State of the System

[Flash Tizzle]

Dbaho once said, "Where's our Tyler Lumsden?" It was a good laugh then, but now, it's quite sad to think about.

 

Our minor league pitching is nonexistent. If it weren't decimated before, it's completely destroyed now.

 

Is there one legitimate arm remaining in our system? If anyone here says Lance Broadway is now our top pitching prospect I'm going to die of laughter.

 

Tell me Heads and company, what do we have to look forward to? Who's the closest to contributing? Where would we rank in comparison to other clubs? Where's our Liriano?

[Chisoxfn]

Broadway, Whisler, Harrell, Russell, McCulloch, Liotta (pitched good on the road, but man did he stink at the Met and was obviously demoted), quite a few decent younger arms down in the lower levels that will take a lot more time and well anything can happen with those guys.

 

Sean Tracey should be mentioned as well.

 

Following the deadline we'll be doing a mid-season top 20 too. We were going to do it before, but figure its best to wait and see who else goes.

[Guest JimH]

Dbaho once said, "Where's our Tyler Lumsden?" It was a good laugh then, but now, it's quite sad to think about.

 

Our minor league pitching is nonexistent. If it weren't decimated before, it's completely destroyed now.

 

Is there one legitimate arm remaining in our system? If anyone here says Lance Broadway is now our top pitching prospect I'm going to die of laughter.

 

Tell me Heads and company, what do we have to look forward to? Who's the closest to contributing? Where would we rank in comparison to other clubs? Where's our Liriano?

 

Flash you couldn't possibly be overreacting more. I know this is a pet peeve of yours but saying the minor league pitching is completely destroyed because they traded Tyler Lumsden and Daniel Cortes is flat out wrong.

 

All you have to do is go to Baseball America and look at all the affiliates and also their draft lists over the past 2-3 years. Now you may not see anything you personally are enamored of because apparantly anything less than Liriano will fit the bill for you, but that doesn't really matter now does it. What does matter is if Sox brass continues to either plug these guys in, or moves them for useful major league pieces.

[fathom]

Flash you couldn't possibly be overreacting more. I know this is a pet peeve of yours but saying the minor league pitching is completely destroyed because they traded Tyler Lumsden and Daniel Cortes is flat out wrong.

 

All you have to do is go to Baseball America and look at all the affiliates and also their draft lists over the past 2-3 years. Now you may not see anything you personally are enamored of because apparantly anything less than Liriano will fit the bill for you, but that doesn't really matter now does it. What does matter is if Sox brass continues to either plug these guys in, or moves them for useful major league pieces.

 

For me, the minor leagues aren't as important as they were a few years ago. Winning has led to more attendance, and we're now able to have our payroll help us fill holes more. As long as JR is spending money, I have no problem with KW trading prospects for major league ready players. Everyone in baseball knows that our window is 2005-2007.

[BigSqwert]

Where's our Liriano?

29 other teams can say that.

[Flash Tizzle]

Everyone in baseball knows that our window is 2005-2007.

When members imply such a window of opportuniy exists, it usually rests on our starting rotation. Lumsden, IMO, was pivotal to maintaining a reasonable turnover.

 

Why is our window only two years? Does that mean after 2007 concludes the team is dismantled and rebuilding begins? I'd like for our window to extend far beyond two seasons. Even with an increased payroll, we're not going to outbid many teams for legitimate talent. Legitimate talent brings in ridiculous contracts, which I don't believe we're going to be a part of. Konerko's situation was unique; one I doubt others follow.

 

A working system is key to sustained success. Inserting cheap roster players would only assist in alloting more money towards higher priced talent. It should be the first priority of any major league organization. There should be balance between holding onto prospects and letting them develop. With MacDougal, and what he's gone through with injuries, giving up Lumsden alone is excessive. You include Cortes and I'd expect more certainty about the return product. Factor in the inconsistent nature of healthy relief pitchers, and everyone should realize MacDougal is not worthy of what was given.

 

Perhaps I'm subconsciously afraid of the one Liriano move which sends our organization back 5+ years. Or maybe I just dislike World Championships.

[He_Gawn]

So your saying we should do what the Twins do, and save and develop our prospects. How many championships has it won them?

