And That's A White Sox Loss

[Frankensteiner]

Actually, McCarthy said it himself. He said it would take about 4 starts to get stretched out.

 

Even if he can only throw 40 ---> 80 pitches in his first 3 starts, there's absolutely nothing stopping us from bringing Vazquez out of the 'pen to face the batting order at least twice and help McCarthy get through those starts. We wouldn't be burning out our bullpen.

[Guest JimH]

Well, considering McCarthy was basically our savior last year, there's some form of precedent there. As we've seen in 2005, the guy has the ability to be a very good starter in this league and is being wasted in the bullpen. There's no certainty there, but I'm willing to gamble on McCarthy outperforming Vaz/Garcia down the stretch, especially given how hard they've been hit throughout the season. So we're gambling with the "unknown" (despite evidence of last year's success) in favor of two "known" spiffty quantities. You tell me which is better.

 

I will tell you which is better when you're in a wild card race. The known quantity, the guy(s) who've proven they can win when it counts, and by that I mean Buehrle and Garcia. Vazquez ... they need to shorten the game for him ... and possibly the others too.

 

Now if one or more of them are hurt, different story.

 

You are right ... there is no certainty, it's a gamble, and it's especially a gamble because again, McCarthy has been far from lights out in his relief role. He hasn't been bad but he hasn't been so lights out that the conclusion can be reached "this guy is clearly a better alternative". And if you talk about 2005 and evidence of success to back your point up, then look no further than Buehrle and Garcia, two guys who succeeded in 2005.

 

As for Vazquez, he has been pretty good and in many cases really good for 5 innings. No, that isn't good enough. I think the solution there is to shorten the game for him. I can understand Guillen wanting to show faith in his players and try to get them over the hump but I think believe that hand is played out. But in the meantime, while Vazquez is a White Sox player, they have to work with him to improve his performance after 5 innings and selectively let him prove himself.

[Flash Tizzle]

Which is exactly the mistake they made IMO. Why did they try to pigeonhole this guy into a reliever slot when he's always been a starter, just to have him on the team. He should be in Charlotte starting and should have been all year. That way he's 100% prepared in case of injury. I can understand why they'd stick with the same starters after a championship and I also understand why they'd get a veteran to help defend the championship. It hasn't worked out great thus far but the season isn't over and I understand why they did it. They should have brought in a reasonably capable long relief guy, let him have the role, and prep McCarthy for starting at Charlotte.

I agree. It was a mistake many observed from the beginning.

 

Problem was, our bullpen -- which everyone identified as a weakness -- needed McCarthy.

[southsideirish71]

Thank god that your stats as a reliever dont exactly translate to your stats as a starter.

 

Francisco Liriano as a reliever this year ERA 3.22 1.39 WHIP

 

Francisco Liriano the starter 1.59 ERA .86 WHIP

 

And now we have

 

Brandon McCarthy as a reliever ERA 3.83 with a 1.23 WHIP

 

 

Surely he cannot best nor crack our stellar allstar rotation. Not with those numbers. Maybe medicore Liriano should of stayed in his bullpen with his less than stellar relief numbers also.

[SoxFanForever]

He's playing favorites with his Latin buddies?

 

The conspiracy theories on this site are getting more and more humorous.

 

I'd like to ask, why is everyone so rock solid certain that Brandon would automatically be lights out as a starter, seeing as he's only been moderately successful in his bullpen role? And not the usual stock answer "well he's better than we have now", I would like to know how people on SoxTalk are able to ascertain with absolute certainty that he'd be better than what's in the rotation now. And no I am not happy with their current results, not one bit. Why is McCarthy the savior though? Sounds like the backup QB syndrome to me.

 

As for what you're so sick of hearing, well, that's the way it goes. There are lots of things I'm sick of hearing too.

2005 McCarthy Post ASB Numbers:

 

Category    W    L    ERA    G    GS    CG    SHO    SV    SVO    INN    H    R    ER    HR    HBP    BB    IBB    SO    SB    CS    PK    BK    WP    AVG
POST ASB    3    1    1.69    7    5    0    0    0    0    42.2    31    8    8    5    1    8    0    31    1    0    0    0    0    .201

 

Good enough reason for me to give him a shot at starting.

