to win and I think that type of attitude is something good to have (since he has never won in his career so a different kind of fire will be there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 12:37 PM) In MacDougal's case, I was talking ot my dad and he was watching the Royals game and was telling me that Mac came in and looked downright unhittable against the Angels in a game. Said he was popping it into the upper 90's with a nice breaking ball (slider). He gets good sink on his fastball and I think it will be a big benefit for him to come to a winning team for the first time in his career. He's going to really want to win and I think that type of attitude is something good to have (since he has never won in his career so a different kind of fire will be there). Its probably also worth noting that at least one of his major injury problems in the past has been, by a couple of sources I read yesterday, due in part to bad Mechanics (helped lead to his elbow problem in 04). As we've seen before, and recently, bad mechanics are things that can be fixed by the right pitching coach. Cooper now has a heck of a glut of talent in that bullpen to work with. Hopefully he has enough time in the day to deal with them all, especially given where the starters are right now. Oh, and his injury problems have in the past contributed to all those blown saves people were talking about a few posts ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 This is by far the best writeup I've seen on the trade. I think he's pretty accurate with the talk of the prospects. As much as I like Lummy, I think he is best suited as a damn good lefty reliever as opposed to a starter (thats because I don't think he has enough secondary stuff). Bingo, Jason ... in fact what I heard was the White Sox had Lumsden on their short list of lefty reliever candidates in case something went wrong with Thornton or Cotts (this was after Javier Lopez was dealt). They had him profiled into the bullpen, similar to Cotts. He has a really good arm but as you correctly identify, secondary stuff is not his strong suit, he is very much a work in progress. I am not diminishing him, he is a good prospect, but it's not the end of the world he was traded. If Cortes makes it, I tip my cap to KC scouts. He is extremely young and unpolished. I think they simply liked his arm and felt he'd be a good add in. KW may have overpaid slightly because it's an inside the division trade ... Royals have to face Macdougal too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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