There will be no more trades for the Sox

[Frankensteiner]

If there are no more moves made, it's just a signal KW and Ozzie prioritize something else (pride? ego? golf buddies?) over winning. I'm not sure how anyone could look at this roster, especially the pitching staff where 4 fishing starters have ERAs above 4.80 (which is beyond horrible), and conclude with a straight face that this is the best roster in the AL.

 

And even then, you don't know how good they'll be once they get back. See Derrek Lee. I'm much more concerned with the Twins than I am the Yankees.

 

Yeah, not like the Yankees kicked our ass without those 2 guys and have a better record on the season than the White Sox.

[Guest JimH]

Right now, they only have two reliable pitchers in Mussina and Wang. Johnson looks injured yesterday, and Wright's been awful recently.

 

Yes, RJ with an iffy back. Lidle is ok, nothing more, he will have his good games and then in other games he will get torched.

 

Again it all comes down to the White Sox playing better, looking at it from a White Sox point of view. They are right there for the wild card. Right there. If they play great the rest of the way they will make it. Scoreboard watching be damned, they have games left vs. Minnesota, NYY, and Toronto. It's incumbent on the White Sox to play well. The managers decisions won't have anywhere near the impact on this team as the players actually playing well will. He actually gave Vazquez a shorter rope today than he did before. He gave him two batters in the 6th and then yanked him. Vazquez's rope will be even shorter his next start.

 

Yasny got crucified on the game thread because he said Gibbons' HR was a pop fly and not indicative of how Vazquez was pitching. I should have stood up for Yasny but I didn't because the game thread crowd has all the answers. If you have a lot of experience watching the game like Yasny does and I do, you know it was a much shorter leash on Vazquez today vs. his last start. Yes, it is a HR no matter what but his option was Cotts ... who can't seem to get lefthanded hitters out. What had Corey done vs. Vazquez, not much. As soon as Vazquez plunked him his butt was out of there. Short leash. Unless I am remembering it wrong.

 

Guillen has a lefthander at his disposal (Cotts) who lately can't seem to get lefthanders out. Stupid pitch to start the sequence to Markakis ... fastball right down the chute. Poorly located. Nothing wrong with a fastball there if it's in on his hands. Further, he decides to try and stay away from Fahey's bat, of all people, trying to get him out on outside crap. These pitchers are not aggressive because they don't have enough confidence. Guillen tries to build their confidence by giving them opportunities, these pitchers are not coming through.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If there are no more moves made, it's just a signal KW and Ozzie prioritize something else (pride? ego? golf buddies?) over winning. I'm not sure how anyone could look at this roster, especially the pitching staff where 4 fishing starters have ERAs above 4.80 (which is beyond horrible), and conclude with a straight face that this is the best roster in the AL.

 

Realism? There's nobody out there we can realistically get (starting pitching wise) that's better than what we have right now.

 

If there are no more moves made, it's just a signal KW and Ozzie prioritize something else (pride? ego? golf buddies?) over winning. I'm not sure how anyone could look at this roster, especially the pitching staff where 4 fishing starters have ERAs above 4.80 (which is beyond horrible), and conclude with a straight face that this is the best roster in the AL.

Yeah, not like the Yankees kicked our ass without those 2 guys and have a better record on the season than the White Sox.

 

Last I checked, one series didn't make a season.

[Wedge]

Realism? There's nobody out there we can realistically get (starting pitching wise) that's better than what we have right now.

 

yes, but if we don't replace 4 pitchers with ERAs over 4.8 that means KW and Ozzie value something other than winning..

[fathom]

Yes, RJ with an iffy back. Lidle is ok, nothing more, he will have his good games and then in other games he will get torched.

 

Again it all comes down to the White Sox playing better, looking at it from a White Sox point of view. They are right there for the wild card. Right there. If they play great the rest of the way they will make it. Scoreboard watching be damned, they have games left vs. Minnesota, NYY, and Toronto. It's incumbent on the White Sox to play well. The managers decisions won't have anywhere near the impact on this team as the players actually playing well will. He actually gave Vazquez a shorter rope today than he did before. He gave him two batters in the 6th and then yanked him. Vazquez's rope will be even shorter his next start.

