Vazquez saying the right things

[beck72]

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/ds.../pro/291sd3.htm

 

Vazquez does get a lot of flak for having so much talent and yet getting such mediocre results. But Javy deserves some praise for his comments in today's Southtown. With Javy it seems it's a mental issue with him [whether it's lack of confidence, losing focus, being passive, who knows]. But Javy's saying he is glad Ozzie's showing confidence in him does shows that he gets it. Other manager's might not be so easy on him--Torre wasn't. Nothing should be given to him--whether it's the manager's confidence, a spot in the rotation-he needs to earn it based on his performance.

 

I also like the way he's talking about just concentrating on helping the sox win, and get to the playoffs. That should be his main concern. Forget about the ERA, just get the "W". Good for Javy. Maybe it's just telling the media what they want to hear, or giving the tired old cliches. But him saying the right things is a very good sign, esp. when Javy is struggling the most he's had all year. The sox need him to get through his issues. IMO, there is no physical reason holding him back.

[RME JICO]

Lets just hope that translates to on-field performance. I hope it does.

 

It just seems like it is really good timing with the trading deadline looming. I guess he has one more shot on Sunday to let his arm do the talking.

 

The best part is that Ozzie is going to pull him and Buehrle a lot quicker at the first sign of trouble. That is a huge relief.

[DBAHO]

I just see a lot of comparisons b/w Javy and Jose Contreras when he first arrived on the Southside.

 

Javy's just gotta learn not to use than DAMN curveball so much (because when he hangs it, you can say buh - bye), and to start trusting his better stuff like his changeball.

 

And that was always the problem with Jose, getting him to trust his fastball, and not use his forkball so often early in the count, so he'd then fall behind hitters.

 

But if Javy doesn't turn it around, we're gonna regret that trade, because of one Chris Young.

[beck72]

Lets just hope that translates to on-field performance. I hope it does.

 

It just seems like it is really good timing with the trading deadline looming. I guess he has one more shot on Sunday to let his arm do the talking.

 

The best part is that Ozzie is going to pull him and Buehrle a lot quicker at the first sign of trouble. That is a huge relief.

 

Javy isn't going anywhere. If he continues his mediocre pitching, then in the offseason he could be gone. But he'll be around this yr

 

And Ozzie should be looking to take these guys out the first sign of trouble. The Sox aren't in the position [a 10 game lead or something] to let these guys work out their problems on the mound. The bullpen IIRC still has pitched the fewest innings in the AL. Get the pen in the games to stop potential blowout innings

 

I just see a lot of comparisons b/w Javy and Jose Contreras when he first arrived on the Southside.

 

Javy's just gotta learn not to use than DAMN curveball so much (because when he hangs it, you can say buh - bye), and to start trusting his better stuff like his changeball.

 

And that was always the problem with Jose, getting him to trust his fastball, and not use his forkball so often early in the count, so he'd then fall behind hitters.

 

But if Javy doesn't turn it around, we're gonna regret that trade, because of one Chris Young.

 

I agree 100%. Both Jose and Javy have dominating stuff. It's learning how to use it.

 

Javy gets in trouble when he starts trying to trick hitters, with less than his best stuff. It's one thing getting hurt by a good fastball. It's another watching a hanging breaking ball go over the fence.

 

I think Javy has a good chance putting it all together. It took Jose into his mid-30's to harness his stuff. Javy has always had his control, unlike Jose.

[Reddy]

I just see a lot of comparisons b/w Javy and Jose Contreras when he first arrived on the Southside.

 

Javy's just gotta learn not to use than DAMN curveball so much (because when he hangs it, you can say buh - bye), and to start trusting his better stuff like his changeball.

 

And that was always the problem with Jose, getting him to trust his fastball, and not use his forkball so often early in the count, so he'd then fall behind hitters.

 

But if Javy doesn't turn it around, we're gonna regret that trade, because of one Chris Young.

 

i completely agree with you.

 

but changeball??

[GoSox05]

Javy sounds pissed at himself. He sounds fired up. I think he is still gonna have a big second half. I hope he stops using his curve ball somuch.

 

I liked that he didnt try to blame anyone else. He"s being a man about it and owning up to it.

[Dick Allen]

Vazquez has always been a competitior,and with his talent, the results don't add up. He's saying the right things, but I'm not convinced he's going to turn it around. He's pitching like he usually has during his career. It is a shame that he'll be missing the Royals though. He does pitch well against them. IMO, JV= KW's biggest bust. They were expecting so much more out of this guy, and what they got was a fifth starter. An extremely highly paid fifth starter which cost the Sox perhaps their finest prospect. Maybe their finest prospect in a while.

