Ahh Mariotti's Back...

[LVSoxFan]

I agree with you Milkman; I guess what I'm saying is that Buehrle is sort of the lynchpin of the rotation--his consistency is what it's built around and it's what served us so well last year.

 

So to you others; I respect your opinions sincerely, but again: I stand by my statement.

 

I will impart some good news; I was watching a piece on the Twins the other night and they were talking about their struggles in the beginning. One of them, and I quote, was "Our pitching was a mess." Now look at them. So I'm not waving any white flags here...

Edited August 1, 2006 by LVSoxFan

[Steff]

So to you others; I respect your opinions sincerely, but again: I stand by my statement.

 

 

Well.. you're crazy so it doesn't matter what you think.

[YASNY]

I would say, "as the rotation goes, so go the White Sox."

 

But, that could be said of any team in baseball.

 

When the Sox rotation was just mediocre in the beginning of the year, the team rolled because the offense could cover that up. Ever since the rotation has been bad, the team has struggled because our great offense still isn't enough to mask such terrible pitching.

 

Okay. Here's my thinking on the Buehrle remark. If you recall last year, Mark was pitching quickly and going inside. He was therefore effective. Then it seemed Garland took the same approach and had a great first half. It seemed to cause the rest of the rotation to get the competitive edge with each other, and it steamrolled from there. So Mark started the ball rolling in 2005. The rotation this year has been hit or miss, inconsistant until Buehrle started struggling. Then it seemed like like rest of the rotation took a nose dive, with the exception of Garland, who for some strange reason, started pitching better.

[Milkman delivers]

Okay. Here's my thinking on the Buehrle remark. If you recall last year, Mark was pitching quickly and going inside. He was therefore effective. Then it seemed Garland took the same approach and had a great first half. It seemed to cause the rest of the rotation to get the competitive edge with each other, and it steamrolled from there. So Mark started the ball rolling in 2005. The rotation this year has been hit or miss, inconsistant until Buehrle started struggling. Then it seemed like like rest of the rotation took a nose dive, with the exception of Garland, who for some strange reason, started pitching better.

 

Good argument. I guess the only way we'll know for sure is if Buehrle goes out there today and tosses a gem, causing the rest of the rotation to fall in line and put us on an enormous winning streak.

 

Yep, even I can find some hope.

[YASNY]

Good argument. I guess the only way we'll know for sure is if Buehrle goes out there today and tosses a gem, causing the rest of the rotation to fall in line and put us on an enormous winning streak.

 

Yep, even I can find some hope.

 

Always have hope.

[Steff]

Always have hope.

 

 

 

Pffttt.. this year is over baybeee.

[YASNY]

Pffttt.. this year is over baybeee.

 

Not till the math says it's over .... baybeee

[Guest JimH]

We need to adopt a board memorandum to permanently remove all arguments which cite last season.

 

Including Brandon McCarthy absolutely positively being a better starting option than Vazquez or Garcia because he had 2-3 good starts last August.

[CanOfCorn]

I wouldn't expect Santana or Liriano to experience a "Buehrle slump" (which completely redefines slump, because slumps typically END within several starts) anytime soon. I'd like to see either give up more than 5 ER in ANY game pitched, let alone five straight.

 

 

Well Santana only started starting full-time since the middle of 2003 and Liriano is a rookie. Buehrle has 5 + seasons of 200+ IP, sooo, unfortunately, this argument doesn't work. Randy Johnson was having a rough year before he went from Seattle to Houston. Roger Clemens had a rough year in 1999 and I think a bad one with the Red Sox. It happens...and unless he's injured and not telling anybody, or doesn't know, MB will bounce back. It just may not be this year. And you know what? That's ok. He's earned an off-year after being a workhorse for 5+ and helping us win a World Series. I would be more lenient with MB more than any other of our pitchers.

 

And yes, MB is the heart of the rotation. As he goes...so goes the rotation.

[LVSoxFan]

Thank you, COC!

 

[Flash Tizzle]

Including Brandon McCarthy absolutely positively being a better starting option than Vazquez or Garcia because he had 2-3 good starts last August.