[fathom]

I said this before the year, and it's more accurate now than ever before: if the main 5 starting pitchers on this Sox team struggle this year, we're not making the playoffs. McCarthy's not going to get moved into the rotation, end of story. When we acquired Vazquez (and re-signed JG/JC), McCarthy's 2006 season was spoiled.

 

BTW, a handful of McCarthy's great starts last year were against teams that the rest of our pitching staff really struggled against.

[southsideirish71]

I said this before the year, and it's more accurate now than ever before: if the main 5 starting pitchers on this Sox team struggle this year, we're not making the playoffs. McCarthy's not going to get moved into the rotation, end of story. When we acquired Vazquez (and re-signed JG/JC), McCarthy's 2006 season was spoiled.

 

BTW, a handful of McCarthy's great starts last year were against teams that the rest of our pitching staff really struggled against.

 

He 2 hit Boston in Boston and basically did the same thing to Texas in Texas.

[fathom]

He 2 hit Boston in Boston and basically did the same thing to Texas in Texas.

 

Yep, and that was after the rest of our starters got knocked around by them. That Rangers game he won us ended a stretch of terrible games for the Sox.

[Guest JimH]

Considering all you know of Guillen, would it honestly surprise you if he were reluctant to insert McCarthy into the rotation out of concern he may lose the respect of Latin ballplayers? He rather leave in a struggling starter to earn a victory than help his own ballclub earn a victory, yet, this scenario is absurd? We're not talking about Tony LaRussa or Bobby Cox here. It wouldn't suprise me in the least.

I'm not certain in the least. What I know is what's happening right now isn't working. We're tailing into third place rather quickly, and unless a significant trade occurs which immediately improves our ballclub, such changes need to occur within the ballclub. Bullpen failures don't necessarily translate to rotation failures. He rarely uses his curveball, for example, and the feel for a changeup appears nonexistent. I'd rather lose down the stretch with McCarthy in the rotation than Garcia or Vazquez. Even with his mediocre results out of the bullpen.

 

Flash,

 

If Guillen were playing favorites with his "Latin buddies" he'd be fired. Williams and Reinsdorf wouldn't allow it. They simply wouldn't. It's basically implying racism. Yes he's a loose cannon but basically implying favoritism based on race, no I don't buy it for a second.

 

When you say bullpen failures don't necessarily translate into rotation failures, you are right, but that point can be flipped around the other way too.

 

All of this talk of Guillen would rather leave his starter in to get a victory vs. helping his own ballclub earn a victory is IMO nonsense and completely misunderstood. He knows starting pitching is the key to success, he doesn't have to look back too far to figure that out. Starting pitchers pitch best when they're confident, are able to adjust on the fly, and are aggressive and attacking. In order to have confidence, they have to be left in to work through some things. This site hates that philosophy but he is always trying to instill confidence in his players. Always.

 

However ... if after a certain period of time the players do not reward that confidence, he needs to do something about it. Shorten the game for the starters and i think that's exactly what KW is trying to accomplish. Get another good arm in here that can help him do that. Also Guillen and KW launched Politte and Widger so they are not shy about making changes.

[Flash Tizzle]

I will tell you which is better when you're in a wild card race. The known quantity, the guy(s) who've proven they can win when it counts, and by that I mean Buehrle and Garcia. Vazquez ... they need to shorten the game for him ... and possibly the others too.

Buehrle hasn't proven he can win an important game in over a month. That's concern enough for me. He's failed miserably against playoff and non-playoff contenders alike.

 

The myth of "Big Game Freddy" died when 5-7 mph of velocity disappeared from his fastball.

 

To think, last season -- with nearly our entire rotation having career seasons -- we were willing to insert McCarthy into the rotation. Granted, after quite a unsuccessful stretch from Hernandez. Now, with Garland and Contreras seemingly the only starter capable of pitching consecutive, quality outtings, we're holding McCarthy in the bullpen. A bullpen which has dramatically improved since the seasons onset. AND, when you constrast with last years situation, we actually had a division lead. In this instance we're fighting for our survival and still reluctant for change. It's ridiculous, IMO.

[fathom]

If McCarthy would have started all of Vazquez's games this year, we'd have a better record than 11-8. We've scored a ton of runs in those games, and Vazquez's implosions really hurt our chances to win the game.