[beck72]

Vazquez has always been a competitior,and with his talent, the results don't add up. He's saying the right things, but I'm not convinced he's going to turn it around. He's pitching like he usually has during his career. It is a shame that he'll be missing the Royals though. He does pitch well against them. IMO, JV= KW's biggest bust. They were expecting so much more out of this guy, and what they got was a fifth starter. An extremely highly paid fifth starter which cost the Sox perhaps their finest prospect. Maybe their finest prospect in a while.

It's way, way, way too soon to be saying that. The sox have had him for four + months. How long did it take Garland to pitch with confidence? Jose it took 1 1/2 yrs. With other teams paying parts of his salary, Javy's contract is affordable. Instead of overpaying on the FA market for guys like Loaiza, Burnett, Washburn [all guys available after 2005], Javy's not doing that poorly in comparison, and has a better upside than them.

 

Plus you have to wait 5, 10 yrs to see what Young does in his career.

[tealeafreaderii]

With other teams paying parts of his salary, Javy's contract is affordable. Instead of overpaying on the FA market for guys like Loaiza, Burnett, Washburn [all guys available after 2005], Javy's not doing that poorly in comparison, and has a better upside than them.

 

could you imagine if he got Kenny Rogers instead? That would have been a coup de gras... get a really strong lefty and at the same time deprive the Tigers of the man who has been there heart and soul...

 

meh... hindsight is 20/20

[shoota]

I just see a lot of comparisons b/w Javy and Jose Contreras when he first arrived on the Southside.

 

Javy's just gotta learn not to use than DAMN curveball so much (because when he hangs it, you can say buh - bye), and to start trusting his better stuff like his changeball.

 

And that was always the problem with Jose, getting him to trust his fastball, and not use his forkball so often early in the count, so he'd then fall behind hitters.

 

But if Javy doesn't turn it around, we're gonna regret that trade, because of one Chris Young.

 

Contreras had a history of dominating before coming to the White Sox that Vazquez never had.

[DBAHO]

Contreras had a history of dominating before coming to the White Sox that Vazquez never had.

In Cuba. The MLB is a whole different ballgame.

 

This is Contreras from 2004 and the 1st half of 2005;

2004 (NYY) - 8-5, 5.64 ERA, 82K's, 42BB's.

2004 (CHW) - 5-4, 5.30 ERA, 68K's, 42BB's.

2005 (1st half CHW) - 4-5, 4.26 ERA, 72K's, 48BB's.

 

And Vazquez put up 3 sub 4ERA's for the Expos from 2001 to 2003. Ever since he left them, he hasn't been the same. But he's got the potential to that get back to those type of numbers, if he uses his stuff better and makes the right decisions on the mound.

[Jake]

In Cuba. The MLB is a whole different ballgame.

 

This is Contreras from 2004 and the 1st half of 2005;

2004 (NYY) - 8-5, 5.64 ERA, 82K's, 42BB's.

2004 (CHW) - 5-4, 5.30 ERA, 68K's, 42BB's.

2005 (1st half CHW) - 4-5, 4.26 ERA, 72K's, 48BB's.

 

And Vazquez put up 3 sub 4ERA's for the Expos from 2001 to 2003. Ever since he left them, he hasn't been the same. But he's got the potential to that get back to those type of numbers, if he uses his stuff better and makes the right decisions on the mound.

 

Vazquez still hasn't ever dominated. Returning to mediocrity would be a nice step, but he's never achieved anything near his limitless potential, which is one of the sadnesses of sport.

[Leonard Zelig]

In Cuba. The MLB is a whole different ballgame.

 

Who are the guys in your sig?

[DBAHO]

Who are the guys in your sig?

IIRC there's B-Mac, Gio Gonzalez, Liotta, Broadway and Haigwood.

 

To say it needs updating is an understatement.

 

Vazquez still hasn't ever dominated. Returning to mediocrity would be a nice step, but he's never achieved anything near his limitless potential, which is one of the sadnesses of sport.

I would say what he did from 01-03 is pretty close to dominating, especially when you can throw over 220+IP for those 3 seasons and average over 200 K's for those seasons.

 

Not saying he's going to get back to that, but it shows what he's capable of when he's on and doing everything right.

[shoota]

In Cuba. The MLB is a whole different ballgame.

 

This is Contreras from 2004 and the 1st half of 2005;

2004 (NYY) - 8-5, 5.64 ERA, 82K's, 42BB's.

2004 (CHW) - 5-4, 5.30 ERA, 68K's, 42BB's.

2005 (1st half CHW) - 4-5, 4.26 ERA, 72K's, 48BB's.

 

And Vazquez put up 3 sub 4ERA's for the Expos from 2001 to 2003. Ever since he left them, he hasn't been the same. But he's got the potential to that get back to those type of numbers, if he uses his stuff better and makes the right decisions on the mound.

 

I'm not sure what the accepted rule of thumb for adjusting NL stats to AL numbers, but that's something that needs to be converted before calling his sub-4 NL eras "dominant."