More than Brandon's success last season is the failures of our current rotation. Myself, and others, aren't using it alone as proof everything would turn around -- just that what's out there right now isn't working. I believe it's different than suggesting how "Buehrle was pivotal to our success last year, so therefore he must be again."

[fathom]

More than Brandon's success last season is the failures of our current rotation. Myself, and others, aren't using it alone as proof everything would turn around -- just that what's out there right now isn't working. I believe it's different than suggesting how "Buehrle was pivotal to our success last year, so therefore he must be again."

 

I was very impressed with McCarthy last night. He seemed to pitch with more confidence. Maybe the trade deadline being over helped him relax, or maybe his awful outing in Baltimore might have made him pick up his game.

[My Dixie Normus]

Just because a pitching and hitting slump happened to coincide with the trade dead line does not mean that you disregard the 62 wins you had to this point of the season. Before the Boston series, pre ASG, I don't think anyone was concerned. We have had a slump. Most teams do. The Twins had theirs pretty early. The Yankees, BoSox and Tigers will have their rough patch too. We just need to get out of it, which I think we have, and capitalize when those other teams have theirs.

[LVSoxFan]

Yes Brandon did seem like he was on a mission last night, like: "Try and hit THIS you mother******ers!"

 

[Milkman delivers]

Of course it is no certain thing that McCarthy will be better than Vazquez, but it was be extremely tough for him to be worse.

 

One thing that is for certain, though, is that Vazquez is not going to turn himself around. He is what he is...trash.

[LVSoxFan]

Well there's about three "Let's put Vasquez in the bullpen!" threads if you'd care to indulge...

 

[Milkman delivers]

Well there's about three "Let's put Vasquez in the bullpen!" threads if you'd care to indulge...

 

 

That'll never happen, though it should. It won't happen because he simply makes too much money to relegate him to the bullpen. Also, his trade value would be shot.

 

I see it as a sunk cost. No matter where Javy pitches, he's going to be making the same amount of money. We're paying it one way or another. So, why not put him into the bullpen where he would have a good chance to succeed (because he does so well the first two times through the order), and bring in someone who is more likely to succeed out of the rotation in McCarthy? Let's face it, his trade value is on life support anyway. There was a quote from a scout that someone posted saying something along the lines of the entire baseball world finally figuring out that Javy will never live up to his potential.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. We'll never put him into the pen.

[Flash Tizzle]

Well Santana only started starting full-time since the middle of 2003 and Liriano is a rookie. Buehrle has 5 + seasons of 200+ IP, sooo, unfortunately, this argument doesn't work. Randy Johnson was having a rough year before he went from Seattle to Houston. Roger Clemens had a rough year in 1999 and I think a bad one with the Red Sox. It happens...and unless he's injured and not telling anybody, or doesn't know, MB will bounce back. It just may not be this year. And you know what? That's ok. He's earned an off-year after being a workhorse for 5+ and helping us win a World Series. I would be more lenient with MB more than any other of our pitchers.

 

And yes, MB is the heart of the rotation. As he goes...so goes the rotation.

You can save yourself time right now, because I doubt a healthy Santana or Liriano give up five consecutive outtings of 5 or more earned runs. Perhaps a healthy Buehrle wouldn't either, and this "slump" he's been through can be explained with some sort of injury.

 

Clemens and Johnson had their troubles -- but again -- did either have five consecutive piss-poor pitching performances? From a pitcher of his caliber, and what he'll be paid next season and beyond, we shouldn't be accepting this.

 

As I said in the gameday chat last week, either Buehrle has mentally collapsed, is injured, or there's one hell of a scouting report available on him. I'm not giving Mark any grace period or leniencey because of last season. This is a pitcher who'll command a four year deal on the open market, and 8/9 million next season. Time to man up and pitch like the starter we expect him to be.

[LVSoxFan]

That'll never happen, though it should. It won't happen because he simply makes too much money to relegate him to the bullpen. Also, his trade value would be shot.

 

I see it as a sunk cost. No matter where Javy pitches, he's going to be making the same amount of money. We're paying it one way or another. So, why not put him into the bullpen where he would have a good chance to succeed (because he does so well the first two times through the order), and bring in someone who is more likely to succeed out of the rotation in McCarthy? Let's face it, his trade value is on life support anyway. There was a quote from a scout that someone posted saying something along the lines of the entire baseball world finally figuring out that Javy will never live up to his potential.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. We'll never put him into the pen.

