Sox SP Turnaround?

[RME JICO]

The Sox are 2-10 in their 12 games after the All-Star break, 12 games is not a collapse. There are still 62 games left.

 

62 games. So if you look back 62 games to see how much can change, here are the records from May 16th:

 

Sox 25-13

Tigers 25-13

Twins 17-22

 

The Twins had stretches of 3-12, 2-7, and 2-6, and look where they are now. I am not counting anyone out until after Labor Day. I have a feeling that things will be very tight in the Division come Labor Day.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Sox are 2-10 in their 12 games after the All-Star break, 12 games is not a collapse. There are still 62 games left.

 

62 games. So if you look back 62 games to see how much can change, here are the records from May 16th:

 

Sox 25-13

Tigers 25-13

Twins 17-22

 

The Twins had stretches of 3-12, 2-7, and 2-6, and look where they are now. I am not counting anyone out until after Labor Day. I have a feeling that things will be very tight in the Division come Labor Day.

 

Oh, yeah, I'm by no means giving up on the season. That would be foolish. The talent is there. Guys just need to start earing their money.

[RME JICO]

Oh, yeah, I'm by no means giving up on the season. That would be foolish. The talent is there. Guys just need to start earing their money.

Sorry, the original quote didn't go thru. I was replying to Harry's comment about a collapse.

 

I agree with you, the players are not playing up to their potential. The starting pitching really needs to come around.

Edited July 27, 2006 by RME JICO

[Controlled Chaos]

this is a collapse. not a slump. why do you think we will win the wildcard? someone gimmie some facts and not just "because" or "i hope so"

Why don't you stop posting, stop following the Sox and come back next year? I mean really....why the hell even come here if they suck so bad and the season is over. If it's just to tell everyone they suck and the season is over....save it. The people that agree with you don't need to hear it and the people that disagree don't want to hear it.

[LosMediasBlancas]

At the start of the year everyone on this board had a hard on for our rotation. Suddenly, because we've had three horrible, horrible weeks, this rotation sux? Take a look at the names again:

 

Mark Buehrle

Jose Contreras

Freddy Garcia

Jon Garland

Javy Vazquez

(B Mac)

 

I look at these five names and given their history I trust that we have a better chance waiting for these guys to turn it around than we do making any (reasonable) trades.

If they don't improve and end up at home in October, I'll still feel the same way.

[Steff]

we're going to be overtaken by toronto pretty soon. it's over.

 

 

When we are, will you go away?

[Flash Tizzle]

Why don't you stop posting, stop following the Sox and come back next year? I mean really....why the hell even come here if they suck so bad and the season is over. If it's just to tell everyone they suck and the season is over....save it. The people that agree with you don't need to hear it and the people that disagree don't want to hear it.

This post is something I'd expect from one of the many lonely, middle-aged admins/moderators on WSI to suggest.

 

this is a collapse. not a slump. why do you think we will win the wildcard? someone gimmie some facts and not just "because" or "i hope so"

 

All he was asking for were facts to support a belief, of some, the team will rebound.

 

And even if he did believe this team "sucks so bad" or the "season is over," does that mean he should immediately leave the board so you can live in the land of fluffy clouds and sunshine? Is pessimism any worse than blind optimism? Any worse than someone cheerleading their club and insisting we all "not give up hope" because, well, THEY HAVE TALENT. Or, because last years team went through a similar slump and rebounded, so don't give up! I don't know how anyone can fault someone for doubting this team. Its supposed core, starting pitching, has been horrendous aside from two pitchers. Sort of a problem when 60% of our VAUNTED pitching staff have ERAs hovering around 5.00.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[Steff]

This post is something I'd expect from one of the many lonely, middle-aged admins/moderators on WSI to suggest.

 

 

 

GMAFB. The repetition gets old, and it's setting people off because we are losing. Maybe you need to be told 5,861 times the same thing to get it, but most here don't, and that's all CC was saying.

 

If you see a positive thread, and you are not positive, STAY OUT OF IT as not to ruin it for those that do remain hopeful.

 

Not so hard. For most...

[Hangar18]

this is not a slump. it's a total and complete collapse. and never compare any year to last year. we had a double digit lead when we had our problems and STILL almost lost it. now we have no lead and there is NO SIGN that any turnaround is coming.

 

gimmie white flag pt 3 and get some young HUNGRY all around players in here

 

This is Total Collapse Pt.2 However, there were signs as early as May that the SOX needed to change things around, things couldnt continue if they expected to win. Everyone (including SOX) thought well HEY, if were not playing our best ball, and still in 2nd place, everything must be All Good. Well, that thinking has got us in a very bad hole. Can the SP turn it around? Thanks to Ozzies Mismanagement,

a couple of our pitchers egos are deflated. Heres what he can do. Garland and Contreras are doing great. Keep it up. Im seeing signs from Freddy. He has to be shortleashed. Buehrle and Vazquez?