 

Yasny got crucified on the game thread because he said Gibbons' HR was a pop fly and not indicative of how Vazquez was pitching. I should have stood up for Yasny but I didn't because the game thread crowd has all the answers. If you have a lot of experience watching the game like Yasny does and I do, you know it was a much shorter leash on Vazquez today vs. his last start. Yes, it is a HR no matter what but his option was Cotts ... who can't seem to get lefthanded hitters out. What had Corey done vs. Vazquez, not much. As soon as Vazquez plunked him his butt was out of there. Short leash. Unless I am remembering it wrong.

 

Guillen has a lefthander at his disposal (Cotts) who lately can't seem to get lefthanders out. Stupid pitch to start the sequence to Markakis ... fastball right down the chute. Poorly located. Nothing wrong with a fastball there if it's in on his hands. Further, he decides to try and stay away from Fahey's bat, of all people, trying to get him out on outside crap. These pitchers are not aggressive because they don't have enough confidence. Guillen tries to build their confidence by giving them opportunities, these pitchers are not coming through.

 

The homer was cheap, but the reason you get him out of the game immediately following that is purely for the mental part of it. I actually did notice the quicker hook by Ozzie, and he wasn't the main person that I blamed for the disaster (involving the 6th inning...he made some other terrible decisions today). He was in a bad spot due to the bullpen's inability to get guys out yesterday. Vazquez just has to man up and get some guys out.

[Jordan4life_2007]

yes, but if we don't replace 4 pitchers with ERAs over 4.8 that means KW and Ozzie value something other than winning..

 

LOL. Man, I never thought I would see the day somebody would question whether Kenny frickin' Williams wanted to really win or not. Kenny is the Michael Jordan of GMs when it comes to will to win.

[Milkman delivers]

I think KW doing nothing is a mistake. He needs to be working the phones trying to better this team. This is not 2005. This team has not shown it is better than the rest. As it stands now the Sox are competing with NY and Min for the WC and got swept by both recently. NY has improved themselves, Minnesota might. Overtaking Detroit is a pipedream at this point in time. You should never be satisfied with your roster,no matter what position your club is in.

2 reliable starters. Sounds familiar.

 

If there are no more moves made, it's just a signal KW and Ozzie prioritize something else (pride? ego? golf buddies?) over winning. I'm not sure how anyone could look at this roster, especially the pitching staff where 4 fishing starters have ERAs above 4.80 (which is beyond horrible), and conclude with a straight face that this is the best roster in the AL.

Yeah, not like the Yankees kicked our ass without those 2 guys and have a better record on the season than the White Sox.

[Frankensteiner]

Realism? There's nobody out there we can realistically get (starting pitching wise) that's better than what we have right now.

 

No, but at the least McCarthy should be in the rotation instead of Garcia/Vazquez. Knowing Ozzie, that will only happen if one of those guys is off the roster. And adding a starting pitcher isn't the only way to improve the team.

 

Last I checked, one series didn't make a season.

 

No, but it seems a little ridiculous to say you're not worried about a team which dominated us in a 3 game sweep, added another good player, and has a better overall record. This is the same crap people said about the Tigers earlier in the year. I mean, how can you not be worried about them? They're our competition and ahead of us after 4 months in the season.

 

LOL. Man, I never thought I would see the day somebody would question whether Kenny frickin' Williams wanted to really win or not. Kenny is the Michael Jordan of GMs when it comes to will to win.

 

Kenny Williams might want to win, but it seems as if he'd rather not admit a mistake on Vazquez. Ozzie might want to win, but not at the expense of hurting Freddy's feelings. Or breaking up with his golfing pal. We'll see.

Edited July 31, 2006 by Frankensteiner

[Guest JimH]

The homer was cheap, but the reason you get him out of the game immediately following that is purely for the mental part of it. I actually did notice the quicker hook by Ozzie, and he wasn't the main person that I blamed for the disaster (involving the 6th inning...he made some other terrible decisions today). He was in a bad spot due to the bullpen's inability to get guys out yesterday. Vazquez just has to man up and get some guys out.