[Guest JimH]

A working system is key to sustained success. Inserting cheap roster players would only assist in alloting more money towards higher priced talent. It should be the first priority of any major league organization. There should be balance between holding onto prospects and letting them develop. With MacDougal, and what he's gone through with injuries, giving up Lumsden alone is excessive. You include Cortes and I'd expect more certainty about the return product. Factor in the inconsistent nature of healthy relief pitchers, and everyone should realize MacDougal is not worthy of what was given.

 

No, the first priority of any major league organization should be winning. And when you're contending and you have good players, add to it.

 

Your valuation of the trade market is a bit askew IMO. Relief pitching is at a major premium this year, just about every contender wants to add to their bullpen. I know you somehow feel Williams should always get a lot and not give up anything, but that's not reality.

[Gene Honda Civic]

No, the first priority of any major league organization should be winning. And when you're contending and you have good players, add to it.

 

Your valuation of the trade market is a bit askew IMO. Relief pitching is at a major premium this year, just about every contender wants to add to their bullpen. I know you somehow feel Williams should always get a lot and not give up anything, but that's not reality.

Thornton for DFA candidate Borchard

Riske for AAAA non-roster invitee Lopez

Jenks off of waivers

 

Using high ceilinged arms for bullpen help is not a good idea. I don't care what Krivsky did. You don't have to give up the farm to get good bullpen help, especially one with as sketchy a history as MacDougal.

[Guest JimH]

Thornton for DFA candidate Borchard

Riske for AAAA non-roster invitee Lopez

Jenks off of waivers

 

Using high ceilinged arms for bullpen help is not a good idea. I don't care what Krivsky did. You don't have to give up the farm to get good bullpen help, especially one with as sketchy a history as MacDougal.

 

Well maybe if you analyzed a little closer, you'd know there's a difference between the trade deadline vs. April, June, and December, roughly the time frame when those three transactions occured.

 

Give up the farm? Good Lord, what's next, the White Sox just ruined their future?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Well maybe if you analyzed a little closer, you'd know there's a difference between the trade deadline vs. April, June, and December, roughly the time frame when those three transactions occured.

 

Give up the farm? Good Lord, what's next, the White Sox just ruined their future?

Well than I suppose making a move now, when the value of relievers is apparently through the roof, is also an indictment of Williams inability to get a deal done sooner.

 

I mean if relievers are expensive in July, but cheap in June, WTF are you buying them for in July?

[Chisoxfn]

In general I'm on the board that says we gave up some awfully good arms to get a guy whose got a great arm but really has yet to put it all together (not to mention two arm injuries).

 

I understand Kenny did whats necessary, but this (along with the Javy move) are about the two moves (at the time they were made) where I was left thinking they were questionable.

 

I saw the logic in them though and while he overpaid, he did fill a need (RH Reliever) by getting us MacDougal.

[Guest JimH]

Well than I suppose making a move now, when the value of relievers is apparently through the roof, is also an indictment of Williams inability to get a deal done sooner.

 

I mean if relievers are expensive in July, but cheap in June, WTF are you buying them for in July?

 

Many times relievers, or other players for that matter, aren't available just because the White Sox want and need them. This isn't WalMart.

 

There are about 20 teams that were/are chasing relief help. The White Sox go out and get a potentially impact arm. Now of course if he hadn't gone out and gotten bullpen help, this board would go ballistic when the bullpen falters.

 

Really easy to criticize. However, realities of the baseball business come into play.

[Rowand44]

I saw the logic in them though and while he overpaid, he did fill a need (RH Reliever) by getting us MacDougal.

But for how long, jas? This guy just has such a violent delivery that I basically never think he's going to remain healthy and history isn't on his side either. Like I said in the trade thread, I have absolutely no problem trading our top prospects but I do have a problem trading them for a guy like this. I just don't see Mike lasting more than about 3 weeks before he ends up back on the dl. This trade is going to hurt imo.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Rowand44

[CWSGuy406]

This year has really been a lot different w/r/t Kenny's trades than any other. I personally cannot remember such an exodus of good prospects. In the past, other than Reed (I might be missing others), it seemed like we were trading some high ceiling guys, but guys who hadn't quite put it together yet.

