Ozzie's Luck Has Run Out

[Rishard101]

Okay I'm not saying Ozzie is a bad manager or anything, I think he is great at motivating a team and having them ready to play everyday, as well as adding in the element of suprise every once in a while. However, I don't think his baseball IQ is very high. The last two and a half years I have seen him make countless strategic mistakes, which I thought were crazy b/c he was managing with his "gut." Everytime it seems like he has done this his player has picked him up and gotten the job done, and I've said "Ozzie got lucky on that one." I think this way of manging has now caught up to Ozzie and it is showing in the win column. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[SoxHawk1980]

Okay I'm not saying Ozzie is a bad manager or anything, I think he is great at motivating a team and having them ready to play everyday, as well as adding in the element of suprise every once in a while. However, I don't think his baseball IQ is very high. The last two and a half years I have seen him make countless strategic mistakes, which I thought were crazy b/c he was managing with his "gut." Everytime it seems like he has done this his player has picked him up and gotten the job done, and I've said "Ozzie got lucky on that one." I think this way of manging has now caught up to Ozzie and it is showing in the win column. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Ozzie is a good manager outside of the actual game. During the game, he's one of the worst managers in baseball. His in-game decision making is just plain horrible.

[MHizzle85]

Why not just change the title of this thread to "Come here to bash Ozzie!!!"

[SoxHawk1980]

Why not just change the title of this thread to "Come here to bash Ozzie!!!"

Works for me. His performance in games deserves to be bashed.

[greg775]

I like everything about Oz, especially the fact he led the sox to its first baseball title since Babe Ruth

was a baby.

[iamshack]

Works for me. His performance in games deserves to be bashed.

 

Any manager is easy to bash when the players just aren't getting it done. Ozzie is going his best, putting guys in situations where they have chances to succeed, and they just aren't succeeding. They are failing.

EVERY MANAGER CAN BE SECOND GUESSED under those circumstances.

[SoxHawk1980]

I like everything about Oz, especially the fact he led the sox to its first baseball title since Babe Ruth

was a baby.

So that championship gives him a pass for everything he does and doesn't do for the rest of his career?

 

In reality, he's good at some things and bad at other things. His in-game decision making has always been bad.

[MHizzle85]

Works for me. His performance in games deserves to be bashed.

 

Well why dont you go to the ballpark tommorow and take Ozzie's place...

[SoxHawk1980]

Any manager is easy to bash when the players just aren't getting it done. Ozzie is going his best, putting guys in situations where they have chances to succeed, and they just aren't succeeding. They are failing.

EVERY MANAGER CAN BE SECOND GUESSED under those circumstances.

Is Ozzie putting the team in situations to succeed when he plays his bench players almost as much as his regulars, including against the first place Tigers? Is Ozzie putting the team in situations to succeed when he routinely leaves starting pitchers out there long enough for them to fail and bury the team?

 

The pitchers and position players aren't performing well. Ozzie isn't performing well either, in that he's making horrible in-game decisions. There is lots of blame to go around, including for Ozzie.

 

Well why dont you go to the ballpark tommorow and take Ozzie's place...

I'd be happy to, but I doubt KW would agree to it.

Edited July 26, 2006 by SoxHawk1980

[greg775]

His in-game decision making has always been bad.

Sorry but that is simply not true. If his decision making has always been bad we would not have won all those games

last postseason. Some of those games were close, as I recall.

Managers are so easy to blame. Oz is not a bum. I'm not saying he's the best in baseball history but I guarantee you with

the exception of the Tigers this year if you followed every team closely you probably would consider that team's manager

as bad as Ozzie. When teams lose a game unless it's 13-0 there's always something to blame the manager about.

I can't believe you think Ozzie's "in game decision making has always been bad."

[DonkeyKongerko]

After a couple years, do any fans really think their team has a good in-game manager? I'm not defending Ozzie as I've had my qualms about him too. I'd just like to put things in perspective and remind you that bad pitching will make any manager look like an idiot.

[SoxHawk1980]

Sorry but that is simply not true. If his decision making has always been bad we would not have won all those games

last postseason. Some of those games were close, as I recall.

Managers are so easy to blame. Oz is not a bum. I'm not saying he's the best in baseball history but I guarantee you with

the exception of the Tigers this year if you followed every team closely you probably would consider that team's manager

as bad as Ozzie. When teams lose a game unless it's 13-0 there's always something to blame the manager about.

I can't believe you think Ozzie's "in game decision making has always been bad."

The facts are the facts. Ozzie handles the pitching staff very badly. He leaves starting pitchers in too long too often. Very often, he just leaves them in long enough to get hammered, and then leaves them in for a few batters more. Additionally, his mishandling of the bullpen is well documented.