 

Actually you have it backwards.

 

The reason you leave him in after a cheap HR is to build his confidence.

 

There is no question, whatsoever, that Guillen is hitching his wagon to these starters, particularly Buehrle, Vazquez, and Garcia. After all, who else does he have? Despite all the assurances from SoxTalk faithful, McCarthy may or may not be better. Based on his performance this weekend, excuse me if I have my doubt. But I love McCarthy, he is the future, and I don't blame this all on him, he is miscast. However he did not get the job done. Therefore get a more apporpriate arm in here and let him start at AAA and build himself up. If he is as great as SoxTalk says he is, he can come up and win some key games in Sept.

 

Guillen did have quicker hook as you said. Although you weren't trumpeting that fact in the game thread, I wish you'd be a bit more consistent with your opinion. I realize the pack mentality is hard to paddle against, witness Yasny bailing out in the midst of a stoning.

 

As for the 9th inning, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. He played the IF in trying to cut off the winning run at the plate. That ball was hit so freaking hard I'm not sure Tadahito would've come up with it anyways. Maybe he would have, and they would've went to extras, assuming they turned the DP. However it is just another example of a White Sox pitcher not executing, and I will also say Jenks has some horsecrap luck ... Gibbons' blooper for example.

 

When he has a beat up and tired and ineffective bullpen ... like he did today ... what do you do? He has a guy in Vazquez who can't seem to avoid trouble in the 6th. He also has a 4 game series staring him in the face vs. a KC team that he'd like to sweep. He needs innings.

 

And the fact he needs effective innings is why they need a long man in the bullpen, they need another quality arm. Hermanson, if healthy, would be perfect. He isn't. This is not Brandon's fault but he needs to be sent down to stretch him out, if these starters either get injured or can't turn it around at this point, get him in there and see what he can do. They will know if he's a good option if he can go to AAA and dominate AAA hitter for 7 innings. Right now they don't know, despite people saying "I'm sure ... it's likely ... he would definitely be better" etc. They need to do this ASAP.

[fathom]

Actually you have it backwards.

 

The reason you leave him in after a cheap HR is to build his confidence.

 

I agree 100 pct that you usually keep pitchers in to get confidence. However, with what's been happening to Vazquez lately, it creates a very unique situation. Maybe Ozzie would have been better off pulling him after he got the first out on Conine that inning, and let Cotts come in to face Patterson (not like Cotts would have got him out ). I'm just shocked that Ozzie gave him the chance to get the loss.

[Guest JimH]

I agree 100 pct that you usually keep pitchers in to get confidence. However, with what's been happening to Vazquez lately, it creates a very unique situation. Maybe Ozzie would have been better off pulling him after he got the first out on Conine that inning, and let Cotts come in to face Patterson (not like Cotts would have got him out ). I'm just shocked that Ozzie gave him the chance to get the loss.

 

That is exactly what I would've done ... yank him after the out on Conine.

 

He can't rely on Cotts to get an out vs. Markakis ... we have problems.

 

However that doesn't absolve Vazquez of the blame of plunking Patterson, it was the same dumb mistake Jenks made plunking Tejada in the 9th. Do you sense a pattern. Pitchers not executing.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I'd probably stick with what we have too. These guys are either gonna turn it around and make it a race, or they're not.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I agree 100 pct that you usually keep pitchers in to get confidence. However, with what's been happening to Vazquez lately, it creates a very unique situation. Maybe Ozzie would have been better off pulling him after he got the first out on Conine that inning, and let Cotts come in to face Patterson (not like Cotts would have got him out ). I'm just shocked that Ozzie gave him the chance to get the loss.

 

 

I don't think its a bad idea to leave Vaz in there in the 6th inning ( on the off chance that he actually makes it through unscathed ) but one baserunner and he needs to be yanked.

[Balta1701]

That is exactly what I would've done ... yank him after the out on Conine.

