cav38 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 im new here, my first post. let me start off by saying its time to either trade vazquez or send him to the pen. it seems he cant avoid the big inning and this team cannot afford it anymore. ideally, trade him for a reliever, if not send him to the pen because he seems to pitch 4 dominating innings then just blows up. whatever the solution is, its time to close the book on the javier vazquez experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo's Drinker Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 fine first post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I'd like to say welcome aboard. We have a thread discussing Javy and his problems so in a few minutes I'll move this post there (but I want to leave it open so you see this and realize the post was not deleted, rather moved). Secondly as someone thats backed Javy the past couple weeks I do think its relatively frustrating. He made some good pitches in the 6th but got beat and than in the 7th he did get himself into a rut and Cotts almost got through it, but instead gave up a monster hr. It hurts that Javy did this for 2 straight starts (cruising and than voila) but I don't see the club trading its pitching. Kenny has repeatedly said he will not trade any of his starters and unless he gets blown away (or someone has an attitude spat) I think for the most part this is the team that we are going to go with down the stretch. Its just a matter of the team getting some clutch hits and quality starts and as far as I'm concerned the talent is there. One thing I'm openly concerned about is whether the playesr are wearing on Ozzie. I'm not in the know when it comes to that so I can only hope thats not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I was opposed to Javy the reliever given his failures with the Yanks in such a role but lately he's been so good the first few innings that perhaps swapping him and McCarthy in roles might improve us in TWO areas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonderman38 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I was watching the Tigers game, and I had turned it over to the Sox game and it was 2-0 Sox. Then about 5 minutes later I turned it, it was 6-2 Twins. Did Javier implode again? Or was he out already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Bonderman38 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 08:28 PM) I was watching the Tigers game, and I had turned it over to the Sox game and it was 2-0 Sox. Then about 5 minutes later I turned it, it was 6-2 Twins. Did Javier implode again? Or was he out already? Most would say Javier imploded, I would say the Twins just hit good pitches and than in the 6th you could make a case for him imploding with Cotts almost getting out of the jam but giving up a 3 run Hr to Mauer (who he threw a 3-1 FB to, and it was questionable why we threw to Mauer at that point instead of walking him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) Most would say Javier imploded, I would say the Twins just hit good pitches and than in the 6th you could make a case for him imploding with Cotts almost getting out of the jam but giving up a 3 run Hr to Mauer (who he threw a 3-1 FB to, and it was questionable why we threw to Mauer at that point instead of walking him). Jas this is not the first time this has happened. This is not a lets tip our hat to the opposing offense moments here. We have a pattern. To me, Javy is the same thing as our 5th starter is to the 2004 team. He is an autoloss. I bet our team was waiting around for him to detonate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 03:43 AM) Jas this is not the first time this has happened. This is not a lets tip our hat to the opposing offense moments here. We have a pattern. To me, Javy is the same thing as our 5th starter is to the 2004 team. He is an autoloss. I bet our team was waiting around for him to detonate. You definitely get this feeling that the team is sitting around waiting for something bad to happen. I don't think this trade deadline madness is going to help anything either. Edited July 25, 2006 by fathom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 08:43 PM) Jas this is not the first time this has happened. This is not a lets tip our hat to the opposing offense moments here. We have a pattern. To me, Javy is the same thing as our 5th starter is to the 2004 team. He is an autoloss. I bet our team was waiting around for him to detonate. I think your going a bit overboard...in 04 we won like 1 game all year from the 5th spot, javy has a winning record. I realize he gets uber run support, but I don't think you can compare the two. QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 08:44 PM) You definitely get this feeling that the team is sitting around waiting for something bad to happen. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if Javy is. I bet after that hit he went, spiff, here it goes again. That is why it may not be bad to take him out if he has 5 strong his next start so he could leave a game with his head held eye and rebuild some confidence (kind of like Ozzie did with Jon, where he started taking him out of games a bit earlier and now recently he's started to let Jon go deeper). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:45 PM) I think your going a bit overboard...in 04 we won like 1 game all year from the 5th spot, javy has a winning record. I realize he gets uber run support, but I don't think you can compare the two. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if Javy is. I bet after that hit he went, spiff, here it goes again. That is why it may not be bad to take him out if he has 5 strong his next start so he could leave a game with his head held eye and rebuild some confidence (kind of like Ozzie did with Jon, where he started taking him out of games a bit earlier and now recently he's started to let Jon go deeper). I actually think that would hurt him more than help. I mean, a guy is dominating for 5 innings and then gets taken out? I'm sure he'll know it's because they don't have any faith in him past 5 innings. That could actually end up hurting what already has to be his waning confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 08:51 PM) I actually think that would hurt him more than help. I mean, a guy is dominating for 5 innings and then gets taken out? I'm sure he'll know it's because they don't have any faith in him past 5 innings. That could actually end up hurting what already has to be his waning confidence. But if he gets the win thats just as good. And it means he goes a few starts without having that happen. Like I said, If I were managing I wouldn't have done anything different tonight with the exception of walking Mauer once Cotts fell behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stretchstretch Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 plus the Solo Shot Sox continue to give very weak run support, more HRs with no one on, would be great to give the guy a nice 4 run lead and see what he can do...