 

Also, he loves to play bench players so much that we are typically playing with 7/9ths of the regular starting lineup.

 

I can't believe you think his in-game decision making is even decent.

 

I'd just like to put things in perspective and remind you that bad pitching will make any manager look like an idiot.

And some managers can make bad pitching worse. Two starts ago, Vazquez starts to get hammered in the 6th. Ozzie leaves him in to take more punishment and allow more runs to score. Vazquez's last start, he again starts to implode in the 6th and Ozzie leaves him in to allow more runs to score, AND start the next inning (allowing two baserunners before finally being pulled). These are just two examples of many, many examples of poor handling of pitchers. Most major league managers aren't that bad.

[greg775]

I can't believe you think his in-game decision making is even decent.

Question to you then: Do you think Ozzie managed well in our close games last posteason? Yes or no?

[SoxHawk1980]

Question to you then: Do you think Ozzie managed well in our close games last posteason? Yes or no?

Overall, yes. He certainly made many more mistakes in the regular season...and this year.

[redandwhite]

Ozzie! Ozzie! Ozzie!

Zoinks.

 

It didn't take long for Ozzie Guillen's phone to ring Sunday. Then again, the White Sox manager knew it was only the first wave of a potential weeklong tsunami.

 

"I already had a couple of phone calls, not nice ones,'' Guillen said. "A couple of teams called, but I could care less what they think.

 

Anybody want to take my bet that this guy will either be out of baseball or beaten to a pulp within the next five years?

 

"Whoever is not on this team, they have my number. They have my PR department's number. Whoever doesn't like it, play better next year.''

 

Oh, but see, Ozzie, I'm guessing that the reason they were angry, whoever they were, is because their guys did play better, and you chose your own players instead. For example, you kind of can't play better than Travis Hafner has, since he leads the AL in OPS, and yet you took Paul Konerko, even though the other 1B/DH type on your own team was already going, and even though Hafner's OPS is more than 100 points higher than Konerko's, and even though Hafner leads Konerko is every single meaningful (and most unmeaningful) categories.

 

I know Konerko is good, but you have two guys who play the same positions from the same team -- your team -- instead of, say, one guy from your team and one guy from another team who is better.

 

You also decided to take Bobby Jenks, who is good and has a lot of "saves," instead of Francisco Liriano or Jeremy Bonderman or even John Lackey (anyone seen his OPS against recently?). These people all arguably "played better" than your guy, but you took your guy, so they got upset.

 

Guillen had been promising all along that when it came time to put together the American League All-Star team, he would take as many Sox players as he could.

 

Oh. So, it had nothing to do with "playing better." He actually already announced that the fix was in. "You want to win the election?" asked Boss Tweed. "Campaign better!"

 

He also knew his decision would come under a lot of scrutiny. By the time the fan and player voting ended, Guillen was left with getting an AL-leading six Sox players into the July 11 midsummer classic in Pittsburgh -- none of whom was voted in by the fans as a starter.

 

Sox right fielder Jermaine Dye, designated hitter Jim Thome and pitcher Jose Contreras were selected through the players' vote. First baseman Paul Konerko, pitcher Mark Buehrle and closer Bobby Jenks were selected by Guillen. Jenks and Contreras are first-timers to the game.

 

"I don't like it,'' Guillen said of the difficulty he faced in putting the team together. "But I do hope that I get to do it again next year. There are a lot of rules that fans and players have to know about. The manager really ends up picking two guys.

 

You picked three guys. And they were all from your team.

 

"It's a shame to have your hands tied like that. I didn't even get three of my favorite players on the ballclub.''

 

Oh, the humanity! You didn't even get your three favorite guys on the team? Ye Gods! What has the Major League Baseball All Star Game come to when Ozzie Guillen only gets to have six of his own players on the team -- and not even three of his "favorites?"

 

By the way, if I were on his team and was not one of these "favorites," I would be pissed off right now.

 

Guillen said catcher A.J. Pierzynski, second baseman Tadahito Iguchi and third baseman Joe Crede should have made the team. Pierzynski still has a chance as one of five AL candidates for one spot via Internet fan voting.

 

Pierzynski is actually deserving. He has a 2.8 WARP1 and a .281 EqA this year. Pudge is 3.0 and .263 (the higher WARP attributed to his defense). Iguchi...well, he has a .779 OPS, which isn't bad for a 2B (better than Loretta's, and he's starting). But he also has a 1.5 WARP1, thanks to some sub-par defense (-5 FRAA). He also has 66/23 K/Bb ratio. Which stinks. And a .257 EqA. Crede is a very good 3B, with a 3.5 WARP1 and .287 EqA.

 

But here's the problem. There's a guy named Travis Hafner. He plays for the Indians.