 

Maybe "hadn't quite put it together" isn't the right phrase. I'm just saying -- we've lost Chris Young, Gio Gonzalez, and Tyler Lumsden -- in the past year. At the time these moves were made, I'd say that all three were in our top five. Now, Gonzalez has fallen back to earth (lots of BBs and HRs, although the K-rate is still superb), but Young, Lumsden -- these guys are legit.

 

I know people like to throw around phrases "win now" and "prospects haven't proven ****", but I'm sort of with Flash (not to his extreme, but with his general premise). I don't want this to be a two year run, and then a fall back to mediocrity and 'average-ness'.

 

Coming full-circle with the trade today, guys with Lumsden's stuff are really hard to find. If things haven't changed since spring training, we're talking about a lefty (who was coming off surgery) throwing in the mid-90s (not touching the mid-90s -- sitting at 92-94) with a good slider. I'm not as pissed about Cortez -- I can understand why some would be -- but that's mainly because I don't really start to track prospects until they hit high-A.

 

How much is MacDougal really going to help us this year? At most, he pitches what, 20-30 innings? We're talking about a reliever with a.)violent mechanics (I'm not pitching coach, but that looks as far from 'clean' as can be) and b.)very little track record of success. He's had one good year out of the bullpen, coming in 2004. In 2003, he was what I would deem average, with a 4.08 ERA and eight blown saves in 35 opportunities.

 

Is his stuff intriguing? Hell yeah it is. But again, he's a reliever -- his impact on the team is and will be extremely limited.

 

You would've thought that Kenny Williams, of all people, would know that you don't need to go trading solid young arms for relievers. Look at the guys in the 'pen.

 

Jenks - acquired off waivers.

Thorton - acquired for Borchard.

Cotts - a PTBNL in the Koch deal.

McCarthy - homegrown player.

Riske - acquired for Lopez.

 

I guess that's the most dissappointing thing. Other than money, the Sox have given up nothing in putting together a pretty decent bullpen.

 

Bye bye, Tyler. Good luck in KC.

Edited July 25, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[DBAHO]

Dbaho once said, "Where's our Tyler Lumsden?" It was a good laugh then, but now, it's quite sad to think about.

 

Our minor league pitching is nonexistent. If it weren't decimated before, it's completely destroyed now.

 

Is there one legitimate arm remaining in our system? If anyone here says Lance Broadway is now our top pitching prospect I'm going to die of laughter.

 

Tell me Heads and company, what do we have to look forward to? Who's the closest to contributing? Where would we rank in comparison to other clubs? Where's our Liriano?

Nice of you to remember that Flash.

 

Flash just have faith that our minor league system will be back up in the top half of the league, sooner than you think.

 

In the draft 2 years ago, the Sox selected Lumsden, Gonzalez, Liotta and Whisler. The 1st 2 are gone, being moved for parts to help this team win now, the latter 2 are still here.

 

Who is our best SP prospect? Ok I'll say Broadway.

 

But don't forget, we've got Harrell who's still very young who is now at AA, Whisler should be up there now, and other arms like Brooks and McCullough.

 

We'll stock up again on pitching, and I think our track record of developing pitching is a lot better than other teams in the MLB.

 

But once again, 29 other teams will be asking themselves, "Where's our Liriano?".

 

But for how long, jas? This guy just has such a violent delivery that I basically never think he's going to remain healthy and history isn't on his side either. Like I said in the trade thread, I have absolutely no problem trading our top prospects but I do have a problem trading them for a guy like this. I just don't see Mike lasting more than about 3 weeks before he ends up back on the dl. This trade is going to hurt imo.

Maybe Coop will tweak Mike's delivery a bit. At least we control him until 2009 and this isn't a 2 month rental like say a Scott Sullivan. I'm gonna wait judgement on this for a while to see how MacDougall does. Riske and Thornton have done quite well for us since they've been acquired, hopefully Mike can do the same.

 

At least he gives us closer experience as well, in case Bobby ever gets in a slump or injured.