MB is hurt, I dont care what he says. He is hurt, I repeat, he is hurt, nobody goes this bad this fast.

hes got like a 14.00 era I believe in his last 5 starts? BRUTAL.

 

Insert McCarthy into rotation effective IMMEDIATELY. Give Buerhle 15 days on the DL. Vazquez. SHORT LEASH. Only pitches 5 innings max. if SOX have huge lead .....he goes an extra inning til he puts a man on ......

[Guest JimH]

This post is something I'd expect from one of the many lonely, middle-aged admins/moderators on WSI to suggest.

All he was asking for were facts to support a belief, of some, the team will rebound.

 

And even if he did believe this team "sucks so bad" or the "season is over," does that mean he should immediately leave the board so you can live in the land of fluffy clouds and sunshine? Is pessimism any worse than blind optimism? Any worse than someone cheerleading their club and insisting we all "not give up hope" because, well, THEY HAVE TALENT. Or, because last years team went through a similar slump and rebounded, so don't give up! I don't know how anyone can fault someone for doubting this team. Its supposed core, starting pitching, has been horrendous aside from two pitchers. Sort of a problem when 60% of our VAUNTED pitching staff have ERAs hovering around 5.00.

 

There are no facts that support the team will rebound Flash, just like there are no facts McCarthy would do a better job in the rotation than Vazquez or Garcia.

 

Saying "they have talent" is a common sense reasonable belief that this team will play better. Will it happen, who knows? The last roughly 20 games have been bad. It'll be as much about mental fortitude as anything. I certainly hope the players have more belief than many on this board.

 

 

 

Thanks to Ozzies Mismanagement, a couple of our pitchers egos are deflated.

 

Buehrle's and Vazquez's confidence is wavering, it's not anything the manager has done though, it's their own poor execution and bad pitching. If anything, Guillen has tried to enhance their confidence by showing faith in them. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

 

I do agree with you that a 15 day DL stint might not be the worst idea for Buehrle and possibly Garcia.

[DBAHO]

Buehrle's and Vazquez's confidence is wavering, it's not anything the manager has done though, it's their own poor execution and bad pitching. If anything, Guillen has tried to enhance their confidence by showing faith in them. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

 

I do agree with you that a 15 day DL stint might not be the worst idea for Buehrle and possibly Garcia.

How do you think Vazquez would feel if Ozzie started pulling him out about 5 innings for every game for the rest of this season? All of a sudden he'll get this reputation around the league, and his trade value would decrease I would say.

 

Like you said Jim, Ozzie is putting faith in him to get the job done, now it's time for Javy to repay the faith.

[Hangar18]

This post is something I'd expect from one of the many lonely, middle-aged admins/moderators on WSI to suggest.

All he was asking for were facts to support a belief, of some, the team will rebound.

 

And even if he did believe this team "sucks so bad" or the "season is over," does that mean he should immediately leave the board so you can live in the land of fluffy clouds and sunshine? Is pessimism any worse than blind optimism? Any worse than someone cheerleading their club and insisting we all "not give up hope" because, well, THEY HAVE TALENT. Or, because last years team went through a similar slump and rebounded, so don't give up! I don't know how anyone can fault someone for doubting this team. Its supposed core, starting pitching, has been horrendous aside from two pitchers. Sort of a problem when 60% of our VAUNTED pitching staff have ERAs hovering around 5.00.

 

 

I dont have a problem with either of the posts. But I think we need to stop telling others that things are Fluffy Cloud like, and that its not cool to be pessimistic about this team. Thats foolishness and very northside-esque. The WSI comment is bad, heh hheh heh hehe heh heheh heh heheh.

[Guest JimH]

I dont have a problem with either of the posts. But I think we need to stop telling others that things are Fluffy Cloud like, and that its not cool to be pessimistic about this team. Thats foolishness and very northside-esque. The WSI comment is bad, heh hheh heh hehe heh heheh heh heheh.

 

Well Hangar, the flip side of that is, I think we need to stop telling others:

 

- sweeping generalizations about how Sox fans are "supposed" to be defined,

 

- sweeping generaliztions about what's northside-esque,

 

- how mean and evil and rotten some other website is, etc.

[Hangar18]

There are no facts that support the team will rebound Flash, just like there are no facts McCarthy would do a better job in the rotation than Vazquez or Garcia.

 

I do agree with you that a 15 day DL stint might not be the worst idea for Buehrle and possibly Garcia.

 

One thing is for sure. The SOX have put themselves at the bottom of the pile. Teams rarely comeback after being on the bottom of the pile. For the SOX to make the Miracle Comeback, they are going to Slowly but Surely start to get confidence back in a couple guys. Even a 5 inning, 1 ER performance No Decision by Vazquez will go light-years in helping his confidence. Just like the SOX SLOWLY but surely got bad starting in May, theyre going to have to Slowly but surely do the little things to win games right now.