[Guest JimH]

2005 McCarthy Post ASB Numbers:

 

Category    W    L    ERA    G    GS    CG    SHO    SV    SVO    INN    H    R    ER    HR    HBP    BB    IBB    SO    SB    CS    PK    BK    WP    AVG
POST ASB    3    1    1.69    7    5    0    0    0    0    42.2    31    8    8    5    1    8    0    31    1    0    0    0    0    .201

 

Good enough reason for me to give him a shot at starting.

 

So we are using 40 innings from last year to make a decision this year, ok. Now someone pull up any of the other starters stats from 40 innings when they were going really good last year.

 

The other factor re: Vazquez. Jason made a great observation of how he sometimes struggles with his delivery when runners are on, and Jason also observed improvement during the last start. I don't know where that thread was but it was excellent analysis. I don't believe the White Sox want to have Vazquez coming into a situation where there's runners on, not of his own doing. The adjustment that needs to be made IMO is shortening the game for him, for now.

 

As for the Liriano example, give it a rest. He is clearly a special talent, a special case.

 

To think, last season -- with nearly our entire rotation having career seasons -- we were willing to insert McCarthy into the rotation. Granted, after quite a unsuccessful stretch from Hernandez. Now, with Garland and Contreras seemingly the only starter capable of pitching consecutive, quality outtings, we're holding McCarthy in the bullpen. A bullpen which has dramatically improved since the seasons onset. AND, when you constrast with last years situation, we actually had a division lead. In this instance we're fighting for our survival and still reluctant for change. It's ridiculous, IMO.

 

You seem to forget the reason Brandon was inserted was because El Duque was hurt.

Now if one of these starters needs a breather, which I suspect they do, or they need to be DL'd ... different story. Which is why KW is looking at everything right now in the trade market. I believe Jason when he says they went hard after Dontrelle Willis.

[Flash Tizzle]

All of this talk of Guillen would rather leave his starter in to get a victory vs. helping his own ballclub earn a victory is IMO nonsense and completely misunderstood. He knows starting pitching is the key to success, he doesn't have to look back too far to figure that out. Starting pitchers pitch best when they're confident, are able to adjust on the fly, and are aggressive and attacking. In order to have confidence, they have to be left in to work through some things. This site hates that philosophy but he is always trying to instill confidence in his players. Always.

Misunderstood? Guillen himself has replied, when asked why a starter was left out, that he was attempting to give his starter an opportunity to win. I know this isn't an exact quote, but it isn't a figment of my imagination, either.

 

Concerning yourself with a starters victory total means, in essence, leaving them out one inning more than necessary. This isn't Guillen thinking, "I rather see a 'W' next to Garcia than Jenks," but him disregarding a pitchers fatigue or a team's previous inning success against someone. How many times have we seen Garcia battle though the 6th or 7th inning, just escape, and come out the following inning only to give up a run? All with a rested bullpen. You can call it instilling confidence, I believe it's failing to recognize a game situation.

[southsideirish71]

Misunderstood? Guillen himself has replied, when asked why a starter was left out, that he was attempting to give his starter an opportunity to win. I know this isn't an exact quote, but it isn't a figment of my imagination, either.

 

Concerning yourself with a starters victory total means, in essence, leaving them out one inning more than necessary. This isn't Guillen thinking, "I rather see a 'W' next to Garcia than Jenks," but him disregarding a pitchers fatigue or a team's previous inning success against someone. How many times have we seen Garcia battle though the 6th or 7th inning, just escape, and come out the following inning only to give up a run? All with a rested bullpen. You can call it instilling confidence, I believe it's failing to recognize a game situation.

 

 

Our pen has pitched 253 innings. The lowest in the AL by over 20 innings.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

McCarthy needs to be in the rotation, end of story. The only positive is we get to play Baltimore and KC for six games, we better take at least five.

[southsideirish71]

I saw this little tidbit on another board. I havent researched this to be true, but if it is, then what the hell are we doing .

 

 

We have played 100 games so far. Our opening day lineup has played as a unit in 20 games. We are 17-3 in those games.

[Flash Tizzle]

We have played 100 games so far. Our opening day lineup has played as a unit in 20 games. We are 17-3 in those games.

That can't be right.

 

I knew it was probably a relatively low number , but I wouldn't have guessed 20. I'd say close to 50-60% of games Guillen has had his opening-day lineup.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Dick Allen]

I saw this little tidbit on another board. I havent researched this to be true, but if it is, then what the hell are we doing .