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 as bad as Javy has been since May, our bigger problem right now is that our offense is basically non-functional. It seems like we can only score on homers and this just isn't a healthy offense right now. Something has got to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(stretchstretch @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:57 PM) plus the Solo Shot Sox continue to give very weak run support, more HRs with no one on, would be great to give the guy a nice 4 run lead and see what he can do...... Give up five? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(stretchstretch @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:57 PM) plus the Solo Shot Sox continue to give very weak run support, more HRs with no one on, would be great to give the guy a nice 4 run lead and see what he can do...... ...they've given him tons of run support this year and he enjoys giving it up. Furthermore, when did the Twins become an offensive juggernaut? 4 runs can beat the Twins if there's a good pitcher out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tealeafreaderii Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(G&T @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 11:21 PM) ...they've given him tons of run support this year and he enjoys giving it up. Furthermore, when did the Twins become an offensive juggernaut? 4 runs can beat the Twins if there's a good pitcher out there. when morneau started hitting well... they became a much better team... It took more then pitching to get out fo the hole they dug themself at the start of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 It's pretty much a mental thing now. Instead of not "hurting his feelings", Ozzie has to think more about winning than having his players like him. At the end of 5, pull Javy. Put in BMAC for 2 innings then bring in the setup guys. Work on Javy's brain cramps in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:52 PM) But if he gets the win thats just as good. And it means he goes a few starts without having that happen. Like I said, If I were managing I wouldn't have done anything different tonight with the exception of walking Mauer once Cotts fell behind. I agree with that, but I think the leash needs to be shorter on Javy. Cruising or not, this seems to be a lasting trend. With MacDougal now in the pen, the Sox seem like they'd be better off putting it in the hands of fresh arms. Six innings should be his limit. But you also have to wonder why Ozzie didn't tell Cotts to put Mauer on. A 3-1 count only meant trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Vazquez dominated for 5 innings. You don't throw the way he did if your stuff is easily replaced. The "one big inning" seems more of a mental block, judging by some of his comments on the radio I heard from him. One thing to consider---The sox showed much greater patience with Garland and Jose. Those situations panned out well. IMO, they should and will show the same patience with Javy. Cut him loose after 4 months with the club? Not going to happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangar18 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:51 PM) I actually think that would hurt him more than help. I mean, a guy is dominating for 5 innings and then gets taken out? I'm sure he'll know it's because they don't have any faith in him past 5 innings. That could actually end up hurting what already has to be his waning confidence. Ozzie said he was going to start short leashing him (5innings), but then HASNT. Its just as much Ozzies fault that he hasnt caught on and seen the clues, Javy isnt an AL pitcher. Being in the bullpen would be very creative, and I could see him doing WELL. Anyone remember a guy named Kirk McCaskill? He was brutal in the rotation, he was put in the bullpen and the guy did amazing. Wish I could find my post, where I said I didnt like this guy. Think it was after his 4th start or so ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 As always through the first five innings he looked awesome. retiring like the first 6 hitters. Than of course the 6th. Cuddyer hit a home run that just landed about 20 min ago. Maybe him and Bmac should trade spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 03:40 AM) Most would say Javier imploded, I would say the Twins just hit good pitches and than in the 6th you could make a case for him imploding with Cotts almost getting out of the jam but giving up a 3 run Hr to Mauer (who he threw a 3-1 FB to, and it was questionable why we threw to Mauer at that point instead of walking him). True. There were more culprits than just Javier Vazquez last night. Watching this guy pitch when he is on is a true thing of beauty. He is absolutely great. Trouble is it only lasts 5 innings. I don't think his stuff goes South as much as his approach to the hitters. He doesn't seem to throw the best pitches or alter his routine when he gets in trouble and that's why big league hitters clobber him in the 6th and 7th. It is quite possible that he and McCarthy need to be the pitching team. One goes 5 or so and the other finishes it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgtp Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I totally agree.. Javy has killer stuff. Once he gets into the 5th is where he falls apart. I heard temas are batting .385 on him after the fifth inning. How about they pull javy after 5 and let Bmac pitch the next 2-3 innings? Lets Bmac get more pitching time to get him ready to start next year. and it Leaves macdougal , thorton, and cotts for releif. And jenks to close it out. WOrks for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 At some point with him, do we just get to the "Let Cooper keep working with him and hope for the best" phase? Can't recall who, but at least one person was saying that Cooper has really been working with Vaz on improving his pitching with runners on base. We've seen what he can do for 5 innings, if he can just hold it together a little more and find a groove, he could really help us. Then again, maybe I'm just hoping Cooper can do something he just can't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrain081 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Yeah, there's a difference between patience and ignorance. If they're gonna be patient, they need to at least build his confidence by not letting him pitch to the order the third time, whether it be in the third or sixth inning. McCarthy is more than capable to go out there and shut people down for a few innings. Leaving Vazquez out there longer than the sixth (I don't care about pitch count) is not going to win us any games. I don't care how much he's paid, if he can't go out there and do it for seven innings, then we will pay him a lot to do it for six, and hope he comes aronud in the future. We can still get our money's worth if we use him properly. I have no problem with him going five or six innings with McCarthy waiting in the pen. Otherwise, what's the point of having McCarthy; Ozzie hardly ever uses him for more than a few batters anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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