 

His three NL seasons of sub-4 eras are: 3.42, 3.91 and 3.24.

 

In Contreras's final year pitching in Cuba, he had an era of 1.76

 

I conclude Contreras was a better pitcher than Vazquez before his breakout 2005 season, and therefore comparisons to Contreras are baseless.

Edited July 30, 2006 by shoota

[Jake]

I would say what he did from 01-03 is pretty close to dominating, especially when you can throw over 220+IP for those 3 seasons and average over 200 K's for those seasons.

 

Not saying he's going to get back to that, but it shows what he's capable of when he's on and doing everything right.

 

As far as I know, the big inning has always been his problem. Just moreso this year, with no dominating starts in between.

[DBAHO]

As far as I know, the big inning has always been his problem. Just moreso this year, with no dominating starts in between.

Just like Jon Garland in 2004 really isn't it. Hopefully we can see the same improvement in Javy that we saw with JG in 2005.

[Milkman delivers]

Vazquez pitched in a pretty big park in a division that, for years, only had one good team (the Braves). Oh, and in the NL. He had no pressure on him, and he was in a pretty good position to succeed, IMO.

 

Comparing Vazquez to Contreras is almost a slap in the face of the Count.

[Leonard Zelig]

I'm not sure what the accepted rule of thumb for adjusting NL stats to AL numbers, but that's something that needs to be converted before calling his sub-4 NL eras "dominant."

 

 

I think I read on here last year that you can add .90 to an NL pitchers ERA to adjust it for AL. I'm not sure how accurate that is though.

[Milkman delivers]

Just like Jon Garland in 2004 really isn't it. Hopefully we can see the same improvement in Javy that we saw with JG in 2005.

 

It's not like Garland was about 7 years younger at that point than Vazquez is now.

[Dick Allen]

Just like Jon Garland in 2004 really isn't it. Hopefully we can see the same improvement in Javy that we saw with JG in 2005.

The one big difference is Garland was a 25 year old in 2005. Vazquez is a grizzled veteran, who really wanted no part of the AL after his experience with the Yankees. Ozzie talked him into it, although he really had no choice. I don't like his chances of suddenly being dominant. Hopefully he can win a big game or 2, and win a game win the Sox don't score a lot of runs, but there is just something about him that doesn't seem to click. Its not his effort, he does give it all he has, and is a competitor. If he wasn't the umpires calls wouldn't upset him at all. Ditch the curveball, and see what happens. Ozzie needs to have a lefty and righty ready in the bullpen as soon as the opposition is ready to go through the order for the third time, and needs to be at the top step. The very first sign of trouble, Vazquez has to hit the showers. See if that works.

[shoota]

I think I read on here last year that you can add .90 to an NL pitchers ERA to adjust it for AL. I'm not sure how accurate that is though.

 

Using that formula, Vazquez's three best seasons would translate to AL eras of: 4.32, 4.81 and 4.14.

 

I determine that Javier Vazquez's history in no way suggests he will become a dominant, ace pitcher like Jose Contreras.

Edited July 30, 2006 by shoota

[Milkman delivers]

The one big difference is Garland was a 25 year old in 2005. Vazquez is a grizzled veteran, who really wanted no part of the AL after his experience with the Yankees. Ozzie talked him into it, although he really had no choice. I don't like his chances of suddenly being dominant. Hopefully he can win a big game or 2, and win a game win the Sox don't score a lot of runs, but there is just something about him that doesn't seem to click. Its not his effort, he does give it all he has, and is a competitor. If he wasn't the umpires calls wouldn't upset him at all. Ditch the curveball, and see what happens. Ozzie needs to have a lefty and righty ready in the bullpen as soon as the opposition is ready to go through the order for the third time, and needs to be at the top step. The very first sign of trouble, Vazquez has to hit the showers. See if that works.

 

No way. Vazquez has the mindset of a six-year-old girl. If you take him out early, it ruins his confidence and self-esteem.

 

EDIT: Wait, the part about his mindset doesn't need to be green. Please ignore that part.

Edited July 30, 2006 by Milkman delivers

[DBAHO]

Using that formula, Vazquez's three best seasons would translate to AL eras of: 4.32, 4.81 and 4.14.

 

I determine that Javier Vazquez's history in no way suggests he will become a dominant, ace pitcher like Jose Contreras.

Vazquez also had an ERA+ of 135 in 01, 106 in 02 and 154 in 03.

 

For comparisons sake, Contreras had a ERA+ of 122 in 2005, and 132 so far this season.

 

Looks pretty similar there to me.

[shoota]

Vazquez also had an ERA+ of 135 in 01, 106 in 02 and 154 in 03.

 

For comparisons sake, Contreras had a ERA+ of 122 in 2005, and 132 so far this season.

 

Looks pretty similar there to me.

 

I don't know what ERA+ means.