 

Oh I agree, and it's a shame that considerations other than winning are preventing us from doing so.

 

So that leaves us with hoping that Buehrle is returned by the aliens who abducted him, and hoping that the five hole (actually should we call it the five-and-dive hole this year?) won't sink us in '06 like it did in '04.

[zygoat]

mariotti did what anyone could do by saying we didnt trade anyone. I think Kenny did the right thing by not trading anyone and having the same group get their act together and start playing. Kenny, i believe, is trying to keep the chemistry and the confidence in everyone

[Guest JimH]

I was very impressed with McCarthy last night. He seemed to pitch with more confidence. Maybe the trade deadline being over helped him relax, or maybe his awful outing in Baltimore might have made him pick up his game.

 

Yes he did a nice job.

 

Maybe it was a weaker Royals lineup that gave him more confidence, but he is an extremely competitive guy and it was good to see.

[Queen Prawn]

Actually as of the last two months or so, the stats say the Royals have been one of the best in terms of scoring runs (or something like that is what Hawk and DJ said last night).

[LVSoxFan]

Yes the Royals have been hot lately, and as somebody who's been to three games there in KC and we've lost them all, they're not as dog**** as everybody makes them out to be. Record notwithstanding.

 

On any given day...

 

Besides, a win is a win...

[CWSGuy406]

Yes he did a nice job.

 

Maybe it was a weaker Royals lineup that gave him more confidence, but he is an extremely competitive guy and it was good to see.

 

More than anything, with McCarthy, it looked like he had a plan last night. You saw him doing two things; hit his spots, and set up pitches. For example, to one hitter last night, he threw two fastballs at the hitters eyes, only to get the K with an offspeed pitch low in the zone on the next pitch.

 

Which brings up a whole 'nother discussion -- the pitch selection. As much as our starting pitching has been bad, the pitch selection (outside of Garland's latest starts) has been brutal. So many instances over the past couple days where I'm thinking to myself, "WTF are you doing?":

 

-There was an AB in the Baltimore series to Melvin Mora. It was early on in the game, not really an important plate appearance at all. But Vazquez (I think it was Javy, though I might be wrong) had gotten ahead on Mora 0-2. His third pitch? A two-seamer trying to catch the upper, outside part of the plate, allowing Mora to extend his hands and just push the ball into RF.

 

-Yesterday, early in the game, Contreras had Costa down 0-2. Costa fouled off some tough pitches up in the zone, and the Sox bailed him out by trying to place a fastball away.

 

Maybe it isn't that easy, but once you have the guy on the ropes (ie in a 1-2, 0-2 count), don't you want to go soft away (changeups, sliders, curves, forkballs) and hard in (running that two seamer or four seamer in on the hands)? I can't remember once this year when Vazquez got a guy in an 0-2 count, and actually used the next couple pitches to set up his slider. I know he's hit a lot of guys this year, but he has good control, and, just as important, he has good movement on his fastball. If he's scared of pitching inside, then you might as well trade him now, because he's practically useless as a pitcher.

 

I'm one of the few who still believes that Javy can still be a decent starting pitcher for the White Sox. Why? His stuff still rates better than any starter on our staff outside of Contreras; good movement on his fastball, nasty slider, decent changeup. It's not like his stuff deteriorates once he gets past the fifth inning, either; he just seems to hang more pitches. But it also seems to me that the he tries to get the same hitters out the same way he did through the first time through the order. If that plan was a good one (like, pitching inside, breaking more bats, using the slider down and away), that'd be one thing -- but his plan, as of right now, sucks.

 

Bleh -- that's a lot of typing.

Edited August 1, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[RockRaines]

I wouldn't expect Santana or Liriano to experience a "Buehrle slump" (which completely redefines slump, because slumps typically END within several starts) anytime soon. I'd like to see either give up more than 5 ER in ANY game pitched, let alone five straight.

Well, in 04 in April and May Santana posted ERAs of 5.40 and 5.79. That would be a two month slump, no?