[GoodAsGould]

The only problem though in my mind is that we possibly just had one of the worse drafts in recent history. Our first round pick is in rookie ball for some reason even though he is a seasoned college pitcher. Our 2nd rounder has been lit up in Low A. Our third round pick has been ok but not that good also in rookie ball. A lot of the guys we took that would of made it a good draft didnt sign.....

[DBAHO]

The only problem though in my mind is that we possibly just had one of the worse drafts in recent history. Our first round pick is in rookie ball for some reason even though he is a seasoned college pitcher. Our 2nd rounder has been lit up in Low A. Our third round pick has been ok but not that good also in rookie ball. A lot of the guys we took that would of made it a good draft didnt sign.....

I think it's a bit early to judge how this year's draft is going to pan out.

 

McCullough you'd think would be up at Kanny for his next start, with Cortes moving on. You have to remember with the college guys like him and Long, they will have thrown quite a few innings already this season, and like Broadway did this time last year could be going through a bit of a dead arm period possibly.

[GoodAsGould]

I think it's a bit early to judge how this year's draft is going to pan out.

 

McCullough you'd think would be up at Kanny for his next start, with Cortes moving on. You have to remember with the college guys like him and Long, they will have thrown quite a few innings already this season, and like Broadway did this time last year could be going through a bit of a dead arm period possibly.

 

Yeah the draft can still be a very successful one, but from the early looks of it Im not too impressed. A course I was not impressed with our draft to begin with so I guess im a little biased against it as well.

[DBAHO]

Yeah the draft can still be a very successful one, but from the early looks of it Im not too impressed. A course I was not impressed with our draft to begin with so I guess im a little biased against it as well.

I guess it's not like the draft we had 2 years ago when we had lots of early picks and came out with a lot of good SP prospects (of which most aren't with the organization today).

 

But I think the Sox's draft record at least in the 1st round over the past few seasons is pretty good.

[shawnhillegas]

jesus christ, when Kenny trades 1, just 1 player who comes back to haunt us...then maybe Ill worry. Seriously, just one, then at least theres some precedent. We arent working with Brandon Woods and Justin Uptons here folks. have a little faith in the people who get paid 100,000 dollars a year to evalute these moves. they have done a good job so far. and im not saying its above criticism, im just theres a lot of melodrama around here lately. (and no i dont think it was a good trade, but im going to follow kenny here)

Edited July 25, 2006 by shawnhillegas

[santo=dorf]

I don't get it. Flash says our farm system sucks before we make any trades, then he whines about trading away our precious farm system when the trade is made.

 

Last time I checked, the only free agent to be pitcher on the Sox is David Riske. After 2007 it's Buehrle (Not too sure what Thornton's contract status is.)

 

It was mentioned KW was looking to to trade Garcia this past offseason, so why not move one of Garland/Vazquez/Garcia for a younger pitcher and some precious prospects, bring back Riske and/or sign another arm.

 

I'd much rather have Macdougal through 2009 than Gordon and his $13 million comittment through 2008.

 

Why wasn't Haeger mentioned in the second post?

 

Going into 2007:

Buehrle

Contreras

Garland

Garcia

Vazquez

 

Jenks

Macdougal

Cotts

Thornton

McCarthy

Riske

 

Seriously. Look at how long we control all of those arms and tell me why I should give two spiffs on how trading pitching prospects is a bad idea to when we might have to fill possibly 1, ONE hole. (Which can be done by re-signing Riske)

Edited July 25, 2006 by santo=dorf

[Frankensteiner]

For me, the minor leagues aren't as important as they were a few years ago. Winning has led to more attendance, and we're now able to have our payroll help us fill holes more. As long as JR is spending money, I have no problem with KW trading prospects for major league ready players. Everyone in baseball knows that our window is 2005-2007.

 

I will disagree with you here. If a team can support a $100 million payroll, then I don't think you have a window. You should stay competetive every year.

[fathom]

I will disagree with you here. If a team can support a $100 million payroll, then I don't think you have a window. You should stay competetive every year.

 

The window is based more upon other teams in our division, and their young players reaching their peak. We're not exactly a young team right now.

[Flash Tizzle]

I don't get it. Flash says our farm system sucks before we make any trades, then he whines about trading away our precious farm system when the trade is made.

Lumsden was one of the few prospects I've supported for quite awhile.