 

this is no guarantee of course, but if we do this, and get a Little Luck (luck is everything sometimes) down the stretch, maybe just maybe were in position to get in the playoffs again. To continue what were doing now is foolhardy and we'll be .500 by September.

 

How do you think Vazquez would feel if Ozzie started pulling him out about 5 innings for every game for the rest of this season? All of a sudden he'll get this reputation around the league, and his trade value would decrease I would say.

 

Like you said Jim, Ozzie is putting faith in him to get the job done, now it's time for Javy to repay the faith.

 

 

Hey, if it works, and we start winning, even Javy would be happy.

[DBAHO]

Teams rarely comeback after being on the bottom of the pile.

Well they certainly did last season when Cleveland almost caught up to them, hence why no-one IMHO should be giving up on this team at all.

[Gregory Pratt]

Unless there's something physically wrong with Mark, I'm sure he'll turn it around sooner rather than later.

 

Javier Vazquez? I don't have faith that he'll turn anything around. He's a nut.

 

Freddy Garcia doesn't have a fastball anymore. He'll get lucky, but that's it.

 

Garland? I expect regression, to a point. Pre-eight starts in 2005, he was always an average starter. Now, for awhile this year, and awhile last year, he holds teams down like an Ace. His pitching is dependent on control, and no one can be as pinpoint forever as he's been for the last month and for a couple in 2005.

 

Contreras? He's the real deal, and he'll be fine. He's doing just fine.

[Hangar18]

Well they certainly did last season when Cleveland almost caught up to them, hence why no-one IMHO should be giving up on this team at all.

 

 

yeah, but the SOX had a humoungous lead, and Cleveland had to play like .800 ball the rest of the way to catch us. They nearly did it. That and the fact that the Twinks/Tigers/Royals were non-factors.

The Twinks are in this thing now, and I said the TWINKS are going to determine who wins this division.

Theyve answered 1/2 the question by SWEEPING US, if they lay down against the Tigers, we know

who the division winner is. The SOX have to start Sweeping people and running off 15 of 18 if they want to get back in this. The Bullpen is going to have to shoulder alot of this burden the next few weeks.

 

That Yankee series was so important, because us laying down in NY set up the Sox-must-sweep-Tigers to regain what they lost scenario. Yeah, your right you cant write anyone off but the SOX have allowed too many other variables to enter the equation now.

[DBAHO]

yeah, but the SOX had a humoungous lead, and Cleveland had to play like .800 ball the rest of the way to catch us. They nearly did it. That and the fact that the Twinks/Tigers/Royals were non-factors.

The Twinks are in this thing now, and I said the TWINKS are going to determine who wins this division.

Theyve answered 1/2 the question by SWEEPING US, if they lay down against the Tigers, we know

who the division winner is. The SOX have to start Sweeping people and running off 15 of 18 if they want to get back in this. The Bullpen is going to have to shoulder alot of this burden the next few weeks.

 

That Yankee series was so important, because us laying down in NY set up the Sox-must-sweep-Tigers to regain what they lost scenario. Yeah, your right you cant write anyone off but the SOX have allowed too many other variables to enter the equation now.

We had a 15 game lead at about August 1 right (correct me if I'm wrong with the date there).

 

The Tribe went 19 - 8 in August and 19 - 8 in September, totalling 38-16 for those 2 months, that's about .700 ball right?

 

And no I don't think we have to win 15 of our next 18 to win this wild card. So long as we play +.500 ball in that series, we'll still have a fairly good chance of getting a wild card spot. The Twins can't keep playing as good as they have recently for the rest of the season.

[Dick Allen]

Of course the season is not over. Minnesota is bound to cool off, Detroit should as well. The Yankees could be a problem especially if the Sox are playing for the wild card. You know they are going to pick someone up soon. The White Sox problem is that despite the names, the starting rotation is very overrated. Garcia is not the Garcia of the past. Buerhle has been in a slump before, but never has been pounded as consistently as he has. Vazquez was brutal in the AL before, and that pattern seems to be repeating itself. Garland was horrible, now he's been great. He probably will eventually fall in between the two, and Contreras has been the man despite losing 3 in a row. You hear Zito, but I don't see that happening, especially because KW has gone on record both with the media and personally to McCarthy that he isn't going anywhere, and I don't see why a team fighting for the playoffs would trade their ace and not get back the Sox best young pitcher. Its one thing to say he's not going to trade a minor leaguer, its another to say he's not going to trade a major leaguer, and tell that major leaguer he isn't going anywhere. If he dealt McCarthy, what he tells players and to a lesser extent, the media, couldn't be trusted anymore.

[BigSqwert]

The Twins can't keep playing as good as they have recently for the rest of the season.