 

OPS: 1.084

WARP1: 4.6

EqA: .364 (!)

 

And there's a guy named Jason Giambi, who is a dirty dirty cheater, but he also has done this:

 

OPS: 1.054

WARP1: 3.4

EqA: .347

 

And as far as Iguchi, specifically, goes, there is a guy named Brian Roberts, who plays for the Orioles.

 

OPS: .787

WARP1: 2.2

EqA: .278

 

So, you can see that Crede and Iguchi are not quite--

 

"The one guy that I was really pushing [Crede] was the one guy that didn't make it,'' Guillen said. "I'm going to tell Joe, 'You can go, I'll stay. I've been to a few already.'''

 

Ozzie Guillen, career:

 

OPS: .625

K/BB: 511/.239

EqA: .229

 

I retroactively protest Ozzie's inclusion in all-star festivities. Unless he was there as a manager or coach, in which case, I doubly protest it.

 

Guillen, however, said he is not done campaigning to get Crede on the roster.

 

"It will be one week, and if someone gets hurt, I don't care -- pitcher, catcher, outfielder -- Crede is going,'' Guillen said. "That's the way it's going to be. If anything happens to those 32 guys on the field and they can't make it, Crede is going and I don't care who gets mad.''

 

Mad people will include: Hafner, Giambi, Verlander, Roberts, Bonderman, Robertson, Liriano, Mussina, Schilling.

 

To say nothing of Tremendous, dak, Murbles, Junior, Coach. Even Spinoza might freak a little, and he's a very calm guy.

 

Guillen had said two weeks ago that Contreras likely would be the AL starter, but with the right-hander now scheduled to start on the Sunday before the All-Star Game, Guillen already was coming up with a Plan B. Though Guillen wouldn't confirm it, Detroit Tigers left-hander Kenny Rogers is thought to be the front-runner.

 

Oh my God oh my God oh my God oh my God.

 

Rogers has a 61/25 K/BB ratio and a DIPS ERA over 4.00. Johan Santana is so much effing better than Kenny Rogers it's like they're playing different sports. Liriano is a million times better, and Ozzie won't even put him on the team.

 

Kenny Rogers is 31st in the majors in VORP. And he's going to start an all-star game.

 

While all six of the selections were excited to be going, there seemed to be equally as much sympathy for their teammates who didn't make the team.

 

"The system's flawed,'' Konerko said.

 

Yes it is. Travis Hafner isn't on the team. Nor is Giambi. I'm glad you said it.

 

"I've been on the short end of it before because of the way the voting works out. They try to do it the best way they can, and I'm not sure there's a perfect way to do it.

 

No, there isn't. Deserving people like Mike Mussina and Francisco Liriano don't get to go because Ozzie chose Bobby Jenks, who is fine, but not as good as Mussina or Liriano. This is really mature of you, Paul, to be saying this.

 

"Every year, there's so many guys that do well and there's just so many spots. It's just bad when it happens to somebody close to you or yourself, and that's the case with Joe. The numbers speak for themselves. He should be there."

 

Oh.

 

Just to review, here's how Ozzie would like the 2006 AL All-Star Starting Line-Up to look:

 

C Pierzynski

1B Konerko

2B Iguchi

3B Crede

SS Who Cares

RF Dye

CF Who Cares

LF Who Cares

DH Thome

 

SP Contreras

RP Buehrle

Closer: Jenks

 

http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/2006/07/...zzie-ozzie.html

[witesoxfan]

But it's perfectly fine when any other manager in baseball does it.

 

Guess the f what, it was his team, let him pick who he wants to pick. The AL won, I don't care how ugly it was, the AL won...that's all that matters.

 

 

 

Not attacking the messenger red, thanks for posting...people just piss me off.

[YASNY]

The facts are the facts. Ozzie handles the pitching staff very badly. He leaves starting pitchers in too long too often. Very often, he just leaves them in long enough to get hammered, and then leaves them in for a few batters more. Additionally, his mishandling of the bullpen is well documented.

 

Also, he loves to play bench players so much that we are typically playing with 7/9ths of the regular starting lineup.

 

I can't believe you think his in-game decision making is even decent.

And some managers can make bad pitching worse. Two starts ago, Vazquez starts to get hammered in the 6th. Ozzie leaves him in to take more punishment and allow more runs to score. Vazquez's last start, he again starts to implode in the 6th and Ozzie leaves him in to allow more runs to score, AND start the next inning (allowing two baserunners before finally being pulled). These are just two examples of many, many examples of poor handling of pitchers. Most major league managers aren't that bad.

 

No sir. Those are opinions not facts. I happen to believe they are misguided opinions, but that's just me.

[SoxHawk1980]

No sir. Those are opinions not facts. I happen to believe they are misguided opinions, but that's just me.