We have played 100 games so far. Our opening day lineup has played as a unit in 20 games. We are 17-3 in those games.

I hate Sunday line-ups but when you're giving up 6,7 or more runs a game, you could have an All Star line-up and get beat. The problem with the White Sox, at least the only one that absolutely has to be fixed or they will be golfing during the playoffs, is the pitching. Of the 5 starters in the greatest rotation in history, only Contreras has been effective the entire year. The other 4 have been as horrible as can be for very long stretches this year. The Sox are almost lucky to be where they are in the standings right now with how the pitching staff has performed. Maybe the innings have finally taken a toll, maybe last season's luck has given out. It seems the opposition isn't missing any White Sox pitcher's meatballs this season. Last year they may pop up a meatball, hit a shot right at somebody or hit a hard grounder for a double play. This year those balls are into the gaps and over the fence.

[southsideirish71]

That can't be right.

 

I know it's probably a high number, but I wouldn't have guessed 80. I'd say close to 50-60% of games Guillen has had his opening-day lineup.

 

 

How many games do you see the entire starting lineup without one sub come into.

 

Maybe 1 time in the last week or so. The number might not be that far off.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Against Silva and his almost 7 ERA, we scratched 3 runs.

 

And then Gardenhire got him out of there. Kind of like Ozzie doesn't do with Vazquez.

[Dick Allen]

And then Gardenhire got him out of there. Kind of like Ozzie doesn't do with Vazquez.

Ozzie's been owned when it comes to handling the pitching staff the last few series. Maybe he'll learn something. I know its a lefty/lefty match-up and Cuddyer took Buerhle deep in the first, but I still don't understand walking a guy to get to Morneau. A guy hitting .375 since the All Star break, and a guy who hits the ball 9 miles.

[Kalapse]

That can't be right.

 

I knew it was probably a relatively low number , but I wouldn't have guessed 20. I'd say close to 50-60% of games Guillen has had his opening-day lineup.

It actually sounds about right. You have to remember Mackowiak has started 44 of 100 games (38 CF, 6 RF), Cintron 40 of 100 games (19 SS, 16 2B, 5 3B), Ozuna 23 of 100 games (18 LF, 3 3B, 2 2B), Widger 21 of 100 games (all at C), Gload 11 of 100 (6 RF, 5 1B), Alomar 1 of 100 games. So . . .

 

PERCENTAGE OF SUBS:

C: 22%

1B: 5%

2B: 18% (brief injury)

3B: 8% (incredibly brief injury)

SS: 19% (brief injury)

LF: 18%

CF: 38%

RF: 12% (brief injury)

 

. . . also I'm not even taking into account DH, which I know Gload and Cintron have started at this year. Also Thome at 1B in the NL was not taken into account either.

[Flash Tizzle]

How many games do you see the entire starting lineup without one sub come into.

 

Maybe 1 time in the last week or so. The number might not be that far off.

Wow, my perception must be off because those numbers are probably right on.

 

In the last ten games alone only two have featured the opening day lineup.

 

Although, even with this knowledge, I can't honestly fault Guillen for how he currently assembles his lineup. His reluctant to play Anderson -- once a peeve of mine -- has diminished quite a bit. Yes, certain matchups against a pitcher have been strange, but our bench is relatively deep. Or atleast it appeared so until this recent slump. Guillen can't help but tinker.

 

Our offense is the highest scoring in the league. If we're breaking down blame for our slump/choke, over 60% has to be on the starting pitching. It's supposed to be a foundation for success, and therefore, expected to compensate for a 3-4 run run output.

 

The dominance of the opening day squad may also be due to past success against a pitcher warranting the lineup, a favorable matchup against a mediocre pitcher, or happening to be together with Contreras. Hundreds of intangibles can factor in. If you think about it, most tough pitchers we face there's usually one or two regulars substituted. Podsednik will probably sit out against Santana/Liriano (which are automatic losses), and Anderson against a tough RH. Losses are reduced right there.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Friend of Nordhagen]

I saw this little tidbit on another board. I havent researched this to be true, but if it is, then what the hell are we doing .

We have played 100 games so far. Our opening day lineup has played as a unit in 20 games. We are 17-3 in those games.

 

But we'll be fresh for October.

[OldSox2]

The White Sox is dead in'06.