Why not? That's all I kept hearing about the Tigers for the first 3 months.

[Frankensteiner]

Buehrle seems like the best candidate to improve but I also thought that 2 starts ago and nothing's happened there. I am getting concerned, particularly when Buehrle himself says he's getting hit hard even after hitting his spots. Garcia and Vazquez are both done. I haven't heard too many cases of pitchers regaining their stuff halfway through August so I'm inclined to believe "Flamethrower Freddy" will continue to get killed throughout the season. Vazquez has been bad now for about 2 and a half seasons. As such, I'm not expecting any improvement there.

 

We need to upgrade at least one rotation spot. This can mean acquiring someone like Zito, or something simple like putting McCarthy into the rotation. We'll see what happens and whether or not Kenny and Ozzie are truly interested in winning, or if they're more concerned about not hurting anyone's feelings.

[Hangar18]

And no I don't think we have to win 15 of our next 18 to win this wild card. So long as we play +.500 ball in that series, we'll still have a fairly good chance of getting a wild card spot. The Twins can't keep playing as good as they have recently for the rest of the season.

 

If it wasnt .800 ball (and .700) thats still pretty dang good. It felt like 1.000 at times. The SOX cannot keep thinking that the "Twinks cant stay hot" or "Tigers have to cool off sooner or later". To me,

the Tigers didnt play well in the KC series before, and in our series. But they still managed 3 of 4 from KC and 2 of 3 from US. Your right, the Tigers cant play this well all year, but they keep winning despite.

[Flash Tizzle]

GMAFB. The repetition gets old, and it's setting people off because we are losing. Maybe you need to be told 5,861 times the same thing to get it, but most here don't, and that's all CC was saying.

 

If you see a positive thread, and you are not positive, STAY OUT OF IT as not to ruin it for those that do remain hopeful.

 

Not so hard. For most...

Honestly, what are we supposed to talk about during this post ASB slump? Messages of doubt are repetitive because this team is losing.........repeatively. We all can't hold Jphat's view of the baseball world.

 

CC's post may have actually made sense if it were directed towards a post where the entire season were in doubt. Instead, a statement was made of an apparent collapse (which, considering how far we've fallen lately, can't be dismissed) and a question of why we should be optimistic of our playoff chances.

 

And your last sentence doesn't apply to this thread. Original poster wrote his opinion and asked for ours. Honestly, it's not even practical. How would legitimate discussions arise? People can't avoid issues they oppose that easily. Even on an internet message board. If someone titles their thread, "THIS TEAM IS DONE," and it's obviously negative in tone, are those who disagree with their assessment not allowed in? That's the way it was seem from your little rule. If I would have to stay out of a positive thread as not to ruin for those hopeful, shouldn't you (among others) have to stay out of negative threads? Don't want to ruin the negativity for those who don't believe a comeback is possible, right? You should know it doesn't work like that. There's a reason you've told people 5,533,234,322,000 times.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Hey if the Twins and Tigers continue to play .800 ball, THEY DESERVE THE DIVISION and I'll tip my hat to them and hold my head high. Not many teams will catch teams that are playing that well.

[Steff]

Honestly, what are we supposed to talk about during this post ASB slump? Messages of doubt are repetitive because this team is losing.........repeatively. We all can't hold Jphat's view of the baseball world.

 

CC's post may have actually made sense if it were directed towards a post where the entire season were in doubt. Instead, a statement was made of an apparent collapse (which, considering how far we've fallen lately, can't be dismissed) and a question of why we should be optimistic of our playoff chances.

 

And your last sentence doesn't apply to this thread. Original poster wrote his opinion and asked for ours. Honestly, it's not even practical. How would legitimate discussions arise? People can't avoid issues they oppose that easily. Even on an internet message board. If someone titles their thread, "THIS TEAM IS DONE," and it's obviously negative in tone, are those who disagree with their assessment not allowed in? That's the way it was seem from your little rule. If I would have to stay out of a positive thread as not to ruin for those hopeful, shouldn't you (among others) have to stay out of negative threads? Don't want to ruin the negativity for those who don't believe a comeback is possible, right? You should know it doesn't work like that. There's a reason you've told people 5,533,234,322,000 times.

 

 

 

Harry has (guestimating) 58 posts in the past 2 days saying the same thing. I do believe that's why CC said what he did to him. I said something similar about him "going away" in a separate thread. Legit conversation is all over this site. Intelligent debate about the troubles. "This team sucks ass and if we don't win the next series we are done...." is not intelligent conversation. Of course anyone is allowed anywhere and to post whatever they choose. However, if the intent is to come into a thread to spiff on others being optimestic - which IMO is instigating trouble - don't be surprised when you get told to shut up. I don't make the dumb ass mistake of going into threads I don't agree with to spiff on others.... food for thought.

 

5,533,234,323 times now....