No, it is not just you. It is you and some other fans who will support everything Ozzie does because the Sox won the championship last year. For you and your ilk, nothing he does is worthy of criticism. He gets a pass on anything and everything. Everything he does is right because...well because he's Ozzie.

[YASNY]

No, it is not just you. It is you and some other fans who will support everything Ozzie does because the Sox won the championship last year. For you and your ilk, nothing he does is worthy of criticism. He gets a pass on anything and everything. Everything he does is right because...well because he's Ozzie.

 

No. You are entirely incorrect. I'll critcize when and where I think it's warrented. I just happen to believe Ozzie's knows a whole lot more about managing a baseball team than you will ever dream of knowing. Petulance is not flattering.

[Drew]

Okay I'm not saying Ozzie is a bad manager or anything, I think he is great at motivating a team and having them ready to play everyday, as well as adding in the element of suprise every once in a while. However, I don't think his baseball IQ is very high. The last two and a half years I have seen him make countless strategic mistakes, which I thought were crazy b/c he was managing with his "gut." Everytime it seems like he has done this his player has picked him up and gotten the job done, and I've said "Ozzie got lucky on that one." I think this way of manging has now caught up to Ozzie and it is showing in the win column. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

I thought the most recent gross manifestation of this was the use of Scott Podsednik as a pinch hitter and Rob Mackowiak as a pinch runner. Square peg, round hole. Round peg, square hole. He lets some pitchers get scorched, others he doesn't keep in long enough. And then there's the 'let's-give-one-of-the-best-closers-someone-else's-mess-to-clean-up-instead-of-a-fresh-inning' mentality that is totally baffling to me.

 

For a man who managed instinctively last year and paid little mind to pitching matchups, scouting reports, and other curiosa, he is more than making up for it now by ignoring who is swinging the hot stick (to be fair, it's next to nobody these days) for someone by virtue of which side of their helmet the earflap is, even if and is usually the case that player doesn't provide the best chance of winning.

 

I am at the point where I'd love to see how Tim Raines, Harold Baines, or Don Cooper would do managing a single game or series and Ozzie relegated to bench coach. What kind of a message would that send?

[Kyyle23]

No. You are entirely incorrect. I'll critcize when and where I think it's warrented. I just happen to believe Ozzie's knows a whole lot more about managing a baseball team than you will ever dream of knowing. Petulance is not flattering.

 

i have found that SH1980 likes to broadbrush when he meets any sort of resistance or difference of opinion(even in jest). I poked fun at something a week ago and became part of "you and your ilk" very quickly.

[Harry Chappas]

I think Ozzie is not having a very good year. It seems every decision he makes is wrong.

 

First off, why are AJ and Pods basically platoon players? There is an off day tomorrow and a win or two would be nice. He was being a smart ass when he said he hoped someone other than Garland could get a win. We are pretty close to that being the case again. Our only lefty in the lineup had two hits.

 

Pablo Ozuna should not play they outfield, EVER. He should have caught the threee run homer. I was 100 feet away, I know. The attempt to get everyone into the lineup is killing any continuity for the hitters to get into a groove.

 

On the flip side I think the lack of using the bullpen is killing the starters and the bullpen due to lack of work. When was the last time McCarthy or Jenks pitched? Every reliever seems to pitch about once every three days. I think guys are losing the feel in the bullpen. Why can't a starter come out after 5 or 6 innings every other team does it.

 

Ozzie Guillen is becoming like Tony LaRussa in one regard, he knows eveything there is to know about baseball and nobody else knows spiff, just ask him.

[Steff]

i have found that SH1980 likes to broadbrush when he meets any sort of resistance or difference of opinion(even in jest). I poked fun at something a week ago and became part of "you and your ilk" very quickly.

 

 

 

I do believe you assessment is correct.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 26, 2006 -> 03:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it's perfectly fine when any other manager in baseball does it.

 

Guess the f what, it was his team, let him pick who he wants to pick. The AL won, I don't care how ugly it was, the AL won...that's all that matters.

Not attacking the messenger red, thanks for posting...people just piss me off.

I've been a FireJoeMorgan fan for a while now, and as you know, I've never been very high on Ozzie Guillen as a manager.

 

I guess the reason for posting it is to show just how foolish and ignorant Ozzie looks from some of those direct quotes. Although I guess Terry Francona poking fun of how Kevin Youkilis looks in the shower is pretty darn foolish too.

 

[YASNY]

i have found that SH1980 likes to broadbrush when he meets any sort of resistance or difference of opinion(even in jest). I poked fun at something a week ago and became part of "you and your ilk" very quickly.

 

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Not saying exactly how I'll use that info, however. By the way, I love the avitar.