 

He can't rely on Cotts to get an out vs. Markakis ... we have problems.

 

However that doesn't absolve Vazquez of the blame of plunking Patterson, it was the same dumb mistake Jenks made plunking Tejada in the 9th. Do you sense a pattern. Pitchers not executing.

That's been the pattern almost since April.

[fathom]

That is exactly what I would've done ... yank him after the out on Conine.

 

He can't rely on Cotts to get an out vs. Markakis ... we have problems.

 

However that doesn't absolve Vazquez of the blame of plunking Patterson, it was the same dumb mistake Jenks made plunking Tejada in the 9th. Do you sense a pattern. Pitchers not executing.

 

I've come more around to the lack of players execution. It's just terrible. We talked yesterday about the awful pitch selection. The same thing happened with Jenks hitting Tejada. Jenks best pitch has been his curveball this season. As funny as it sounds, his 97 mph is his set-up pitch. There were too many examples this weekend of not trying to put away the hitter...and it was why every hitter for the Orioles had like 10 hits this wknd.

[Milkman delivers]

Guillen did have quicker hook as you said. Although you weren't trumpeting that fact in the game thread, I wish you'd be a bit more consistent with your opinion. I realize the pack mentality is hard to paddle against, witness Yasny bailing out in the midst of a stoning.

 

I think that's pretty exaggerated. YASNY said the homer was a fluke, and then people disagreed with him and he left. I fail to see how it was a stoning.

[Balta1701]

I've come more around to the lack of players execution. It's just terrible. We talked yesterday about the awful pitch selection. The same thing happened with Jenks hitting Tejada. Jenks best pitch has been his curveball this season. As funny as it sounds, his 97 mph is his set-up pitch. There were too many examples this weekend of not trying to put away the hitter...and it was why every hitter for the Orioles had like 10 hits this wknd.

As far as my eyes could tell, that pitch that hit Tejada was the curve ball?

[Chisoxfn]

I'll actually be surprised if we don't make another trade for a reliever, especially after what happened this wknd.

I think we have the arms here so unless we are going to go out and swap starters with someone I really don't see us doing anything.

[fathom]

As far as my eyes could tell, that pitch that hit Tejada was the curve ball?

 

Nope, it was a 98 mph that missed its spot by 3 feet.

[Balta1701]

I think we have the arms here so unless we are going to go out and swap starters with someone I really don't see us doing anything.

At this point, I'm still really scared to stand pat. This team just does not look like a championship team. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like one because it can't pitch, and the only guy out there who can help with that would be a terrible acquisition (Zito).

[Guest JimH]

I think that's pretty exaggerated. YASNY said the homer was a fluke, and then people disagreed with him and he left. I fail to see how it was a stoning.

 

Whatever you say. Fine by me, I made my point and I'll stand by it. His (Yasny's) point was actually bigger picture and I agree with him 100%. Agree to disagree.

[Chisoxfn]

At this point, I'm still really scared to stand pat. This team just does not look like a championship team. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like one because it can't pitch, and the only guy out there who can help with that would be a terrible acquisition (Zito).

We can't go out and acquire a new pitching staff, either the starters turn it around and we do good or they don't and some changes will be made.

[Balta1701]

Nope, it was a 98 mph that missed its spot by 3 feet.

How in the world did Tejada's arm avoid snapping in half then?

[fathom]

How in the world did Tejada's arm avoid snapping in half then?

 

It barely got him.

[Guest JimH]

Nope, it was a 98 mph that missed its spot by 3 feet.

 

No. It was the heater as you correctly state, he wanted to come inside, and got too far inside. He was geeked up I'd imagine and it ran too far in. A mistake. Lack of execution.

 

I know some on this site think Hawk Harrelson is senile but once again he made a great point today. He said they Sox pitchers are throwing too many pitches to these hitters and they are relying too much on these hitters to get themselves out. He said, and I agree with him, they need to go right at these guys a lot more aggressively. And that means pitching inside more, which is an entirely different topic for an entirely different thread.